Hail Mary

[adstrinity]

It’s precisely because of some of those words that I find this distinction difficult to parse. Take this example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4223405&postcount=196

Is a statement like “I consecrate myself wholly to you” not to be taken as worship? Or is it considered worship when offered to Jesus, but not when offered to Mary?

I’m sorry if you consider me argumentative, for it is most certainly not my intent to foster discord and unrest, but it also feels quite empty to respond to concerns with “I feel your concern is irrelevant”. I don’t know what I can give you but my word based on my personal observations that this potential confusion between veneration and worship can be a very serious stumbling block, especially for those coming out of cultures with a history of ancestor worship.

Oh sigh

a_mirror_dimly, you are concerned by this phraseology because you have been taught to be particularly sensitive about such issues, yes?

Please, do not look at the consencration as an either Mary or Jesus conflict. It is not contrary.

I reckon it has been mentioned here prior, but, one could consencrate oneself to a spouse or to the life of one’s children; this doesn’t take oneself away from the consecration of Jesus.

What specifically concerns or bothers you?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

I question it not because I’ve been taught to be particularly sensitive on that issue, but because I’d never seen “consecrate” used outside of the context of worship, specifically an offering of something set aside for God.

The denotation of the word is more general, by the definition of the word I suppose I could say that I’m consecrating part of my backyard for use exclusively as a garden, but the connotation is to set aside something for God.

A brief search seems to indicate that the same usage at least fairly common within the Catholic Church (though I’m obviously quite open to correction on this point):

newadvent.org/cathen/04276a.htm

In your view is consecration an act of worship when directed at Jesus?

Note again that my point is not to tell one person or another that they are worshiping Mary…I would not presume to judge what is in others’ hearts. Rather, I hoped to foster some understanding of why there is this confusion about worship and veneration.

Veneration isn’t a concept that’s familiar to most people outside the Catholic Church, and so when I ask for clarification on the differences between veneration and worship I ask in good faith so that the answer might be illuminating to both myself and others.

 

[adstrinity]

In your view is consecration an act of worship when directed at Jesus?

In MY view? …I don’t think so. When I consecrate myself to Jesus, I hope I can live up to my promise. When I consecrate myself to a Saint, I trust that they will pray for my intentions.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It’s precisely because of some of those words that I find this distinction difficult to parse. Take this example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4223405&postcount=196

Is a statement like “I consecrate myself wholly to you” not to be taken as worship?

It should be taken for what it means - i.e. a person is devoting him or her self to the person to whom the statement is directed. Why are you assuming “consecration” must be an act of worship?

a_mirror_dimly:

Or is it considered worship when offered to Jesus, but not when offered to Mary?

It is not adoration of Jesus or Mary. It is an act of dedication and devotion. I can consecrate myself to my family. Such an act is not familial or ancestor worship? It means I dedicate all of my actions regarding my familial duties as acts of worship to God. In the same way, one can consecrate themselves to Mary, or any of the saints, in a way that any actions taken with regard to honoring them can be devoted to God as an adoration if His power and glory (in giving us such a saintly example of motherhood, charity, etc.) Perhaps your confusion lies in your misunderstanding of the nature of Catholic devotion to the saints?

mirror:

I’m sorry if you consider me argumentative, for it is most certainly not my intent to foster discord and unrest, but it also feels quite empty to respond to concerns with “I feel your concern is irrelevant”. I don’t know what I can give you but my word based on my personal observations that this potential confusion between veneration and worship can be a very serious stumbling block, especially for those coming out of cultures with a history of ancestor worship.

I do not consider you argumentative. I find your questions to be sincere and well intentioned. My response was not intended as an outright dismissal of your concern. I’m just sharing my point of view. I think that even if your concern is personally present, I’m not entirely convinced that many many others may share it. As such, I cannot agree with the underlying premise that it can be assumed there must necessarily be mass confusion between persons who are “adoring” God and “honoring” the saints.

To me, it seems that a proper understanding of the context in which prayers are offered usually makes clear what is intended by the person in prayer - veneration, adoration, or something other (i.e. petition, intercession, etc.) One does not need to hold up a sign, or raise hands in the air to broadcast their internt to someone who may be confused.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

…and yet, despite your belief that it is not confusing, for the benefit of someone such as myself how would you describe the difference between veneration and adoration? I can only assume that your rejection of the notion that they are “so close as to be indistinguishable” means that you have some notion of how they differ.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

…and yet, despite your belief that it is not confusing, for the benefit of someone such as myself how would you describe the difference between veneration and adoration? I can only assume that your rejection of the notion that they are “so close as to be indistinguishable” means that you have some notion of how they differ.

They are different. Context is everything. If you are confused by someone else’s act, then you need to understand that you are focusing needlessly on the externals.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Earlier however you suggested telling the two apart by listening to what was said. Surely that’s an external action, no?

I suppose my frustration is that the definition seems rather circular. Not even a heretic can worship Mary because if Mary is praised it’s veneration and if God is praised it’s worship. Something about those definitions feels lacking.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Mary confessed she was a sinner (Luke 1).

Mary said that she rejoiced in God her savior.

There are two ways to save someone: 1) to pull them out of the pit of sin and 2) to prevent them from ever falling in.

Think about it.

Love is Patient

 

[BSHoop96]

Isn’t it conceivable that despite the difference that you know exists in your heart, if there is no difference in outward appearance between the two that would serve as a stumbling block to a young believer struggling to understand the distinction?

Not if they’re Catholic. If they are Catholics they know Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.

Without doubting the individual profession of anyone posting here, it seems quite plausible that if adoration and veneration are so close to one another as to be indistinguishable that some mistakenly stray into adoration when they should be giving only veneration. Or is that notion completely absurd?

Yes. It is.

 

[adstrinity]

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IX

Well this is valuble, innit? “All Have Sinned…”

 

[BSHoop96]

I think it is a stretch to suggest that adoration and veneration are “so close as to be indistinguishable.” IF a person were to confuse the two, it would be due to poor catechesis, and not because of any error in the doctrine. (Just my 2 cents.)

Peace,
-Robert

Robert…exactly. It doesn’t matter what it “looks” like to someone else. One doesn’t slides over the line “accidentally” either. One knows whether they are placing Mary above Jesus.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Robert…exactly. It doesn’t matter what it “looks” like to someone else. One doesn’t slides over the line “accidentally” either. One knows whether they are placing Mary above Jesus.

Have you never known someone who was placing career, or a hobby, family, or even a good cause above their faith and yet did not believe that they were doing so? I know I’ve seen it, and in retrospect I’ve been there myself. I don’t think one has to make a conscious decision to end up putting other things above God…and in fact it’s something we should be continually on guard against.

 

[BSHoop96]

Have you never known someone who was placing career, or a hobby, family, or even a good cause above their faith and yet did not believe that they were doing so? I know I’ve seen it, and in retrospect I’ve been there myself. I don’t think one has to make a conscious decision to end up putting other things above God…and in fact it’s something we should be continually on guard against.

Oh my heavens…so you’re saying people can just “accidentally” place Mary above Jesus. :banghead: :banghead:

Catholics do not worship Mary.
The Catholic church does not teach or condone worship of Mary.
No one…nothing…nada…zilch is placed above God.

We tell you this. Why do you not believe us? I don’t really believe you are asking sincere questions because you won’t accept the answers. You want to convince us that we are “wrong” in our attitudes toward Mary.

I’m done. If you wish to further explore this issue I suggests you read the Catholic Cathechism. It’s all in there. It’s even online. Just enter “Mary” in the search field.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

I never once stated that I thought the Catholic Church condoned or taught worship of Mary…I most certainly do not believe that to be the case. I have stated that I feel the veneration/adoration distinction is confusing, particularly for those not raised in the Church, and that I feel it can be a stumbling block for many.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I never once stated that I thought the Catholic Church condoned or taught worship of Mary…I most certainly do not believe that to be the case. I have stated that I feel the veneration/adoration distinction is confusing, particularly for those not raised in the Church, and that I feel it can be a stumbling block for many.

As a convert to Catholicism, I can understand that. What I found was that Mary looks to be SO HUGE and SO IMPORTANT from the outside, but when you actually study what the Church teaches about her, and attend Mass, what Catholics say and feel about Mary is teeny-tiny, small potatoes compared to Jesus our Savior. All those dogmas about Mary that non-Catholics get hung up on actually have more to do with who Christ is, than Mary personally.

 

[BSHoop96]

I never once stated that I thought the Catholic Church condoned or taught worship of Mary…I most certainly do not believe that to be the case. I have stated that I feel the veneration/adoration distinction is confusing, particularly for those not raised in the Church, and that I feel it can be a stumbling block for many.

Since this is a very common anti-Catholic bias among non-Catholics (along with statues, etc.) it is definitely spoken to in RCIA and/or Inquiry. Beyond that I really don’t know what you would expect the Church to say or do about it.

 

[Reformed]

Edited my post.

Your homework for the week is to read the Bible, and you tell me. I can’t keep doing your homework for you.

Homework completed because Rome is not a biblical church.

 

[Reformed]

It doesn’t. A person can easily read all the Scriptures on Mary in less than a half and hour and not find any such thing.

I think the Catholic position on Mary is a pattern of how Roman Catholicism is not based on the Word of God. I consider Mary a secondary issue. The essential issue is how Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical gospel of God’s grace.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Homework completed because Rome is not a biblical church.

You’re right, Rome is not a church, it’s a lovely city in Italy where Sts Peter and Paul and several other Catholics were martyred by the pagans.

 

[Reformed]

You have been here quite sometime now reformed and you still don’t understand that The Catholic Church is not confined to the Bible only? Only Protestants like yourself are limited to that little problem. The Church was already 400 years old before it gave the world the bible. So all it learned and wrote down came from tradition 1600 years before the silly notion sola scriptura was started. So if you wish to enclose yourself in a small box and claim complete and infallible understanding of scripture go ahead. I prefer the massive incomprable truth the the church Our Lord Jesus christ gave us.

Peace to you reformed, I pray the scales fall from your eyes but I’m done with throwing my pearls before the swine!

Amen!

Ohh… I understand. That is the reason for the Protestant Reformation. The rejection of the Holy Scripture as being final authority is why Roman Catholicism is the way that it is. Elevating tradition over and above the Word of God keeps the soul in utter darkness.