Hail Mary and "amongst" women

[AlanFromWichita]

Does anyone else share the pet peeves I have about saying the Hail Mary in groups? If not, would anybody please consider doing so?

First, is this “amongst” women. I’m not sure what version of the prayer that’s from, but it’s annoying. Yes, when I’m supposed to be praying I’m bracing myself to hear random “ST” sounds around the room after “among.”

Arrrgh. :banghead:

Second, I swear Mary must have a womb named Jesus by the way I hear them say, “blessed is the fruit of THY WOMB JESUS.”

Gosh, if they’d actually observe the comma and say, “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,” as if Jesus was the fruit and not the NAME of the womb, it’s be more convincing that the words they utter actually mean anything.

Arrrgh. Arrrgh.

Perhaps for meditative prayer the meanings of the words themselves are unimportant. If they are, maybe we’d be better off just chanting Latin than trying to name the parts of our blessed mother’s anatomy.

Actually I do have a theory about it; in music there is a little known secret to the “irresistable beat” where shorter notes are “owned” by the longer one following. In this case, “Jesus” is the end of the phrase and is a longer word than the six preceding, so it’s kind of a natural musical reaction to it. Still drives me crazy, because I think punctuation is important even in spoken prayer. My second theory is that it’s entirely phonetic and most people don’t even consider what they are saying, so the fact they say it strangely doesn’t cause a glitch.

Alan

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Judith 13.18
Then said Ozias unto her, O daughter, blessed art thou of the most high God above all the women upon the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, which hath created the heavens and the earth, which hath directed thee to the cutting off of the head of the chief of our enemies.

 

[puzzleannie]

whatever, Daniel. I believe that story is a prefigure of Mary who through her fiat crushes the head of the enemy under her heel. Yes, I know all about the he vs she controversy in the relevant verse in Genesis, spare us the details, the point is that through the sin of Eve the serpent prevailed and through the obedience of Mary the enemy is defeated.

Alan, I feel your pain, I avoid public recitations of the rosary for that reason (not amongst by itself, but the tendency to fit 5 decades into 7 minutes or less that prevails here. especially in Spanish.) Also, since the basic prayers were re-written somewhere along with other revisions, and children are being taught the dumbed-down versions, nobody is sayng the same prayers any more, but that’s okay, it is the same way at Lourdes or any international venue like WYD. I lead rosaries at wakes when no one else is available (it’s not my job, man) and use a scriptural rosary guide that slows things down a bit.

 

[Timidity]

AlanFromWichita:

First, is this “amongst” women. I’m not sure what version of the prayer that’s from, but it’s annoying. Yes, when I’m supposed to be praying I’m bracing myself to hear random “ST” sounds around the room after "among.

“Amongst” is a word still very commonly used in British English. It was, presumably, also a common usuage here in days past.

The century-old Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent uses “amongst” in its article on the Hail Mary.

If one says “thou” and “thy” instead of “you” and “your” then “amongst” is more aesthetically appealing than “among”.

 

[K-McD]

Actually, the only problem I have in saying the “Hail Mary” in group settings is they say it toooooooo fast. Allthewordsareblurredtogether. I was taught saying the “Hail Mary” should be like driving or walking by a beautiful sunset or sunrise. One slows down and takes it all in.

When I pray the rosary in church with the other seasoned ladies, I think I drive them bats because they are done and waiting on the next bead and I’m still at, “…now and at the hour of our death. Amen”

K

 

[asteroid]

When I’m being good and actually thinking about what I’m saying I tend to lag a bit behind on ALL the responses in the Mass. How anyone can think about what they are saying/praying and not just do the vocal motions is beyond me with the speeds people race at. The mass is not a race. It is allowable for it to take a few minutes longer and think about things even if some people will complain when a full sung Sunday mass takes over 60 minutes.

 

[Timidity]

K-McD:

I was taught saying the “Hail Mary” should be like driving or walking by a beautiful sunset or sunrise. One slows down and takes it all in.

Not during the Rosary. One should be thinking about the mstery–not the words that they’re saying.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

“Amongst” is a word still very commonly used in British English. It was, presumably, also a common usuage here in days past.

The century-old Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent uses “amongst” in its article on the Hail Mary.

If one says “thou” and “thy” instead of “you” and “your” then “amongst” is more aesthetically appealing than “among”.

Thank you for the information. I have noticed that often people mix the old and new pronouns as well, not just in the Hail Mary.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Several have mentioned about it being said phonetically.

I think in the CCC, when they talk about the three types of prayer, (vocal, meditative, or contemplative) the Rosary is usually considered meditative. It doesn’t seem to be totally conscious vocal prayer, and it certainly isn’t silent prayer.

Another place I have a difficult time is in making the sign of the cross at a meal prayer. When I grew up, my family mostly made quick pointy motions and my mom said, “Fa, suh, ho speartamen” and so with my family I still feel awkward actually saying out longhand or something, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” It seems, compared to my upbringing, to be an endless thing to say – funny five seconds can feel like an hour when I am embarrassed.

I hate embarrassment. I hope being embarrassed is a sin so I can have an excuse to quit doing it…

Alan

 

[Lapsed]

I guess I’m one of the annoying ones because I tend to pray the older versions of most of the standard prayers.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

It drives me nuts to here the modernized language, so I guess we’re even.

Of course, the solution is to say the tradtional prayers in Latin

Ave Maria, gratia plena. Dominus tecum…

 

[wisdom_3_5]

My grandmother taught me the Hail Mary and she always said amongst, so that’s how Iearned it. When I pray in groups I do say among now, but I think I still say amongst when praying alone. Just a habit I guess.

 

[Fidelis]

AlanFromWichita:

Thank you for the information. I have noticed that often people mix the old and new pronouns as well, not just in the Hail Mary.

Alan

This is what tends to be distracting for me (mea culpa–I’m as guilty as the next guy ). Same with the St. Michael the Archangel and Glory Be prayers.

I guess all participants could make a pact or hand out written cards of the version they agree on, but even if everyone agreed (some people are especially fond of the version they use) it would seem a bit forced, at least for a while.

 

[javelin]

AlanFromWichita:

Another place I have a difficult time is in making the sign of the cross at a meal prayer. When I grew up, my family mostly made quick pointy motions and my mom said, “Fa, suh, ho speartamen” and so with my family I still feel awkward actually saying out longhand or something, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” It seems, compared to my upbringing, to be an endless thing to say – funny five seconds can feel like an hour when I am embarrassed.

I’m totally the opposite with my family – I slowly say “In the name of God the Father, and Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” The more explicit language is for the benefit of my young children (3 and 5).

When I’m not with them, I revert back to what I said growing up, which is exactly as you posted. I tend to do it quickly, too .

Peace,
javelin

 

[Ignatius]

AlanFromWichita:

Does anyone else share the pet peeves I have about saying the Hail Mary in groups? If not, would anybody please consider doing so?

First, is this “amongst” women. I’m not sure what version of the prayer that’s from, but it’s annoying. Yes, when I’m supposed to be praying I’m bracing myself to hear random “ST” sounds around the room after “among.”

It is actually a corruption that came from a colloquialism out of the Midwest. The proper English is among.

 

[JimG]

For some reason, it also bothers me that in public recitation of the rosary, we put in the “amen” at the end of the Hail Mary, but not at the end of the Our Father. I knew a priest once who had this as a pet peeve. Ever since, I’ve always tried to make sure the Our Father also gets an amen.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Does anyone else share the pet peeves I have about saying the Hail Mary in groups? If not, would anybody please consider doing so?

First, is this “amongst” women. I’m not sure what version of the prayer that’s from, but it’s annoying. Yes, when I’m supposed to be praying I’m bracing myself to hear random “ST” sounds around the room after “among.”

Arrrgh. :banghead:

Second, I swear Mary must have a womb named Jesus by the way I hear them say, “blessed is the fruit of THY WOMB JESUS.”

Gosh, if they’d actually observe the comma and say, “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,” as if Jesus was the fruit and not the NAME of the womb, it’s be more convincing that the words they utter actually mean anything.

Arrrgh. Arrrgh.

Perhaps for meditative prayer the meanings of the words themselves are unimportant. If they are, maybe we’d be better off just chanting Latin than trying to name the parts of our blessed mother’s anatomy.

Actually I do have a theory about it; in music there is a little known secret to the “irresistable beat” where shorter notes are “owned” by the longer one following. In this case, “Jesus” is the end of the phrase and is a longer word than the six preceding, so it’s kind of a natural musical reaction to it. Still drives me crazy, because I think punctuation is important even in spoken prayer. My second theory is that it’s entirely phonetic and most people don’t even consider what they are saying, so the fact they say it strangely doesn’t cause a glitch.

Alan

Hi Alan…just got round to answering this, although I sighted it a day or two ago. I am a ‘grater on the nerves’ as I was an ST person , until I read your Post…the situation is now amended! …I think I’ve said ‘amongst’ ever since I learnt the Hail Mary way back in the depths of childhood.
As for ‘of your womb Jesus’…I have long thought of it as if the angel said to Mary: “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb”
… to which Mary in immediate obedient Faith and trust asks: “What shall I call him”
and the angel replies “Jesus”.
Hence when writing the Hail Mary I was prone to: “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb…Jesus”. But to correct my position I now write: “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus”

…but I had a real giggle at your insightful interpretation of “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus”! and the meaning thence such a statement would infer!
Punctuation is a wondrous tool and can change completely the meaning of a sentence as you cleverly and very funnily pointed out.

Thanks for sortin me out and as I laughed, Alan…few indeed can!

Regards…Barb
PS…but all in all, its the intention that counts and not detracting in the least from your insight and humour.:bigyikes:

 

[Flopfoot]

I am exactly the same on the first point Alan! I can’t stand ‘amongst’! My brother and sister use it even though my mum and dad don’t, but I never made an issue of it (I wanted to though) because I thought that it’s probably the correct pronunciation and most people just don’t use it. Thanks Ignatius for clearing that up, I’ll bring it up and hopefully they will listen to me next time we pray the rosary together and we’ll be free of that word.

As for the comma, never noticed that before, but it’s not the kind of thing that would bother me.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Flopfoot:

I am exactly the same on the first point Alan! I can’t stand ‘amongst’! My brother and sister use it even though my mum and dad don’t, but I never made an issue of it (I wanted to though) because I thought that it’s probably the correct pronunciation and most people just don’t use it. Thanks Ignatius for clearing that up, I’ll bring it up and hopefully they will listen to me next time we pray the rosary together and we’ll be free of that word.

As for the comma, never noticed that before, but it’s not the kind of thing that would bother me.

Perhaps it has been the case of a ‘pebble in a still lake’ - chuck in a pebble and the ripples ever widen across the surface.

Probably many are confused between what is correct grammar ‘among’ or ‘amongst’ (like me! ) and in praying the Hail Mary hearing the ST part probably correct ‘among’ to the incorrect ‘amongst’ and so it starts to catch on. It is simply a point of correct grammar. ST has a particular sound emphasis by comparison with the balance of a word when spoken aloud.
As for ‘thy womb Jesus’ as against a comma between ‘womb’ and Jesus…it could be a typing overlook or whatever, or it could be a failure to insight what the lack of any punctuation at all between the two actually means in terms of interpretation. Again, simply a grammatical error.

But if I am going to pray the Hail Mary, then I think I should learn to say it correctly and with insight into meaning. I was grateful to be put right on the score…and I hope the correcting of matters and on the internet will be another pebble in the pool effect and will spread.

Good thread Alan!..when I first read your Opening Post I had to laugh because I was guilty on the score!..after that is the barb at being wrong had played itself out.

Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lapsed:

It drives me nuts to here the modernized language, so I guess we’re even.

Of course, the solution is to say the tradtional prayers in Latin

Ave Maria, gratia plena. Dominus tecum…

This is an excellent response to a rant that for a while I almost wished I hadn’t started!

Alan

 

[Marilena]

AlanFromWichita:

Thank you for the information. I have noticed that often people mix the old and new pronouns as well, not just in the Hail Mary.

Alan

this is how I say the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is wit thee; blessed art thou
among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death.

Amen.