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awantz
Guest
You shouldn’t group all protestants together, because there are a lot of Protestants who do think highly of/ respect her. There are even some who talk to her.
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wmscott
Guest
I thought you might find the attachment interesting, as a note I have forgot where I got this from, sorry
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nordskoven
Guest
The “Angelic Psalter” as the “Hail, Mary” was called, is a succinct version of the Ancient Sacred Wedding Rite. It is the Virgin being literally married to the Holy Spirit. “Full of Grace” is the perfect fulfillment of the ancient title of woman/queen, EN, in the Sumerian, literally “grace.” The Virgin is titled “Full of grace.” She is the fulfillment of queenship.
Remember all those kings wanting to marry Princes Sarah, Abraham’s wife? Kingship went to the consort of the Woman, here capitalized to denote her EN status. This refers back to Genesis 3:15, God’s cursing of Lucifer and his seed with the Woman & Seed. The Woman & Seed were pre-eminent in the ancient world and were persecuted then as now by Satanic forces. One inherited property through the Woman, and little statues of mom served as land titles, and later became perverted into little idols. Rachel stole the teraphim, little statue of her mom, because it acted as a land title, and she was retrieving lands alienated from her by her father.
Remember Abraham and Sarah NOT being considered brother and sister BECAUSE THEY HAD DIFFERENT MOTHERS? Dads didn’t count; one’s lineage came through the Woman. She held land, she distributed stores from her storehouse so nobody starved. Then the “Patriarchal Revolution” in which men threw down the ancient landmarks denoting property lines, made themselves kings, and Women of Grace were made temple prostitutes and their children slain, as seen in King Sargon the Great’s escape from doom. WWSD? What Would Satan Do? If Genesis 3:15 is God’s curse on Lucifer and his seed via the Woman & Seed, persecute women and children. Abortion is the modern parallel.
Gabriel’s address is a forensic necessity. Blessed Mary was married. Blessed Mary is the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, her and through her, her Seed. And we are her “other children” as referenced in Apocalypse 12. Who’s yo’ Mama? No Virgin Mary, no Jewish Jesus, as kinship went through the female to those who retained the Genesis 3:15 tradition. No Jewish Jesus, no “new and everlasting covenant” to and through the Hebrews. No “new and everlasting covenant” to and through the Jews, no adoption into the Body of Christ and no “seed” status with Jesus Christ, Seed of the Woman.
Catholics are unaware of this extrabiblical legal support for the Virgin Mary’s role, Protestants are unaware of this, and Jews and Muslims deny it, though it’s all hidden in plain sight. Yet all we have to know is these words, “Hail, Full of Grace…” are the worst words Satan and his seed hears dunning holiness into their ears, and the most delightful words that please the Most High God. *“FIAT MIHI SECUNDUM TUUM.” *May we emulate the Immaculate Heart of Mary, her pure, perfect intent that always says “yes” to God. “Do whatever He says.” May the Angel Gabriel offer God’s explanations to the pure of heart, and strike dumb those who cynically doubt until such time as they glorify God’s will.
Remember all those kings wanting to marry Princes Sarah, Abraham’s wife? Kingship went to the consort of the Woman, here capitalized to denote her EN status. This refers back to Genesis 3:15, God’s cursing of Lucifer and his seed with the Woman & Seed. The Woman & Seed were pre-eminent in the ancient world and were persecuted then as now by Satanic forces. One inherited property through the Woman, and little statues of mom served as land titles, and later became perverted into little idols. Rachel stole the teraphim, little statue of her mom, because it acted as a land title, and she was retrieving lands alienated from her by her father.
Remember Abraham and Sarah NOT being considered brother and sister BECAUSE THEY HAD DIFFERENT MOTHERS? Dads didn’t count; one’s lineage came through the Woman. She held land, she distributed stores from her storehouse so nobody starved. Then the “Patriarchal Revolution” in which men threw down the ancient landmarks denoting property lines, made themselves kings, and Women of Grace were made temple prostitutes and their children slain, as seen in King Sargon the Great’s escape from doom. WWSD? What Would Satan Do? If Genesis 3:15 is God’s curse on Lucifer and his seed via the Woman & Seed, persecute women and children. Abortion is the modern parallel.
Gabriel’s address is a forensic necessity. Blessed Mary was married. Blessed Mary is the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, her and through her, her Seed. And we are her “other children” as referenced in Apocalypse 12. Who’s yo’ Mama? No Virgin Mary, no Jewish Jesus, as kinship went through the female to those who retained the Genesis 3:15 tradition. No Jewish Jesus, no “new and everlasting covenant” to and through the Hebrews. No “new and everlasting covenant” to and through the Jews, no adoption into the Body of Christ and no “seed” status with Jesus Christ, Seed of the Woman.
Catholics are unaware of this extrabiblical legal support for the Virgin Mary’s role, Protestants are unaware of this, and Jews and Muslims deny it, though it’s all hidden in plain sight. Yet all we have to know is these words, “Hail, Full of Grace…” are the worst words Satan and his seed hears dunning holiness into their ears, and the most delightful words that please the Most High God. *“FIAT MIHI SECUNDUM TUUM.” *May we emulate the Immaculate Heart of Mary, her pure, perfect intent that always says “yes” to God. “Do whatever He says.” May the Angel Gabriel offer God’s explanations to the pure of heart, and strike dumb those who cynically doubt until such time as they glorify God’s will.
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peary
Guest
I am beginning to believe that as much as protestants say they know about the Bible, they are biblically illiterate. As one Baptist told me, “If the Bible was good enough for Saint Paul, it’s good enough for me.”
The first part of the prayer is Angel Gabriel’s salutation to Mary, and the translation is taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” (Luke 1:28) The addition of the name ‘Mary’ in the verse - “Hail [Mary]” is to clarify to whom Gabriel addresses.
The next part of the prayer - “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb” - is also taken from Scripture (Luke 1:42), from the Douay-Rheims translation. It is Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary. Early theologians saw in her greeting an extension of Gabriel’s salutation since Elizabeth, at the time, was **“filled with the Holy Ghost **[Spirit]” (Luke 1:41). The addition of the name ‘Jesus’ at the end of the verse is to clarify as to whom is in Mary’s womb. Because Elizabeth was Spirit-filled, her own greeting was Divinely-inspired.
The third part of the prayer - “Holy Mary, Mother of God” - clarifies for the one who prays the proper theological understanding of Mary.
The fourth part of the prayer - “Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death” - clarifies for the one who prays his or her proper relationship to Mary as Mother of the Church and Mother of Jesus - we are asking her to pray for us, ***sinners ***that we are, now in the present while we live in this world, and also ***at the hour of our death ***for God’s mercy that we go to Heaven. The prayer teaches our proper approach to the Communion of Saints. The prayer ends with Amen.
The second part of the Hail Mary can be traced as far back as 1514 when it was first published in the Breviary of the Camaldolese monks (founded by St. Romuald at the beginning of the eleventh century). The prayer in its present form became popular among the faithful in the areas where the monks lived and worked and was later validated by the Council of Trent in 1568.
Protestants to this day do not consider the “Hail Mary” a valid prayer because it is a greeting and does not contain a petition. The Council of Trent accepted the petition in the second part of the prayer - “Pray for us, sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.” However,protestants reject this too because they do not believe that the Communion of Saints in Heaven do not pray for us and that that action is a form of idolatry.
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hawkeye
Guest
The Angel Gabriel spoke those words in subservience to God Almighty, if he/she has a problem with them, then let he/she either take them up with Gabriel, or with God.
The** “Hail Mary”** is in the Bible.
The** “Hail Mary”** is in the Bible.
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scottywolf777
Guest
Well, to quote Scott Hahn, Mary,Mary Quite contrary…
The really interesting question here is ALL Christians and even the Muslims had respect for and honored and invoked the prayers of Our Lady for 1500 years and had no problem with it. Even the early reformers didn’t seem to have a problem with it, Luther’s Small Catechism actually recommends saying the Rosary (a Biblical prayer) daily.
I recently watched an interview with Fr Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of the city or Rome who stated that the devil’s greatest enemy is Mary and She often makes Her presence known to him at exorcisms and “assists” the exorcist in casting out Satan. Satan absolutely detests her and won’t even say her name.
We aren’t really the ones with a problem are we? Why is it, that THEY have a problem with HER? And the allegations that Mary somehow is in competition with Jesus is pure poppycock. Mary at every approved apparition always calls people to conversion to her Son and His church. Shouldn’t they be the ones trying to prove to you why THEY shouldn’t be on their knees thanking her for her work in salvation and her prayers on their behalf even if they didn’t pray for her intecession? Incidentally, God only had one choice in mind from the beginning for the mother of His Son and that was the Blessed Virgin Mary. There was NO second runner up nor was it as crudely put by Brigham Young of the Mormon church, “Elohim (their god) knocked up the Virgin Mary and that was how his son Jesus was born.”
“All generations shall call me blessed for Holy is His name.” Luke 1:28,29 What part of that aren’t folks getting?
The really interesting question here is ALL Christians and even the Muslims had respect for and honored and invoked the prayers of Our Lady for 1500 years and had no problem with it. Even the early reformers didn’t seem to have a problem with it, Luther’s Small Catechism actually recommends saying the Rosary (a Biblical prayer) daily.
I recently watched an interview with Fr Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of the city or Rome who stated that the devil’s greatest enemy is Mary and She often makes Her presence known to him at exorcisms and “assists” the exorcist in casting out Satan. Satan absolutely detests her and won’t even say her name.
We aren’t really the ones with a problem are we? Why is it, that THEY have a problem with HER? And the allegations that Mary somehow is in competition with Jesus is pure poppycock. Mary at every approved apparition always calls people to conversion to her Son and His church. Shouldn’t they be the ones trying to prove to you why THEY shouldn’t be on their knees thanking her for her work in salvation and her prayers on their behalf even if they didn’t pray for her intecession? Incidentally, God only had one choice in mind from the beginning for the mother of His Son and that was the Blessed Virgin Mary. There was NO second runner up nor was it as crudely put by Brigham Young of the Mormon church, “Elohim (their god) knocked up the Virgin Mary and that was how his son Jesus was born.”
“All generations shall call me blessed for Holy is His name.” Luke 1:28,29 What part of that aren’t folks getting?
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hawkeye
Guest
Yes purely satanic driven, Mary never said at Cana " do as I tell you" she said, do as He tells you."
What a disgusting discription of the Mother of Jesus.
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holy_moly
Guest
That’s what I always ask those that have problems w/ Mary (generally Protestants), but it always seems to render them speachless…
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Agripa
Guest
I take the whole issue of Mary as a remnant of female goddess worship that was prevalent throughout the Roman and Mediterranian world at the time Jesus lived.
Very early Jewish practices and certainly later Greek and Roman mythologies held female notions of gods or certainly a feminine characteristic of God. I am not sure why Christians lost that ability to comfortably see God as both male and female, but perhaps the second class status women held at various periods in history or in certain cultures translated to removing a feminine divinity from early Christianity which lasts to this day.
I think Catholics like to pretend to not worship Mary, they give strange responses such as “we petition her to intercede” as if she is a demi god-ess lawyer or something before the mighty man-throne of God!
In any event, I wonder if you can be a true Catholic and never “pray” to Mary at all? Is it a necessity that Catholics pray to Mary?
Very early Jewish practices and certainly later Greek and Roman mythologies held female notions of gods or certainly a feminine characteristic of God. I am not sure why Christians lost that ability to comfortably see God as both male and female, but perhaps the second class status women held at various periods in history or in certain cultures translated to removing a feminine divinity from early Christianity which lasts to this day.
I think Catholics like to pretend to not worship Mary, they give strange responses such as “we petition her to intercede” as if she is a demi god-ess lawyer or something before the mighty man-throne of God!
In any event, I wonder if you can be a true Catholic and never “pray” to Mary at all? Is it a necessity that Catholics pray to Mary?
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Victorious
Guest
Pure bunk. The early Christians regarded paganism with the utmost disgust, so it is absurd to talk of orthodox Christians borrowing elements of pagan religions.
Not worth responding to.
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holy_moly
Guest
No, it’s a luxuryI take the whole issue of Mary as a remnant of female goddess worship that was prevalent throughout the Roman and Mediterranian world at the time Jesus lived.
Very early Jewish practices and certainly later Greek and Roman mythologies held female notions of gods or certainly a feminine characteristic of God. I am not sure why Christians lost that ability to comfortably see God as both male and female, but perhaps the second class status women held at various periods in history or in certain cultures translated to removing a feminine divinity from early Christianity which lasts to this day.
I think Catholics like to pretend to not worship Mary, they give strange responses such as “we petition her to intercede” as if she is a demi god-ess lawyer or something before the mighty man-throne of God!
In any event, I wonder if you can be a true Catholic and never “pray” to Mary at all? Is it a necessity that Catholics pray to Mary?
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Agripa
Guest
Sorry, but Christians borrowed heavily from pagans - as you still call them (hint - its the modern era - we refer to them as simply people of differing beliefs) - in fact it was the pagan gods that demanded sacfice if first born sons - a central theme still found in Christianity and in OT Judaism.
Further, there were lots of virgin mother figures in various mythologies, Christians simply adopted this as well. Strange, I think only two of the four Gospels even refer to the virgin birth paradigm. (Mathew and Luke??)
I suspect it was a tricky problem for early Church leaders, especially in light of the fact that Mary never became a Christian, remained married to a Jew who, as the Bible clearly states, was of the House of David and Jesus, Mary’s son, had to hold lineage (genes) of the House of David to fulfill prophesies. As traditional Jews, Mary and Joseph would have had to have produced children, lest she establish grounds for divorce. Furthermore, as birth is the focus of God / Nature as the generation of life, I am not sure that should have conflicted at all with religious dogma.
But this is where Chrisitans, particuarly Catholics get a bit “fuzzy”. Catholic teens are taught never never never never to have sex or think sexually until married with spouse at which time, sex and reproductive activity is good, wholesome, wonderful, life-giving and encouraged, and certainly “sinless”. Yet Mary, we are told, was a virgin and remained a virgin until assumed in a puff of smoke up to heaven. Why on earth would it have been sinful or impossible for her to have had sex within the bond of marriage???
And BTW, am not sure why you need to respond in less than a civil manner. If you have a particular faith belief that differs from a poster on this thread, please respond and lay out your case.
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wmscott
Guest
So as an Agnostic / Absolute Monotheist why would we or any other Christian put any stock in what you say?Sorry, but Christians borrowed heavily from pagans - as you still call them (hint - its the modern era - we refer to them as simply people of differing beliefs) - in fact it was the pagan gods that demanded sacfice if first born sons - a central theme still found in Christianity and in OT Judaism.
Further, there were lots of virgin mother figures in various mythologies, Christians simply adopted this as well. Strange, I think only two of the four Gospels even refer to the virgin birth paradigm. (Mathew and Luke??)
I suspect it was a tricky problem for early Church leaders, especially in light of the fact that Mary never became a Christian, remained married to a Jew who, as the Bible clearly states, was of the House of David and Jesus, Mary’s son, had to hold lineage (genes) of the House of David to fulfill prophesies. As traditional Jews, Mary and Joseph would have had to have produced children, lest she establish grounds for divorce. Furthermore, as birth is the focus of God / Nature as the generation of life, I am not sure that should have conflicted at all with religious dogma.
But this is where Chrisitans, particuarly Catholics get a bit “fuzzy”. Catholic teens are taught never never never never to have sex or think sexually until married with spouse at which time, sex and reproductive activity is good, wholesome, wonderful, life-giving and encouraged, and certainly “sinless”. Yet Mary, we are told, was a virgin and remained a virgin until assumed in a puff of smoke up to heaven. Why on earth would it have been sinful or impossible for her to have had sex within the bond of marriage???
And BTW, am not sure why you need to respond in less than a civil manner. If you have a particular faith belief that differs from a poster on this thread, please respond and lay out your case.
You say to respond in a civil manner, however, your statements regarding the Blessed Mother, regardless of the fact that you posted your thoughts in a seemingly mild manner, is insulting and offensive to me and probably most Catholics.
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Agripa
Guest
Not sure how my basic questions or suppositions are anything other than mild mannered and straight forward? Is this forum merely to be an echo chamber of Catholic affirmations for the choir or are we allowed to freely express questions and opinions that may differ?
My point is that some Catholics seem to take the role of Mary in Catholic theology for granted and seem not to seriously question the development of Mary as an iconographic image with historical roots in many other theologies and cultures. I want to explore that with Catholics so as to observe the extent of their rational understanding of the concept of praying to a human being who no longer walks the earth.
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peary
Guest
You keep forgetting that in Heaven, there is neither male nor female (Galatians 3:28).I take the whole issue of Mary as a remnant of female goddess worship that was prevalent throughout the Roman and Mediterranian world at the time Jesus lived.
Very early Jewish practices and certainly later Greek and Roman mythologies held female notions of gods or certainly a feminine characteristic of God. I am not sure why Christians lost that ability to comfortably see God as both male and female, but perhaps the second class status women held at various periods in history or in certain cultures translated to removing a feminine divinity from early Christianity which lasts to this day.
I think Catholics like to pretend to not worship Mary, they give strange responses such as “we petition her to intercede” as if she is a demi god-ess lawyer or something before the mighty man-throne of God!
In any event, I wonder if you can be a true Catholic and never “pray” to Mary at all? Is it a necessity that Catholics pray to Mary?
The reason we call God ‘Father’ is because Jesus called God ‘Father’ and helped us to extend this notion to His followers. In fact, it wasn’t just the term ‘Father’ that He used - it was ‘Abba’ - ‘Daddy’, as a child would approach a parent in relationship.
Maybe *some *Catholics go overboard with their honoring Mary to the point of worship (which is against Church teaching, by the way) and they have to be gently nudged away from that and directed to Christ. In the Bible, Mary tells the servants at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5) And basically, that is the Church’s view of the matter too.
But Mary is also Mother of the Church just as she is the Mother of the Redeemer. If we are the Body of Christ, she is our spiritual mother too.
It is not a necessity for Catholics to pray to Mary, or even to any of the saints, either. But this has not been prohibited by God because there are too many ‘events’ in the life of the Church where the saints and Mary have literally poked their noses into the Church’s business as well as the lives of the faithful on a personal level to reach a different conclusion. Intercession is a spiritual work of mercy, whether one is in Heaven or on earth.
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Agripa
Guest
Sorry, but while the Church may officially “teach” Catholics not to pray to Mary as a godess per se, thats really what it is and there are clearly rational reasons for this, not the least of which are the Roman traditions (supplanted by Catholicism, but still preserved in form) which is the praying to demi gods of both sexes). And I am not speaking of what is or is not in heaven - no one knows that other than through faith, but I speak in terms of what Christians, specifically Catholics do (currently and historically) here on earth.
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peary
Guest
,
Well, you are wrong again, and I don’t know if it is worth answering you a second time. Your tunnel vision ikeeps you from your own understanding, and, quite frankly, I don’t think you are all that interested in understanding the matter at all.
first, I know of NO Catholic in my 50-plus years on this earth who considers prayers to either Mary or the Saints in Heaven to be god/goddess worship. And just because YOU say it is does not make it so. I pray to Mary and the Saints and god/godess worship is the LAST thing on my mind when I do so. Unfortunately, you are just clueless.
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holy_moly
Guest
Just curious as to your perspective on Marian apparationsNot sure how my basic questions or suppositions are anything other than mild mannered and straight forward? Is this forum merely to be an echo chamber of Catholic affirmations for the choir or are we allowed to freely express questions and opinions that may differ?
My point is that some Catholics seem to take the role of Mary in Catholic theology for granted and seem not to seriously question the development of Mary as an iconographic image with historical roots in many other theologies and cultures. I want to explore that with Catholics so as to observe the extent of their rational understanding of the concept of praying to a human being who no longer walks the earth.
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Catholic_JIMMY
Guest
Solomon, the physical Son of David, had Bathsheba, his mom, be his Queen-Mother. Thus Jesus, the spiritual Son of David, made Mary Queen of Heaven.
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Agripa
Guest
You do not need to be insulting - we may have a different perspective, but you do not need to demean the conversation by insults.
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