Hail Mary- Biblical support?

[musicgal4jesus]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing. Here’s what one of my friends said:

maybe what i don’t like about it is the name–“Hail Mary” sounds like worshiping someone besides the true God (and i think all of us would agree that according to the Bible that is forbidden). According to the dictionary, hail means a salutation or acclamation. so its like saying “Hello Mary”? ok, so you think Mary’s awesome. why not just pray to God/Jesus and say “thanks for Mary, she was an awesome person.” instead of devoting a prayer to her—why pray to a dead person when Jesus is readily available?

it seems like playing in a mud puddle when you could be swimming in the ocean.

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

 

[handyman_jim]

Luke 1:28, Luke1:42

 

[phoage]

Protestants say many of the same things about Praying to saints also. Here is the Catholic take on this as I under stand it.

1. Per the apostle’s Creed; I believe in …the communion of saints. All Christians, living, those in Purgatory and those in Heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.
2. The departed can pray for and to others. (LK 16:19-30)
3. We (still on Earth) can pray for others. (Rom 15:30, Col4:3)
4. Mary is Christ’s mother. (Lk 1:43).
5. Christ was dutiful to his mother. (Lk 2:51, Jn 2:3-11)

The Hail Mary is a petition to Mary, the Mother for Christ, to intercede for us with her son (Pray for us sinners, now and forever.) From scripture, it seems that she may, if she chooses, petition in our name, and if so, her Son will hear her and not refuse her this as he never refused her in life.

The above listing of scripture is by no way inclusive, just the bare minimum to show the point.

 

[jujubee]

firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit,

That’s funny. When I was going to an Evangelical church, every sermon was a series of cut and pasted verses from all over the bible designed to fit the point that the pastor wanted to make. Protestants are really good at this. Roman’s Road, anyone?

 

[patrick457]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing.

Here’s my take:
The early Christians did a lot of “cut-and-paste” (remember however that originally, there were no chapter-and-verse divisions in the Bible!) in their prayers and writings. For example, in every Mass, we sing the Gloria in Excelsis, itself a very old hymn that is thought to date back to the earliest days of Christianity:

“Glory in the highest to God, and on earth peace, goodwill towards men (Luke 2:14).”
We praise you; we bless you; we worship you; we glorify you; we give thanks to you for your great glory.
Lord God, King of heaven, God the Father Almighty.
Lord, the Only-Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father “who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29),” have mercy on us;
You who take away the sins of the world, receive our supplication;
You “who sit at the right hand of the Father (cf. Mark 16:19),” have mercy on us.
For you alone are Holy, you alone are Lord, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit – “to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:11).” Amen.

In the Eastern Orthodox version, this is followed by the following:

“Every day I will bless you, and I will praise your name to the ages and to the ages of ages.” (Psalm 145:2) Amen.
Grant, Lord, that in this day, we may be kept without sin.
“Blessed are you, Lord, the God of our fathers, and praised and glorified is your Name to the ages!” (cf. Daniel 3:52*) Amen.
Blessed are you, Lord; “teach me your statutes!” (Psalm 119:26)
Blessed are you, Lord; teach me your statutes!
Blessed are you, Lord; teach me your statutes!
“Lord, you have become a refuge for us from generation to generation.” (Psalm 89/90:1)
“I have said: ‘Lord, have mercy on me; heal my soul for I have sinned against you.’” (Psalm 40:5/41:4)
“Lord, to you have I fled; teach me to do your will, for you are my God.” (Psalm 142/143:9b-10a)
“For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light. Extend your mercy to those who know you!” (Psalms 35:10-11a/36:9-10a)

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!

*Not included in Protestant Bibles

So, would they object to these types of hymns?

maybe what i don’t like about it is the name–“Hail Mary” sounds like worshiping someone besides the true God (and i think all of us would agree that according to the Bible that is forbidden). According to the dictionary, hail means a salutation or acclamation. so its like saying “Hello Mary”? ok, so you think Mary’s awesome. why not just pray to God/Jesus and say “thanks for Mary, she was an awesome person.” instead of devoting a prayer to her—why pray to a dead person when Jesus is readily available?

Yep. Mary’s awesome. After all, she was the one woman in the world who got to have the incarnate Son of God within and in front of her 24/7 for most of her life.
As for the “dead person” thing, I think Jesus said it best:

But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, at the bush where he calls the Lord “the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all live.

-Luke 20:37-38

All the righteous in the Heavens are not really “dead” (save in the bodily sense) - they are more alive than us here on earth, and are in the presence of the living God of the living!

Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed ‘alive’!

Then Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise up again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise up again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he dies, will live; and whoever lives and believes in me will not die for ever. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes Lord, I believe that you are the Anointed One, the Son of God - He who comes into the world.”

-John 11:21-27

Surely Mary had faith in Jesus, did she not?

 

[GeorgeSword]

It’s not as though ever prayer we say has to be out of the Bible, is it? Does your friend pray only the Psalms and the Our Father? It doesn’t matter if a prayer contains pieces cut and pasted, as he put it. They are still just as true together as seperated. It’s not like we’re twisting it to mean something different. The Hail Mary is a Biblical prayer.
Now, I could go into a lot of stuff on how prayer to the Blessed Mother and saints is different from prayer to God (I.E. we are only asking them to pray for us, not praying to them) but I’ve said that before, and it’s readily avaliable information if your friend wishes to seek it out.

 

[diggerdomer]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing. Here’s what one of my friends said:

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

If your Protestant friends really believe the Lord’s Prayer is all in one passage, ask them to compare Luke and Matthew’s versions.

 

[Pons]

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!

This is strikingly similar to part of the Divine Mercy Chaplet a.k.a. the 3 o’clock Prayer:

“Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

 

[Huiou_Theou]

From what manuscripts exist – it is cut and paste – but it is not “pick and choose”.
The only part of the prayer one can really dispute – is the name Mary being in the prayer. That was NOT the original prayer, and is a later addition. Mary’s name in the annunciation is – she who has been perfectly endowed with grace.
That is – the part of the prayer “Hail, Full of Grace” is a title the angel attributes to Mary. Non-Catholic translators are the ones who “change scripture” by adding the word “Daughter” as in “Highly favored daughter” – that word is nowhere in the passage in the original Greek and is an interpolation that ignores what was actually said.

But, more importantly, is the credentials of those who spoke the words and the context of both parts of the prayer that really matter. The first part of the prayer was spoken by the power of God through the mouth of his angel to Mary concerning the word becoming her child.
The second passage is the recognition by Elizabeth; but not her human recognition – rather, scripture says that the Holy Spirit inspired (breathed) through her. Check the text…

And again, Elizabeth, is speaking of the motherhood of the child – Just as the angel spoke of Mary at the annunciation. In these two passages we are certain of the nature of the words spoken – that is that they spoken by God – as Mary’s en-titlement.

Scripture records the words of liars, Just/Honest men, agnostics; One must look carefully at what is drawn out of Scripture – and regarding the Hail Full of Grace – the author of the prayer knew what they were doing.

Amen.

 

[hawkeye]

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

Was the Angel praying to Mary too ? if we read out this piece of Scripture, whats wrong with that, Elizabeth Her cousin said She was Blessed, the Church which Christ gave authority added the rest.

What Catholics quote in the Haily Mary is Biblical, apart from the end bit, but Jesus gave authority for full stops and comma’s.

 

[musicgal4jesus]

Thanks so much for your help, everyone! If you have any more suggestions or verses to look up, keep 'em coming. I really appreciate the help!

 

[thistle]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing. Here’s what one of my friends said:

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

Biblical Origins of the “Hail Mary.”

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28, Luke 1:48)

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” (Luke 1:42)

“Holy Mary, Mother of God.” (Luke 1:43)

“Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” (John 19: 26-27).

 

[incense]

This is how I made my protestant friend, at least less hostile to praying to Mary.

I knew that her grandmother was exceptionally attentive, loving and giving to her. Her grandmother had passed away. I asked her if she thought her grandmother who was now in heaven didnt’ give a hoot about what happened to her, but was busy with her new life in heaven. Oh no, she’s sure her grandmother still loves her. So I asked, so do you think your grandmother who loves you and is in heaven and has direct access to Jesus, doesn’t mention your needs to Him? No, she couldnt’ imagine that. Well, Catholics believe that the people in heaven are part of the communion of saints and do pray for us, and we should ask them to pray for us. God allows them to hear our requests for prayer. It’s a gift he gives to his saints in heaven, the ability to love and give to us. Because He doesn’t need them to do it, it’s a gift to them. Just like He doesn’t need people on Earth praying for each other, it’s a gift to us to be able to pray for each other, to give to each other.

And I like to ask for prayers from the greatest prayer partner in heaven, Jesus’ mother.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing. Here’s what one of my friends said:

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

Others have addressed teh biblical passages quite well so will not comment on these other than to say that there is also support for prayers for the dead in Maccabees (sorry I don’t know specifically where)
Also, in it’s most basic form, asking Mary to pray for us is no different than asking ourn neighbor or pastor to pray for us, or to keep us in their prayers. If your protestant friends do not believe that the dead are in heaven yet, (and some do believe this) then the issue isn’t the Hail Mary, but rather the communion of Saints.

But to address the specific points you posted from them,

maybe what i don’t like about it is the name–“Hail Mary” sounds like worshiping someone besides the true God (and i think all of us would agree that according to the Bible that is forbidden).

They’re right - by just looking at the title it can “Sound like” this. But sounding like and actually being something are two different things. As an example, If I see a man in the park with his 6 year old daughter and they are laughing, and skipping around and having a grand time, I could well say of them, “My what a gay couple”. In today’s society what I just said could be heard differently than how I meant it. Particularly to someone who did not see the man and his daughter. So one should not go by what something “Sounds like”

According to the dictionary, hail means a salutation or acclamation. so its like saying “Hello Mary”?

Precisely, and Hail is the word used by the Angel.

ok, so you think Mary’s awesome. why not just pray to God/Jesus and say “thanks for Mary, she was an awesome person.” instead of devoting a prayer to her—why pray to a dead person when Jesus is readily available?

Well the first answer I would have to give here is that Mary is not dead. She is very much alive and with the Father Son and Holy Spirit in Heaven. So we are not praying to a dead person.
Secondly, and I would say this to anyone, catholic or noncatholic, if you prefer to pray directly to the Father or directly to Jesus please do so. There is nothing in the Dogma’s of the Church that require one to pray privately to Mary or any other saint.
These things are encouraged due to the great power of the united prayers of God’s people but they are not a requirement of faith. So in our private prayer life we are free to pray as we choose and in the way that helps us the most.
(Personally I pray primarily to Our Father as Jesus Taught us to and mostly it is just short ejaculations of thanks.)

it seems like playing in a mud puddle when you could be swimming in the ocean

This is creating a distinction in heaven that does not exist. Each and Every person in Heaven is part of God’s Glorious and Perfect Love. There can be no “Mud Puddle” vs “Ocean” in heaven. Thus every saint, is equal in Love and dignity before the throne of the Almighty God.
So -
Mary is Alive, not dead, and she is in Heaven.
Mary can pray for us in Heaven just well, or better, than those still here on earth.
Heaven is a place of Perfect Love, the Love of those in Heaven extends to those on Earth.
Their desire is to help us reach heaven and they offer prayer and petition before God for this purpose. Thus our Prayers to the Saints in Heaven, are maginfied by those Glorious Saints praying in Perfect Love before Our Heavenly King - Asking for Grace and Mercy upon us.

I hope some of this helps

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

This is how I made my protestant friend, at least less hostile to praying to Mary.

I knew that her grandmother was exceptionally attentive, loving and giving to her. Her grandmother had passed away. I asked her if she thought her grandmother who was now in heaven didnt’ give a hoot about what happened to her, but was busy with her new life in heaven. Oh no, she’s sure her grandmother still loves her. So I asked, so do you think your grandmother who loves you and is in heaven and has direct access to Jesus, doesn’t mention your needs to Him? No, she couldnt’ imagine that. Well, Catholics believe that the people in heaven are part of the communion of saints and do pray for us, and we should ask them to pray for us. God allows them to hear our requests for prayer. It’s a gift he gives to his saints in heaven, the ability to love and give to us. Because He doesn’t need them to do it, it’s a gift to them. Just like He doesn’t need people on Earth praying for each other, it’s a gift to us to be able to pray for each other, to give to each other.

And I like to ask for prayers from the greatest prayer partner in heaven, Jesus’ mother.

Wonderful

The simple logic of it all !!!

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Just one more quick point about the actual prayer -
The Hail Mary is comprised of 2 parts.

The first is the collection of Bible Quotes relating to the Incarnation of Christ and Mary’s Role therein. It allows us to review the perinent points about Mary as recorded in the bible. 1) That she was highly favored and “full of grace” 2) That the Lord is close to and protecting her (as we hope He will be for us as well) 3) Mary is Truly Blessed in being the Chosen Mother of the Savior and accepting this blessing, which is 4) The fruit of her womb and the Salvation of the World.

The Second is a very simple request that Mary pray for us.
Something that we have expalined is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us.

Peace
James

 

[wmscott]

I’ve recently been discussing the issue of Marian devotion with some Protestant friends. We were talking about the Hail Mary, and the Protestants objected to this prayer for a number of reasons: firstly, because it’s supposedly ‘cut-and-pasted’ from different passages in the Bible (they accused Catholics of picking and choosing verses that fit, unlike the Lord’s Prayer, which is all in one passage); secondly, because they just have problems with the whole praying-to-Mary thing. Here’s what one of my friends said:

If I could have any tips here, I would greatly appreciate it! In the meantime, I’ve been combing the Catholic Answers resources for some more Biblical support.
Thanks!

1. The Hail Mary is entirely take from Sacred Scripture
2. Accusing Catholic of cut and pasting of passages is like the pot calling the kettle black, Protestants are the ones who invented cut and paste.
3. Ask them where the doxology (For Thine is the kingdom….) for the Lord ’s Prayer came from, it is not from the Bible, it was added to the prayer later by the Church.

 

[musicgal4jesus]

This is how I made my protestant friend, at least less hostile to praying to Mary.

I knew that her grandmother was exceptionally attentive, loving and giving to her. Her grandmother had passed away. I asked her if she thought her grandmother who was now in heaven didnt’ give a hoot about what happened to her, but was busy with her new life in heaven. Oh no, she’s sure her grandmother still loves her. So I asked, so do you think your grandmother who loves you and is in heaven and has direct access to Jesus, doesn’t mention your needs to Him? No, she couldnt’ imagine that. Well, Catholics believe that the people in heaven are part of the communion of saints and do pray for us, and we should ask them to pray for us. God allows them to hear our requests for prayer. It’s a gift he gives to his saints in heaven, the ability to love and give to us. Because He doesn’t need them to do it, it’s a gift to them. Just like He doesn’t need people on Earth praying for each other, it’s a gift to us to be able to pray for each other, to give to each other.

And I like to ask for prayers from the greatest prayer partner in heaven, Jesus’ mother.

Well the first answer I would have to give here is that Mary is not dead. She is very much alive and with the Father Son and Holy Spirit in Heaven. So we are not praying to a dead person.
Secondly, and I would say this to anyone, catholic or noncatholic, if you prefer to pray directly to the Father or directly to Jesus please do so. There is nothing in the Dogma’s of the Church that require one to pray privately to Mary or any other saint.
These things are encouraged due to the great power of the united prayers of God’s people but they are not a requirement of faith. So in our private prayer life we are free to pray as we choose and in the way that helps us the most.
(Personally I pray primarily to Our Father as Jesus Taught us to and mostly it is just short ejaculations of thanks.)

This is creating a distinction in heaven that does not exist. Each and Every person in Heaven is part of God’s Glorious and Perfect Love. There can be no “Mud Puddle” vs “Ocean” in heaven. Thus every saint, is equal in Love and dignity before the throne of the Almighty God.
So -
Mary is Alive, not dead, and she is in Heaven.
Mary can pray for us in Heaven just well, or better, than those still here on earth.
Heaven is a place of Perfect Love, the Love of those in Heaven extends to those on Earth.
Their desire is to help us reach heaven and they offer prayer and petition before God for this purpose. Thus our Prayers to the Saints in Heaven, are maginfied by those Glorious Saints praying in Perfect Love before Our Heavenly King - Asking for Grace and Mercy upon us.

I hope some of this helps

Peace
James

Thanks for the help, guys. These parts of the replies in particular touched on something that my friend just brought up. She said,

But those people in Heaven aren’t paying attention to us… They are praising God. They have no use for earthly things and people until we get to Heaven. I ask my friends to pray for me so that I have support not to entercede for my behalf. I can talk directly to God myself and I don’t need my friends to do that for me.

She makes it sound like our prayers to saints are ‘wasted’ because they’re too busy praising God or whatever. How would you respond to that argument?
(I’ve already asked her why she asks her friends on Earth to pray for her, but not her ‘friends in Heaven,’ and she said, “i don’t ask my friends to pray for me because i think they have some sway on God. in fact i have no idea why i ask my friends to pray for me but i don’t do it too often…”)

Thanks again guys, you all are a great support!

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the help, guys. These parts of the replies in particular touched on something that my friend just brought up. She said,

She makes it sound like our prayers to saints are ‘wasted’ because they’re too busy praising God or whatever. How would you respond to that argument?
(I’ve already asked her why she asks her friends on Earth to pray for her, but not her ‘friends in Heaven,’ and she said, “i don’t ask my friends to pray for me because i think they have some sway on God. in fact i have no idea why i ask my friends to pray for me but i don’t do it too often…”)

Thanks again guys, you all are a great support!

This may hold no sway with your friend but it is a beautiful expression of the beatific vision and well worth pondering on It is from the Dialogs by Ct. Catherine of Sienna and is quoted in the Book "The Fulfillment of All Desire by Ralph Martin. (A book that I highly recommend to anyone - Catholic or non-Catholic)

Speaking of the Souls who have entered into heaven God reveals to her,:
…Because they have lived in love of Me and of the neighbor, united together with the general love, and the particular, which, moreover, both proceed from the same love. And they rejoice and exult, participating in each other’s good with the affection of love, besides the universal good that they enjoy altogether. …
And they have a special participation with those whom they closely loved with particular affection in the world, with which affection they grew in grace, increasing virtue, and the one was the occasion to the other of manifesting the glory and praise of My name, in themselves and in their neighbor; and, in the life everlasting, they have not lost their love, but have it still, participating closely, with more abundance, the one with the other, their love being added to the universal good, …
“And that soul rejoices in Me, and in the souls, and in the blessed spirits, seeing and tasting in them the beauty and the sweetness of My love. And their desires forever cry out to Me, for the salvation of the whole world. And because their life ended in the love of the neighbor, they have not left it behind, but, with it, they will pass through the Door, My only-begotten Son in the way that I will relate to you. So you see that in those bonds of love in which they finished their life, they go on and remain eternally. They are conformed so entirely to My will, that they cannot desire except what I desire,

These quotes came from the online version oft he dialogs which are HERE
There is a great deal in these dialogs of interest.

Peace
James

 

[greggy53]

That’s funny. When I was going to an Evangelical church, every sermon was a series of cut and pasted verses from all over the bible designed to fit the point that the pastor wanted to make. Protestants are really good at this. Roman’s Road, anyone?

The SDA’s have made of science out of “cut and paste theology”