Hail Mary

[happilycatholic]

Mary’s mission in life was to bring us our Lord. To be a Blessed Pathway chosen by God to bring our Saviour to us. Is there a reason it shouldn’t work the other way? By that I mean is there a reason that we shouldn’t ask the mother of Jesus Christ to pray for us?

I keep asking this simple question and no one can really give me a straight answer:

Does anyone really believe that they would fall out of favor with Christ if they pray to His Blessed Mother? Or do you think you would find favor with Christ if you pray to His Blessed Mother?

It’s pretty simple really.

 

[guanophore]

Mary’s mission in life was to bring us our Lord. To be a Blessed Pathway chosen by God to bring our Saviour to us. Is there a reason it shouldn’t work the other way? By that I mean is there a reason that we shouldn’t ask the mother of Jesus Christ to pray for us?

I keep asking this simple question and no one can really give me a straight answer:

Does anyone really believe that they would fall out of favor with Christ if they pray to His Blessed Mother? Or do you think you would find favor with Christ if you pray to His Blessed Mother?

It’s pretty simple really.

It seems that a lot of people think they don’t need a mom.

It is like Jesus gave them a wrapped gift, and they don’t open it because they don’t think they need it or want it.

 

[happilycatholic]

It seems that a lot of people think they don’t need a mom.

It is like Jesus gave them a wrapped gift, and they don’t open it because they don’t think they need it or want it.

I know!

People tend to have one of two problems with this:

1.) They believe that saints/people in Heaven can’t see us.

2.) They believe asking Mary to pray for us is somehow circumventing Christ.

I just don’t get that and would really appreciate someone explaining it from their hearts without all the quotes from the Bible. It’s obvious we aren’t going to agree on what the Bible says or doesn’t say. I totally understand that. But when it gets right down to it, is there a reason Mary can’t pray for us? And if she can’t see us, what’s the harm?

 

[ncgolf]

It seems that a lot of people think they don’t need a mom.

It is like Jesus gave them a wrapped gift, and they don’t open it because they don’t think they need it or want it.

I remember reading in one of Scott Hahn’s books … don’t remember which … where he akins Mary as God’s masterpiece. If one is to gaze at the art … does it detract from the artist … no … it is a reflection of the artist … it honors the artist when people look upon his masterpiece.

Mary is simply God’s masterpiece … she is a living model for all.

 

[happilycatholic]

I remember reading in one of Scott Hahn’s books … don’t remember which … where he akins Mary as God’s masterpiece. If one is to gaze at the art … does it detract from the artist … no … it is a reflection of the artist … it honors the artist when people look upon his masterpiece.

Mary is simply God’s masterpiece … she is a living model for all.

I love that.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4323956]
Originally Posted by guanophore
It seems that a lot of people think they don’t need a mom.

It is like Jesus gave them a wrapped gift, and they don’t open it because they don’t think they need it or want it.

happilycatholic
I know!

People tend to have one of two problems with this:

1.) They believe that saints/people in Heaven can’t see us.

2.) They believe asking Mary to pray for us is somehow circumventing Christ.

I just don’t get that and would really appreciate someone explaining it from their hearts without all the quotes from the Bible. It’s obvious we aren’t going to agree on what the Bible says or doesn’t say. I totally understand that. But when it gets right down to it, is there a reason Mary can’t pray for us? And if she can’t see us, what’s the harm?

I think you put your finger on what is the main problem with Marian doctrines .Instead of allowing the Scriptures to form doctrines, feelings and speculations are the factors that determine what Mary should look like and be for people. This was a problem for Israel in the OT. Instead of following the Word of God they followed their speculations about God and were rebuked by God for idolatry.
It is very harmful when you do not follow the Scriptures and allow speculations of men to determine what Mary is like and your relationship is to be with her. It was so harmful to Israel that God through the prophet Jeremiah rebuked those people who burned sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were punished by God for doing so. See Jeremiah 44:15-29

 

[justasking4]

It seems that a lot of people think they don’t need a mom.

It is like Jesus gave them a wrapped gift, and they don’t open it because they don’t think they need it or want it.

Where did the Lord Jesus give His mother as some kind of gift to the church and the apostles in their writings acknowledge this?

What specific teaching or letter did Mary write to the church for exhortation or encouragement?

 

[Lampo]

I think you put your finger on what is the main problem with Marian doctrines.

There is no problem with the Marian doctrines. More accurately, it is YOUR problem.

It is very harmful when you do not follow the Scriptures…

Do you follow the Scriptures if you believe the writer of the Book of Luke is Luke?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I think you put your finger on what is the main problem with Marian doctrines .Instead of allowing the Scriptures to form doctrines, feelings and speculations are the factors that determine what Mary should look like and be for people.

The Scriptures could not form doctrines, the doctrines were in place before the first epistle was ever written.

This was a problem for Israel in the OT. Instead of following the Word of God they followed their speculations about God and were rebuked by God for idolatry.

What Scriptures did the Israelites have when they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years?

It is very harmful when you do not follow the Scriptures and allow speculations of men to determine what Mary is like and your relationship is to be with her. It was so harmful to Israel that God through the prophet Jeremiah rebuked those people who burned sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were punished by God for doing so. See Jeremiah 44:15-29

It is very harmful when you limit yourself to the written Word of God and discard the Tradition from whence it came. The Scriptures do tell us what our relationship is with her. Revelation 12 tells us about the woman who gave birth to “a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron,” which is Jesus Christ. It goes on to say “her offspring” are “those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” It’s really quite logical. God is Jesus’ Father and our Father. Jesus is our brother since we have been adopted into His family. It logically follows that Jesus’ mother is our mother. It’s not really complicated, and it’s very Scriptural.

Queen of Heaven
In Jeremiah 7:18, God is indeed upset with the Israelites for worshipping a false goddess called the “queen of heaven”. However, just because God rebuked them for worshipping the false queen of heaven, doesn’t mean that we cannot pay honor to the true Queen of Heaven…the Blessed Mother.

That type of thinking would lead you to believe that just because people worship a false god that they call “god,” we, therefore, should not call the true God, by that same name…God…because that’s the same title the idolaters use for their god! That is faulty logic and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, the fact that there is a false “queen of heaven”, does not lead to the conclusion that we worship a false goddess when we call Mary the “Queen of Heaven.” Just as the fact that there is a false “god”, does not lead to the conclusion that we worship a false god when we call our Father in Heaven, God.

And there is a true Queen of Heaven, we see this quite clearly in Revelation 12:1, “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…” Let’s see. There’s a woman…she’s in Heaven…and she has a crown on her head. I could be wrong, but I don’t think it’s the maid!

 

[happilycatholic]

I think you put your finger on what is the main problem with Marian doctrines .Instead of allowing the Scriptures to form doctrines, feelings and speculations are the factors that determine what Mary should look like and be for people. This was a problem for Israel in the OT. Instead of following the Word of God they followed their speculations about God and were rebuked by God for idolatry.
It is very harmful when you do not follow the Scriptures and allow speculations of men to determine what Mary is like and your relationship is to be with her. It was so harmful to Israel that God through the prophet Jeremiah rebuked those people who burned sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were punished by God for doing so. See Jeremiah 44:15-29

Well, we as catholics have no problem with praying to Christ’s Mother. I’m sorry that you do.

You will not get me into a debate about it because I’m not here to prove my faith to anyone. I’m here to understand the faith of others and just get an idea of what’s on people’s minds.

I am perfectly aware of how you feel about Mary. You’ve made it crystal clear. The curious thing is you are full of statements but rarely ask questions. Pardon me for saying so, but that is the posture of someone who thinks they know an awful lot.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;4324132]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I think you put your finger on what is the main problem with Marian doctrines.
Lampo
There is no problem with the Marian doctrines. More accurately, it is YOUR problem.

Lets see if its your problem to. Here are some titles from Titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
These are just a few titles given to her that supposedly reflect the truth about her:
Hope of Christians
Lady of Grace
Lady of Victory
Mary, Queen of Angels
Mary, Queen of Peace
Mary, Star of the Sea
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Our Lady, Gate of Heaven
Paradise Fenced Against the Serpent
Star That Bore the Sea
Suppliant for Sinners
Surpassing the Seraphim
Wedded to God

The Scriptures is the only place that tells anything about Mary. If you know the Scriptures you will know that not one of these titles is ever applied to her not even hinted at.

If the Scriptures never say anything like this about her is right for the Catholic church to say such things about her especially when many of these and other titles would only apply to God Himself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
It is very harmful when you do not follow the Scriptures…
Lampo;
Do you follow the Scriptures if you believe the writer of the Book of Luke is Luke?

I do. Did Luke use any of the titles for Mary above? Does exalt Mary the way the Catholic church has?

 

[Lampo]

Lets see if its your problem to.

It’s not.

The Scriptures is the only place that tells anything about Mary.
Again, not true. The Magisterium tells us a lot about Mary. You just reject it.
justasking4;4324215:

If you know the Scriptures you will know that not one of these titles is ever applied to her not even hinted at.

Catholics do not adhere to the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

I do. Did Luke use any of the titles for Mary above? Does exalt Mary the way the Catholic church has?

Since you use the Scriptures to tell you that the writer of the Book of Luke is Luke, please provide chapter and verse that says this.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4324175]Well, we as catholics have no problem with praying to Christ’s Mother. I’m sorry that you do.

One of the most shocking things i find on these forums is that i don’t see catholics shocked by the things that are said about Mary and i think that part of the problem is that catholics don’t know the Scriptures that well and are unable to test the doctrines and practices of the church with the Scriptures. Instead catholics rely primarily and only on what the church says.

You will not get me into a debate about it because I’m not here to prove my faith to anyone. I’m here to understand the faith of others and just get an idea of what’s on people’s minds.

What do you do when you come across a fellow catholic who does not understand catholic doctrine correctly?

I am perfectly aware of how you feel about Mary. You’ve made it crystal clear. The curious thing is you are full of statements but rarely ask questions.

I am amazed you can say this. i have been accused countless times by my “friends” for asking to many questions. Even in our discussions i have asked quite a number of questions.

Pardon me for saying so, but that is the posture of someone who thinks they know an awful lot.

I do know the Scriptures well and am continuing to study catholic doctrines and practices. I wish more catholics and even protestants knew the Scriptures better. Ignorance of the Scriptures in Protestant churches is a major problem.

Do you know catholic teachings that well? Do you study the catechism?

 

[happilycatholic]

Where did the Lord Jesus give His mother as some kind of gift to the church and the apostles in their writings acknowledge this?

What specific teaching or letter did Mary write to the church for exhortation or encouragement?

Okay, questions. Good.

The answer is: None of that happened.

Do I need the Bible to tell me that Christ expects His Mother to be at the least loved and respected? No one forces me to pray to Mary, I do it because I love and respect the Mother of my Saviour.

Do I need the Bible to tell me that the Apostles knew that they should in the least love and respect the Mother of their Saviour? No one forces me to pray to Mary, I do it because I love and respect the Mother of my Saviour.

Do I need the Bible to speak of a letter from Mary stating that she should be loved and respected? No one forces me to pray to Mary, I do it because I love and respect the Mother of my Saviour.

I need you to do something for me. I need you to prove to me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is an idol. Then when you do that, I’ll consider your point of view.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;4324244]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Lets see if its your problem to.
Lampo
It’s not.

So you have no problem with thinking and believing that Mary is:
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Our Lady, Gate of Heaven
Suppliant for Sinners

Wedded to God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The Scriptures is the only place that tells anything about Mary.
Lampo
Again, not true. The Magisterium tells us a lot about Mary. You just reject it.
It is true that all we know of Mary and her life is found only in the NT. There are no other reliable documents for her life. Since this is an undeniable fact where is the Magisterium and other writers on Mary getting their information on Mary if its not from Scripture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you know the Scriptures you will know that not one of these titles is ever applied to her not even hinted at.

Magisterium
Catholics do not adhere to the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura.

Even if that is the case you still need to look at where these titles and claims about Mary are coming from. Just because some teacher says something is true. Just take one example of Mary being “Wedded to God”. Do you believe this is true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I do. Did Luke use any of the titles for Mary above? Does exalt Mary the way the Catholic church has?

Lampo
Since you use the Scriptures to tell you that the writer of the Book of Luke is Luke, please provide chapter and verse that says this.

Luke never says that Mary is Wedded to God or that she is Suppliant for Sinners. Nor does Mary claim this for herself in any verse in Scripture.

---

AMDG
Catholic
Be patient with those in error (this is a Spiritual Work of Mercy)

 

[happilycatholic]

One of the most shocking things i find on these forums is that i don’t see catholics shocked by the things that are said about Mary and i think that part of the problem is that catholics don’t know the Scriptures that well and are unable to test the doctrines and practices of the church with the Scriptures. Instead catholics rely primarily and only on what the church says.

What do you do when you come across a fellow catholic who does not understand catholic doctrine correctly?

I am amazed you can say this. i have been accused countless times by my “friends” for asking to many questions. Even in our discussions i have asked quite a number of questions.

I do know the Scriptures well and am continuing to study catholic doctrines and practices. I wish more catholics and even protestants knew the Scriptures better. Ignorance of the Scriptures in Protestant churches is a major problem.

Do you know catholic teachings that well? Do you study the catechism?

So because I don’t quote scripture and I don’t quote the Catechism you believe that I don’t “know” them? Foolish. One has nothing to do with the other.

You quote scripture and other things because you want others to believe that you know them. I couldn’t care less if you think I know the scriptures and the catechism. Besides I could Google just about anything and make you believe I know scripture.

I’ve said this before. It is pointless for you and I to go back and forth about scripture and the catechism. You believe it says and/or doesn’t say something different than what I believe.

You cannot prove an argument with the argument

Besides I’ve told you, I’m not trying to prove anything. I don’t mind what your religious beliefs are. I don’t see why you mind what mine are. It seems to really get under your skin that I pray to Mary and won’t debate you as to why you don’t.

 

[Lampo]

So you have no problem with thinking and believing that Mary is:
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Our Lady, Gate of Heaven
Suppliant for Sinners

Wedded to God?

I have no problem if those are indeed names approved by the Church.

Luke never says that Mary is Wedded to God or that she is Suppliant for Sinners. Nor does Mary claim this for herself in any verse in Scripture.

How does this answer my question?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

One of the most shocking things i find on these forums is that i don’t see catholics shocked by the things that are said about Mary and i think that part of the problem is that catholics don’t know the Scriptures that well and are unable to test the doctrines and practices of the church with the Scriptures. Instead catholics rely primarily and only on what the church says.

I’m not shocked by any of them because I understand what they’re saying, and it’s not shocking at all. It might be to you because you’re not reading them with your eyes toward Christ. Think about who Christ is and they make perfect sense.

It was because I studied the Scriptures that I am now Catholic, so don’t think I’ll let you get away with saying that I “don’t know the Scriptures that well…” because it’s not true, nor is it at all factual that Catholics “rely primarily and only on what the church says.” I studied myself right into the Catholic Church by reading the Scriptures.

I do know the Scriptures well and am continuing to study catholic doctrines and practices. I wish more catholics and even protestants knew the Scriptures better. Ignorance of the Scriptures in Protestant churches is a major problem.

Catholics have the advantage of hearing nearly the entire Bible read to them over three years’ time. They may not know “Chapter and verse” which is a relatively recent invention anyway, but they know the Scriptures. Every Mass includes a reading from the Old Testament, a Psalm, a NT epistle, and a reading from one of the Gospels. I never ever heard that much Scripture read in one Baptist service.

Do you know catholic teachings that well? Do you study the catechism?

Personally, I had to be well acquainted with Catholicism before I would even consider attending Mass, let alone becoming Catholic myself, since I came from a faith tradition that taught me all sorts of nasty things about “Catholicism.” It was rather like having my face doused with icy water when I realized I’d been lied to, albeit unintentionally.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Where did the Lord Jesus give His mother as some kind of gift to the church and the apostles in their writings acknowledge this?

What specific teaching or letter did Mary write to the church for exhortation or encouragement?

happilycatholic;
Okay, questions. Good.

 

[Lampo]

It is true that all we know of Mary and her life is found only in the NT. There are no other reliable documents for her life. Since this is an undeniable fact where is the Magisterium and other writers on Mary getting their information on Mary if its not from Scripture?

You are wrong. There are many reliable Church documents regarding the Blessed Mother. You just reject most if not all of them. A lot of the information comes from the Church Fathers. Why did the early church fathers have such a strong belief in Mary’s role in Salvation history?