Hail Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter Reformed
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It means that the Archbishop of NY in 1856 thought it was a nice book. We are all entitled to our own opinions, even when we’re Archbishops. Still doesn’t mean the Church endorses it.
What exactly is an Archbishop?

Does he not carry authority in the Catholic church?

Does he not speak for the church?

Do you think he meant that this work has his approval as something good for catholics to read in the New York area?
 
petite_foireuse;4347403]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no proof for this.
petite_foireuse
You mean there is no scriptural proof. Ok, I’ll admit the proof (Genesis, which has been mentioned above, is not overwhelming).
More proof is to be found in the Church Fathers, meaning it has been believed from the first centuries on. As far as I know, that’s one of the requirements for “Rome” (in the sense of the Church authorities, first of all the Pope) to define a new dogma: There must be proof that it was believed by early Christian. Nothing new gets added, only defined more precisely.
There is a problem here also in say that “There must be proof that it was believed by early Christian”. Many of these doctrines on the Mary were not believed for centuries by the church.
Another proof still: Given the veneration early Christians already had for relicts of the saints, don’t you think we’d know where Mary tomb is, if there had been one?
This still does not necessarily mean she was assumed into heaven. In fact it is admitted by Catholic scholars they don’t know what happened to her.
The reason is the Assumption. But why would God grant such an unusual favor to any human, if she had not been “special” in some way, particularly faithful to him?
You are assuming she was assumed without any proof. There are no eyewitness documents to this.
So I guess now we get to discuss relict veneration and papal authority? But only after re-reading past threads on those topics, of course, and starting separate topics for each discussion 😉
As I said, you can’t take one article of the Catholic Faith and prove it all by itself. That is one thing that still amazes me after twelve years in the Church: how consistent it all is. If you don’t understand something, or something seems contradictory, try waiting a while, it’ll become clear at some point. But don’t assume you know it all better than the groups of bishops and cardinals who poured over the sources for many years before defining a new dogma. They’re the specialists, not we. We all have domains in which we’re the specialists, but its usually not theology.
Here is the problem. Things may look convincing on the “big picture” but when you start to study the details things fall apart. This where many claims fail. They cannot be supported by the details and if the details are not to be found then you don’t have Biblical support. This is then is a teaching of men
 
What exactly is an Archbishop?

Does he not carry authority in the Catholic church?

Does he not speak for the church?

Do you think he meant that this work has his approval as something good for catholics to read in the New York area?
Your ignorance is astounding.
 
There is such*** profound error*** in Protestant teaching on Mary. If you do not understand Mary, then you cannot understand the name of Jesus, Emmanuel, God with us.

If we accept Protestant teaching, then we accept that Mary’s only relevance to the Incarnation was having a body and conceiving Jesus by the Holy Spirit rather than through a natural man. She was an incubator. In fact, she didn’t even necessarily need to be a virgin according to Protestant teaching. She could have been like Elizabeth, the mother of John, who had been married many years and was barren. She could have simply become pregnant while Joseph was on vacation if we take Protestant teaching on Mary to its logical conclusion. The only thing that is important is that the Holy Spirit caused Jesus to begin to grow in her womb.

If we accept Protestant teaching, then the Holy Spirit’s union with Mary was hit and run. He came by, impregnated her, and then went back to the sky. Sort of like Zeus, or some other Greek mythological god. He certainly never made her His spouse.

If we accept Protestant teaching, that Jesus was born of a woman who was corrupted by original sin, then Jesus might as well have been born from the foam of the sea like Venus. His nature then takes nothing substantial from Mary, save his Jewish heritage.

The importance of realizing that when Jesus actually took Mary’s nature, (which was of a person who was free from the curse of original sin in preparation for the mediator between God and man to be born) and His father’s nature, is that He must have done so to truly bridge the gap between God and man. If he were not one with human nature, but simply emerged, divinely protected from sinful human nature, then He could not save us because He still would be remote from us. This is why Mary, as our Mother, is representative of the Church (us) and the Body of Christ (us), and our example in relationship to the Son.

Below the consubstantiality of Jesus with Mary is addressed by Fr. Peter Damien Fehlner:

Eutyches claimed that the hypostatic union defined as one person, therefore one nature, was merely a fusion, not a confusion of natures, and so the Son by virtue of His divinity remained “consubstantial” with the Father, as defined at the Council of Nicea (325).

St. Leo then posed to him the key question: in his (Eutyches’) view, was the Incarnate Son also “consubstantial” with us? Eutyches replied in the negative. Christ is truly human, but His humanity is a divinized humanity, whereas ours is merely an ordinary, natural humanity. Christ can save us because it is God alone Who is acting in His divinized humanity. In our terms, Mary is not a maternal Mediatrix Who actively begets the Saviour, but merely a virgin through Whom the divinized man passes to appear in the world as God-with-us.

St. Leo then explained why this view is just as fatally wrong as that of Nestorius: it renders null the entire purpose of the Incarnation, namely, that a divine Person without ceasing to be divine and so consubstantial with the Father becomes consubstantial with us in being born of the Virgin Mary. The humanity assumed by the Word hypostatically is a complete, fully natural human nature, consubstantial with ours. That is the realistic basis for our sharing in the divine nature (cf. 2 Pet 1: 4), in the adoption of sonship (cf. Gal 4: 4-7). All of this, as St. Paul hints, depends on the maternal Mediation of the Woman, whereby the Son of God came to be born as man, to be born under the law (of suffering for sin), but being man-God was able to save those under the law unable to save themselves. All this, St. Leo insists repeatedly, hinges on Christ’s consubstantiality with Mary. She is not merely Mother of Christ as Nestorius said, but virgin Mother of God. But as perpetual virgin, She is truly and not merely apparently mother of the God Who became man for our sake, that is of the Christ: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, exclaimed St. Peter (cf. Mt 16: 16).

Once we appreciate the “consubstantiality” of Jesus with Mary, we grasp why in a supernatural view of the Incarnation and Redemption, the maternal Mediation of Mary is so important. The Incarnation, as willed by God in the one economy of salvation, is Marian in mode, because Jesus and Mary are jointly predestined: Mediatrix in the Mediator. Of course Christ is our one and only Mediator (cf. 1 Tim 2: 5): not to the exclusion of our cooperation, and above all the unique cooperation of Mary, but to its inclusion. This is why He became Incarnate, says Bl. John Duns Scotus: not to exclude, but to make possible our cooperation in a truly human way. That is why the merit and satisfaction of Christ on the Cross and on the altar is not an action of God alone, but of a man Who is God. That is why in coming into the world and in leaving it He can be joined actively by His Mother, and through that Immaculate Mother by us. For through Her we are consubstantial with Him, both in being and in operation.

marymediatrix.com/magazine/home/the-marian-council-of-chalcedon/
 
Angels Unaware;4347927]And whatexactly is it about the intercession of Mary that you think interferes with Jesus as the Mediator and Redeemer of man with God?
There is only ONE mediator between God and men. Only one. To say that Mary or anyone else is necessary for direct access to Christ is to add what God never did.
Nothing in Catholic teaching ever makes this argument. That is your own distortion and twisting of teaching. Mary leads to Jesus (as do teachers and preachers of the Word, and as does Scripture). Jesus mediates between God and man.
There is no teaching in Scripture that says we are to implore Mary’s help in leading us to Christ. That job is done by the HS alone.
Upon what absurd assumption should the Lord’s prayer mention Mary? You are very confused if you believe our worship and prayers centers on Mary more than Jesus or to the exclusion of Jesus.
The rosary certainly does. The Hail Mary does when at the most crucial time in a person’s life i.e. death they prray to Mary.
Are you not aware that our weekly Mass never centers on Mary?
Which do you think catholics know best: prayers of the mass or the Hail Mary?
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
What exactly is an Archbishop?

Does he not carry authority in the Catholic church?

Does he not speak for the church?

Do you think he meant that this work has his approval as something good for catholics to read in the New York area?

Angels Unaware
Your ignorance is astounding.
How so? Perhaps you can answer these questions to help me clear up my ignorance.👍
 
How so? Perhaps you can answer these questions to help me clear up my ignorance.👍
Very interesting how you selectively read and selectively respond to the information that is given to you. Speaks to your general lack of forthrightness and integrity in examining these issues. An intellectually honest person would address all of the arguments, and have differing levels of agreement or disagreement with each one. You just ignore arguments that challenge your pre-conceived notions and arrogance.

To answer your first question, an Archbishop does not speak for Rome. However, you were already told to read the Catechism and determine whether official Church teaching was contradicted or not by the actual words in the book- which apparently you have never read, so you are setting up a straw man in even addressing the book. You don’t know exactly what it is teaching. (You don’t look closely enough at any teaching to really address it and argue with it- too brainwashed to understand before launching an attack!)
40.png
justasking4:
There is only ONE mediator between God and men. Only one. To say that Mary or anyone else is necessary for direct access to Christ is to add what God never did.
Now, this is enough to really begin to irritate and frustrate me. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION? HOW UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT TO PARROT BACK FALSE ARGUMENTS. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID YOU MUST GO THROUGH MARY TO REACH GOD THE FATHER, AND THAT IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION. INTERCESSION IS THE PRAYER AND PETITIONS OF SAINTS.

YOUR RIDICULOUS IDEAS (ABOUT CATHOLICISM) ARE WRONG
40.png
Justasking4:
There is no teaching in Scripture that says we are to implore Mary’s help in leading us to Christ. That job is done by the HS alone.
WHO said this??? NOT ME. If you were not so prejudiced, you would notice that I compared Mary’s example to YOU or the BIBLE leading a person to Christ.

And how profoundly arrogant for you to tell the Holy Spirit that HE may work through you or the Bible to lead someone to Christ, but He may not work through His Spouse!

Your distortions of the Rosary what you think Catholics know and understand in Mass are as frankly, STUPID and as IGNORANT as racism. You have been told OVER and OVER again that the Rosary is MEDITATES ON JESUS, through kinship with Mary, it does NOT CENTER ON MARY.

But you cannot comprehend. Your mind is seared with ignorance.
 
Angels Unaware;4348128]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How so? Perhaps you can answer these questions to help me clear up my ignorance.
Angels Unaware
Very interesting how you selectively read and selectively respond to the information that is given to you. Speaks to your general lack of forthrightness and integrity in examining these issues.
Very difficult to respond to all posters. If i did i would not be able to go sleep or breathe for that matter so i must choose.
An intellectually honest person would address all of the arguments, and have differing levels of agreement or disagreement with each one. You just ignore arguments that challenge your pre-conceived notions and arrogance.
Some challenges are not worth it since they have usually been refuted a number of times… 🤷
To answer your first question, an Archbishop does not speak for Rome. However, you were already told to read the Catechism and determine whether official Church teaching was contradicted or not by the actual words in the book- which apparently you have never read, so you are setting up a straw man in even addressing the book. You don’t know exactly what it is teaching. (You don’t look closely enough at any teaching to really address it and argue with it- too brainwashed to understand before launching an attack!)
My question has to do with approval. Does the church approve of this writing? It seems that when an arch bishops puts his seal of approval that it is profitable for catholics to read and believe. Correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is only ONE mediator between God and men. Only one. To say that Mary or anyone else is necessary for direct access to Christ is to add what God never did.
Angels Unaware
Now, this is enough to really begin to irritate and frustrate me. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION? HOW UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT TO PARROT BACK FALSE ARGUMENTS. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID YOU MUST GO THROUGH MARY TO REACH GOD THE FATHER, AND THAT IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION. INTERCESSION IS THE PRAYER AND PETITIONS OF SAINTS.
YOUR RIDICULOUS IDEAS ARE (ABOUT CATHOLICISM) WRONG
Where do the Scriptures say that Mary, after she died that people are to pray to her and she will bring your prayers to the Lord Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justasking4
There is no teaching in Scripture that says we are to implore Mary’s help in leading us to Christ. That job is done by the HS alone.
Angels Unaware
WHO said this??? NOT ME. If you were not so prejudiced, you would notice that I compared Mary’s example to YOU or the BIBLE leading a person to Christ.
I was responding to your comment that said --“And whatexactly is it about the intercession of Mary that you think interferes with Jesus as the Mediator and Redeemer of man with God?”

For Mary to intercede also implies that she is helping a person to lead them to Christ for His help.
And how profoundly arrogant for you to tell the Holy Spirit that HE may work through you or the Bible to lead someone to Christ, but He may not work through His Spouse!
Couple of things here. Mary is not the spouse of the HS. That is an unbiblical teaching that has absolutely no support from Scripture. I also suspect that this was unknown in the church for centuries. The HS does use circumstances, the Scriptures and the prayers to Christ by Christians to lead them to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
Your distortions of the Rosary what you think Catholics know and understand in Mass are as frankly, STUPID and as IGNORANT as racism. You have been told OVER and OVER again that the Rosary is MEDITATES ON JESUS, through kinship with Mary, it does NOT CENTER ON MARY.
How many of the prayers of the rosary are directed towards Mary? How many of the prayers of the rosary are said specifically in the “name of Christ”?
But you cannot comprehend. Your mind is seared with ignorance.
That’s why i’m here at CAF to help clear up this problem…👍
 
I just wonder what keeps JA4 from being banned? It seems others have been banned for lesser crimes on these forums. He must just tiptoe up to the line without crossing, I guess. Here are the lines that I question:

Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.​

5 - Constant (but minor) Boundary Testing

Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.​

Proselytizing Catholics or encouraging them to leave the Church​

 
JustAsking is on the other side of a closed door. She refuses to open it and come into the light.

She claims to ask questions but they are not questions, they are bait. Why would you ask a question and then totally refuse to accept the answer and move on? I’m not talking about agreeing with the answer, just accepting it.

There will be no intelligent conversation from JustAsking because she feels she already knows the answers and just wants to argue.
 
I have a better question for JustAsking, what the heck DO you believe?

Why don’t you just start your own, "Infallible Interpretations of the Scripture By JustAsking4).

Then we’ll all be enlightened regarding your superior knowledge.
 
Where do the Scriptures say…?
Why do you keep asking Catholics this question in CAF? By now, you **must **understand that not everything the Church teaches is **explicitly **in Scripture. **Do **you understand this?

I challenge you to answer my next question **honestly **and completely.

What is your purpose in participating here on CAF?
 
Oh…Is JA4 female? My apologies JA4 for calling you a “he” if you are not a he.
 
Oh…Is JA4 female? My apologies JA4 for calling you a “he” if you are not a he.
I’m beginning to think there is no person behind that ID, just a robot who gives a certain answer/reply when a certain question/comment is posted. :o
 
I could buy that.
Let me expound on that because I actually didn’t mean that as glib as it sounded.

Does anyone hear a ‘hint’ of faith in JA’s posts? Does anyone hear a ‘hint’ of Christianity in those posts? Or is it just knowlege of the Scriptures?

I am not challenging the Christianity of the poster, only the fact that it is absent in the posts.

Does anyone get the idea that JA might actually TRULY want to know and understand catholic faith?

There are people all over the world that can debate any given issue with Scripture. But it takes charity to say, “I understand”. Do you get that from JA? No, just more baiting.
 
Let me expound on that because I actually didn’t mean that as glib as it sounded.

Does anyone hear a ‘hint’ of faith in JA’s posts? Does anyone hear a ‘hint’ of Christianity in those posts? Or is it just knowlege of the Scriptures?

I am not challenging the Christianity of the poster, only the fact that it is absent in the posts.

Does anyone get the idea that JA might actually TRULY want to know and understand catholic faith?

There are people all over the world that can debate any given issue with Scripture. But it takes charity to say, “I understand”. Do you get that from JA? No, just more baiting.
I couldn’t agree more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top