Hail Mary

[Thing]

Did you look at the photo?

If you see something satanic in the image please feel free to point it out.

Apparitions etc. are approved or not over sometimes very long periods of time. Many are approved, many are not, some are still waiting.
Pope John Paul II visited this apparition site and celebrated mass there, something the Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church would not do if it were an unapproved site.

 

[Reformed]

Did you look at the photo?

If you see something satanic in the image please feel free to point it out.

Apparitions etc. are approved or not over sometimes very long periods of time. Many are approved, many are not, some are still waiting.
Pope John Paul II visited this apparition site and celebrated mass there, something the Pope, the leader of the Catholic Church would not do if it were an unapproved site.

What are the determining factors that an apparition is true and valid? If an apparation is rejected, what do you think it could be? I think you forgot to tell me what Mary is praying for me about. Please answer that question.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I actually don’t pray to Jesus. I pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus. How did the Lord Jesus Christ teach us to pray?

The Lord Jesus taught us the Our Father. Is Our Father the only prayer you ever pray then? This sounds to me like a denial that the Holy Trinity is One God. Praying to the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit is still praying to God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE, equal in power and glory. But if you’d rather, you can ask God the Father about His servant, Mary.

I don’t sound to be disrespectful or rude, but your suggestion reminds me of LDS Christians telling me to pray to God to see the truth about Joseph Smith.

I can see why you’d think that, but there are some distinct differences. Joseph Smith didn’t give birth to my Savior, didn’t even live at the time of Christ, and when he did live he created his own religion on the false premise that Christianity had gone apostate sometime (no one can give a date for it) and when JS “restored” it, it bore no resemblance to historic Christianity.

 

[Thing]

What is Mary praying for me about? How did you determine that?

Mary is praying for you soul, reformed. What else would she pray for. You pray for the souls of people on earth, so do those in heaven pray for the souls of those on earth.

What are the determining factors that an apparition is true and valid?

If it contradicts the Faith it is false.

Does something in this photo contradict the scriptural account?

If an apparation is rejected, what do you think it could be?

Unknown.
Could be malevolent humans or spirits, or a prank, or a mentally unstable persons delusion.

Did you look at the photo,reformed. Is there something in the image that contradicts your understanding of scriptures.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Do you mind sharing your sources about Martin Luther and John Calvin’s apparent devotion to Mary. I have read “The Institutes of Christian Religion” by John Calvin and I don’t remember reading anything about Mary.

“The Institutes” was not the only thing Calvin ever wrote.

  *Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.  * {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

 * [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. * {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

  *Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.

• {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son". Mary is a model of faithfulness as Elisabeth informs us. Because she kept the faith and the teachings, we have these teachings today. Through Mary, we are “built up”. This is her gift from God, and, because of this we can be led to him. Therefore Christians must try to follow the Blessed Virgin (mettons peine d’ensure la sainte vierge, roughly translated: Let us trouble to ensure the Holy Virgin.)

 

[mullenpm]

Reformed, I have hesitated to enter this thread because the posts have become very intellectual and my belief and devotion is very simple, so bear with me.

You have the impression, I believe, that Catholics do not love God as much as we love the Blessed Mother Mary and that we idolize her.

Every day, a hundred times a day, I say the simple little prayer “Jesus, I Love You.” During my evening prayers I say the Lord’s Prayer and I thank God for my life; it has had its ups and downs but it is a good life and I thank Our Lord for making my path easy.

I thank Him also for all the specific favors and graces he has given to me. Every night I thank Him again for these graces and favors.

But, I also say several Rosaries a day. I pray a Rosary for the people who ask for our help on CAF; and other requests for World Peace, the end of abortion, etc.

I have no problem asking our Blessed Mother to accept these prayers and present them to her Son, Our Lord Jesus. As a Catholic I believe that Mary is the Mother of God, whom better to ask for help.

When I was a child and I wanted a favor from my father, I usually went to my mother and asked her to intercede for me. As I was the only girl in a family of boys, I could have easily gotten the favor from my father, but I liked going to my mother so she could negotiate for me.

The same is true of our feelings for the Blessed Mother - we ask her to negotiate for us. That is not worshiping Mary, nor is it creating an idol.

I believe I am a “normal” Catholic and not unique in any way. I also believe that most Catholics think about Mary as I do and we don’t create an idol, even in our hearts.

This is my explanation for our feelings about Mary; sorry, I can’t document it with Gospel quotes.

:angel1: :harp:

 

[mark_a]

When I’ve realized holy Saints and living persons who have much devotion to Mary

also have greater love for Jesus and for their neighbors

And women in general.

 

[Reformed]

“The Institutes” was not the only thing Calvin ever wrote.

  *Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.  * {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

 * [On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. * {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

  *Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.

• {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son". Mary is a model of faithfulness as Elisabeth informs us. Because she kept the faith and the teachings, we have these teachings today. Through Mary, we are “built up”. This is her gift from God, and, because of this we can be led to him. Therefore Christians must try to follow the Blessed Virgin (mettons peine d’ensure la sainte vierge, roughly translated: Let us trouble to ensure the Holy Virgin.)

Please share the source that is highlighted in red. The other commentaries are fine.

 

[Reformed]

The Lord Jesus taught us the Our Father. Is Our Father the only prayer you ever pray then? This sounds to me like a denial that the Holy Trinity is One God. Praying to the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit is still praying to God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE, equal in power and glory. But if you’d rather, you can ask God the Father about His servant, Mary.

I can see why you’d think that, but there are some distinct differences. Joseph Smith didn’t give birth to my Savior, didn’t even live at the time of Christ, and when he did live he created his own religion on the false premise that Christianity had gone apostate sometime (no one can give a date for it) and when JS “restored” it, it bore no resemblance to historic Christianity.

Ahh… but God the Father and God the Son appeared to Joseph Smith (according the LDS Christians) to rescue us from the apostasy. Quite a mission.

 

[Reformed]

Mary is praying for you soul, reformed. What else would she pray for. You pray for the souls of people on earth, so do those in heaven pray for the souls of those on earth.

If it contradicts the Faith it is false.

Does something in this photo contradict the scriptural account?

Unknown.
Could be malevolent humans or spirits, or a prank, or a mentally unstable persons delusion.

Did you look at the photo,reformed. Is there something in the image that contradicts your understanding of scriptures.

Are you saying Mary is the key for the salvation and conversion of my soul? I thought Peter held the keys to the kingdom according to Roman Catholic teaching?

 

[Reformed]

Reformed, I have hesitated to enter this thread because the posts have become very intellectual and my belief and devotion is very simple, so bear with me.

You have the impression, I believe, that Catholics do not love God as much as we love the Blessed Mother Mary and that we idolize her.

Every day, a hundred times a day, I say the simple little prayer “Jesus, I Love You.” During my evening prayers I say the Lord’s Prayer and I thank God for my life; it has had its ups and downs but it is a good life and I thank Our Lord for making my path easy.

I thank Him also for all the specific favors and graces he has given to me. Every night I thank Him again for these graces and favors.

But, I also say several Rosaries a day. I pray a Rosary for the people who ask for our help on CAF; and other requests for World Peace, the end of abortion, etc.

I have no problem asking our Blessed Mother to accept these prayers and present them to her Son, Our Lord Jesus. As a Catholic I believe that Mary is the Mother of God, whom better to ask for help.

When I was a child and I wanted a favor from my father, I usually went to my mother and asked her to intercede for me. As I was the only girl in a family of boys, I could have easily gotten the favor from my father, but I liked going to my mother so she could negotiate for me.

The same is true of our feelings for the Blessed Mother - we ask her to negotiate for us. That is not worshiping Mary, nor is it creating an idol.

I believe I am a “normal” Catholic and not unique in any way. I also believe that most Catholics think about Mary as I do and we don’t create an idol, even in our hearts.

This is my explanation for our feelings about Mary; sorry, I can’t document it with Gospel quotes.

:angel1: :harp:

Thank you for your kind and gentle answer and post. I’m sure there is a balance that needs to be kept in regards to life of a Christian with Mary. Protestants too can create religous idols of the heart, and when I do it, I have to repent. If Mary enables you to love our Triune God with greater affection, then that’s wonderful! May we all grow in deeper love and affection for our Triune God as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Thing]

Are you saying Mary is the key for the salvation and conversion of my soul? I thought Peter held the keys to the kingdom according to Roman Catholic teaching?

Nope, you’re saying that.

Thats what I mean, your personal dislike is getting the better of you.

You never pray for anyone and yet you do pray for them and you ask them to pray for you. Are you the key to salvation for them or are they the key to salvation for you.
Or will St. Peter just lock up and throw away the keys.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Please share the source that is highlighted in red. The other commentaries are fine.

That’s what the part in parentheses is, I’m guessing it’s either from a sermon or paper of his entitled, “mettons peine d’ensure la sainte vierge.” I found it on wikipedia and that was the source listed in the footnotes.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Ahh… but God the Father and God the Son appeared to Joseph Smith (according the LDS [edited]) to rescue us from the apostasy. Quite a mission.

Yet nobody can tell us when the great apostasy happened, nobody knows where the alleged golden plates are, nobody else in the whole of Christendom ever believed that God was once a man who became one of many gods.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Are you saying Mary is the key for the salvation and conversion of my soul? I thought Peter held the keys to the kingdom according to Roman Catholic teaching?

Mary’s “Yes” to God’s will that she bear the Messiah was the key to Salvation coming into the world.

Might I ask that you refrain from using “Roman Catholic” when asking about our doctrines? There are 22 other Catholic Rites that are just as Catholic, have the same doctrines, and I’d hate to make them feel left out. The word Catholic suffices. It’ll save you some typing, too.

 

[Mannyfit75]

For some Roman Catholics, it may not be. For many Roman Catholics it is idolatry.

It is not idolatry. Mary is not worshipped here. She is honored and venerated. We literally obey the commandment, “honor your father and your mother.”

We Catholics view Mary as our Spiritual Mother since through our baptism, we have been become adopted brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

Jesus have a mother. John said it best, “Behold your mother.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

To answer your questions, Protestants don’t ask Mary and the Catholic Saints to intercede on our behalf. It’s a Catholic practice.

Actually, there has been a group of Protestants who have been reciting the rosary. Some Lutherans have started reciting it such as the Ecumenical Rosary.

Here are some info:

The Ecunemical Rosary was invented by Dennis Di Mauro, a Lutheran layperson and Theology PhD student at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

To answer your questions, Protestants don’t ask Mary and the Catholic Saints to intercede on our behalf. It’s a Catholic practice.

I did when I was a Protestant. It’s the same as asking anyone else to join you in prayer, yet better because they are in Heaven and no longer bound by their flesh.

 

[Reformed]

It is not idolatry. Mary is not worshipped here. She is honored and venerated. We literally obey the commandment, “honor your father and your mother.”

We Catholics view Mary as our Spiritual Mother since through our baptism, we have been become adopted brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

Jesus have a mother. John said it best, “Behold your mother.”

I think Jesus said it best.

Matthew 12

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Reformed]

Mary’s “Yes” to God’s will that she bear the Messiah was the key to Salvation coming into the world.

Might I ask that you refrain from using “Roman Catholic” when asking about our doctrines? There are 22 other Catholic Rites that are just as Catholic, have the same doctrines, and I’d hate to make them feel left out. The word Catholic suffices. It’ll save you some typing, too.

I thought the Catholics from the Eastern Church deny the apostolic succession claimed by the west. Yet, the East and West both claim to be The One True Church. Which is the One True Church?