Hail Mary

[leg]

You are getting into teachings that I cannot receive about Mary. I can only go as far as God speaks through the Scirptures. Mary is highly praised within the context of Luke 1. Scripture bears witness that Mary too was a sinner who rejoices in God as her savior. Only Jesus Christ (fully God and fully man) was sinless and perfectly did the Father’s will. Jesus and Mary are completely different. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, and Mary was a created being to glorify God. They are miles apart. It is very difficult to support the sinlessness of Mary, perpetual virginiity, assumption, and being co-redeemer with Holy Scripture.

If one who professes to be a Christian and to believe in the Bible thinks to please Christ by speaking contemptuously of His Mother, he is very much mistaken. I do not know whether you hold your own mother in reverence and esteem. But I will presume that you do. And I will merely say that Jesus was a far better Son to His Mother than you ever have been to yours. If you would resent any attempt to belittle your mother, you have a faint indication of what Christ thinks of such words as yours. As for your remarks, selection by an infinitely wise God is not a haphazard proceeding. There were reasons for the selection of Mary rather than others, and those reasons had to do with her holiness and fitness above all others for the immense dignity. You see the supernatural element in a conversion, where you go beyond your own study, where you go beyond your own effort and your own insight conversation and readings, the real supernatural proof is marian devotion. Your answer lies in You praying the rosary and witness how the rosary can supernatuarlize your whole process of your studies and so on.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Originally Posted by Linda Marie
I asked what you meant with this quote before, but you did not clarify. How do you interpret this?

First, you haven’t answered the question - what does this passage which you are so fond of quoting say to you?

Second - it wasn’t a teaching about Mary, but about the followers of Christ. If they do the same as Mary did in doing the Will of the Father, perfectly or not, they, too, can be family of God, not just servants or slaves as was their status before. Saying that they are now family, does not make Mary no longer His mother.

Mary is the mother of Jesus, God and man. Jesus, being God, absolutely would not have, could not have broken his own commandment and dishonoured his mother. She was His mother and always will be His mother and there is nothing that can ever change that. Think about that family relationship. Although we can be adopted family, we will never ever be His actual mother.

She was chosen for this out of all women for all time. It wasn’t a random choice. Not just anyone could be the mother of God. God created her especially for this and gifted her with graces none of the rest of us will ever receive so to enable her to carry out His Will by giving her flesh for the Incarnation of the Word. Any honour of Mary, is honouring God who made her.

We can look at a magnificent sunset and say,“Wow, what a beautiful sunset.” and gaze at it in wonder and admiration. We know it is God’s creation and our wonder and admiration is directed also to the Creator of that sunset. We know Mary is God’s creation, and like the magnificent sunset, she is magnificent. God created her that way.

We give her honour as we quote the Angel Gabriel when he greeted her, “Hail, Full of Grace”.
This was originally wirtten in koine Greek. “Chaire, Kecharitomene” Here is an article about what Kecharitomene actually means. It doesn’t translate well into English.
Even the angels who stand in the very Presence of God give her honour. How can we do less?

 

[adstrinity]

It is poor to compare the Catholic and Ortiodox Churches to the Mormons as the two former can trace/proove their beginings back to Christ. Mormons go beyond reformed to revised and claim NOBODY got it right and they had to bring it back. Mary hears our prayers and perpetually talks with God. Joseph Smith does not.

 

[Reformed]

If one who professes to be a Christian and to believe in the Bible thinks to please Christ by speaking contemptuously of His Mother, he is very much mistaken. I do not know whether you hold your own mother in reverence and esteem. But I will presume that you do. And I will merely say that Jesus was a far better Son to His Mother than you ever have been to yours. If you would resent any attempt to belittle your mother, you have a faint indication of what Christ thinks of such words as yours. As for your remarks, selection by an infinitely wise God is not a haphazard proceeding. There were reasons for the selection of Mary rather than others, and those reasons had to do with her holiness and fitness above all others for the immense dignity. You see the supernatural element in a conversion, where you go beyond your own study, where you go beyond your own effort and your own insight conversation and readings, the real supernatural proof is marian devotion. Your answer lies in You praying the rosary and witness how the rosary can supernatuarlize your whole process of your studies and so on.

Jesus is the eternal God, the Alpha and Omega. He has no beginning. I’m sorry, you overemphasize the humanity of Jesus at the cost of His deity. Mary was a sinner like the rest of us who rejoiced in Her savior. Within Marian devotion and doctrine, the Roman Catholic Church has gone way beyond what is written. It will be interesting to see if the teaching of Mary as co-redeemer becomes official dogma. Doesn’t other world religions hold Mary to high esteem too? What is the Islamic view of Mary?

 

[Reformed]

It is poor to compare the Catholic and Ortiodox Churches to the Mormons as the two former can trace/proove their beginings back to Christ. Mormons go beyond reformed to revised and claim NOBODY got it right and they had to bring it back. Mary hears our prayers and perpetually talks with God. Joseph Smith does not.

"Mary intercedes on the behalf of sinners, whether we ask her to or not. "

The Holy Scriptures bears testimony that Jesus intercedes on behalf of believes, and the 3rd person of the godhead intercedes on behalf of believers.

Where in the Holy Scriptures does it state or imply that Mary intercedes on the behalf of sinners, whether we ask her to or not? Are you saying Mary intercedes for believers and unbelievers alike? If so, doesn’t that practice invade the free will of man as so many proclaim on this forum? Did you know Scripture bears witness that Jesus was not praying for the world? Is the Catholic version of Mary in conflict with the prayer of Jesus if Mary is praying for the entire world? Don’t get me wrong, I do honor and love the Mary and Apostle Peter revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

John 17

The High Priestly Prayer

17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. [1] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them [2] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, [3] that they also may be sanctified [4] in truth.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Catholic_Rube]

Reformed I have two things for you. First of all some posts above have laid out the “Hail Mary” prayer backing it up using Sacred Scripture. So yes the Hail Mary is scriptural. Why did you not bother to reply back to them? Second let me lead you through a little logic.

1. Jesus is God
2. Since Jesus is GOD He does everything perfectly.
3. Since He does everything perfectly he fullfilled the Ten Commandments perfectly.
4. The 2nd Commandment (I believe) is HONOR your father and MOTHER.
5. In one of Paul’s letters we are called to imitate Christ.
   So I ask you, will you imitate Christ in honoring his Mother?

 

[Reformed]

Reformed I have two things for you. First of all some posts above have laid out the “Hail Mary” prayer backing it up using Sacred Scripture. So yes the Hail Mary is scriptural. Why did you not bother to reply back to them? Second let me lead you through a little logic.

1. Jesus is God
2. Since Jesus is GOD He does everything perfectly.
3. Since He does everything perfectly he fullfilled the Ten Commandments perfectly.
4. The 2nd Commandment (I believe) is HONOR your father and MOTHER.
5. In one of Paul’s letters we are called to imitate Christ.
   So I ask you, will you imitate Christ in honoring his Mother?

I do honor Mary as it is written. I don’t think Jesus created Mary into an idol, because that would be a sin. Do you understand that Marian doctrine goes way beyond the Holy Scriptures? Roman Catholicism has created a Mary that is not revealed in the Scriptures, which leads to apparent idolatry. I am posting this one picture to make a point only. I have no idea if the original source was from a Roman Catholic. I am no way related to the current link to the image, nor do I endorse that site. However, if the image was created by a Roman Catholic, then that should be a wake-up call for you.



Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Thing]

There is no link posted.

What is the difference between apparent idolatry and idolatry?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I do honor Mary as it is written.

You do realize that “as it is written” is not how Catholics choose what is what we should do, right?

I don’t think Jesus created Mary into an idol, because that would be a sin.

Show me where anyone is proposing that Mother Mary is to be made into an idol?

Do you understand that Marian doctrine goes way beyond the Holy Scriptures?

Once again, scripture is only one part of the deposit of faith. We understand that you don’t accept any authority other than scripture (except for your tradition of sola scriptura), but do you understand that we don’t agree with you about that?

Roman Catholicism has created a Mary that is not revealed in the Scriptures, which leads to apparent idolatry.

You see idolatry where there is no idolatry. It’s as simple as that. Mary has been revealed to Catholics as what the Church, which is the voice of God most authentically presented, says she must be. You are not forced to have to accept that.

I am posting this one picture to make a point only. I have no idea if the original source was from a Roman Catholic. I am no way related to the current link to the image, nor do I endorse that site. However, if the image was created by a Roman Catholic, then that should be a wake-up call for you.

Why?

What is wrong with it?

 

[Reformed]

There is no link posted.

What is the difference between apparent idolatry and idolatry?

Idolatry is a sin. All sin is against God. Man Judges by the outward appearance, but God knows the heart. Only God knows when I have created something into an idol. So too with the Roman Catholic Mary as an apparent idol. There are over 1 billion Catholics in this world. Are you saying that not one Catholic has created the Roman Catholic Mary into an idol and therefore, is sinning against God? There is a wide diversity on this site in what Catholics believe and proclaim. Even within this one thread, there are different beliefs and affections toward the Roman Catholic Mary. Some of the posts are fine, and some seem to be obvious idol worship of the Catholic Mary.

 

[Reformed]

You do realize that “as it is written” is not how Catholics choose what is what we should do, right?

Show me where anyone is proposing that Mother Mary is to be made into an idol?

Once again, scripture is only one part of the deposit of faith. We understand that you don’t accept any authority other than scripture (except for your tradition of sola scriptura), but do you understand that we don’t agree with you about that?

You see idolatry where there is no idolatry. It’s as simple as that. Mary has been revealed to Catholics as what the Church, which is the voice of God most authentically presented, says she must be. You are not forced to have to accept that.

I am posting this one picture to make a point only. I have no idea if the original source was from a Roman Catholic. I am no way related to the current link to the image, nor do I endorse that site. However, if the image was created by a Roman Catholic, then that should be a wake-up call for you.

Really, you have no problem with Mary as co-redeemer? Was Mary crucified for you? Do most Roman Catholic receive the image of Mary with the pierced hands as being from God?

Divisions in the Church

10 I appeal to you, brothers, [1] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1 Cor 1

 

[Thing]

Idolatry is a sin. All sin is against God. Man Judges by the outward appearance, but God knows the heart. Only God knows when I have created something into an idol. So too with the Roman Catholic Mary as an apparent idol. There are over 1 billion Catholics in this world. Are you saying that not one Catholic has created the Roman Catholic Mary into an idol and therefore, is sinning against God? There is a wide diversity on this site in what Catholics believe and proclaim. Even within this one thread, there are different beliefs and affections toward the Roman Catholic Mary. Some of the posts are fine, and some seem to be obvious idol worship of the Catholic Mary.

Are you accusing someone of the idol-worshipping of Mary? or are you just casting aspersions.

Sometimes I have an image of that line where it says that satan stands before God accusing His people by day and by night.

Every Catholic here has told all who ask that they do not worship Mary.

Reformed, ask everyone here if they worship Bread and a cup of Wine.

You may accuse them of that, why don’t you?

Believe their answers.

 

[Reformed]

Are you accusing someone of the idol-worshipping of Mary?

Sometimes I have an image of that line where it says that satan stands before God accusing His people by day and by night.

Every Catholic here has told all who ask that they do not worship Mary.

Reformed, ask everyone here if they worship Bread and a cup of Wine.

You may accuse them of that, why don’t you?

Believe their answers.

That’s a very arrogant thing to say, since the true Christian life is one of repentance and faith. We repent of our idols, and turn back to God in faith as a pattern of the Christian life. Do you really think not one Catholic drifts into worshipping Mary as an idol? What does the Apostle John write to the church at the end of his first Epistile? I think your zeal has blinded you to the truth of the Christian pilgrimage. Sometimes works-righteousness will lead to self-righteousness.

In your silence, I assume that the image of Mary being crucified for you is fine with you?

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Man judges by the outward appearance, but only God knows the heart. All I can share is my fallible perspective. There is a great great affection for the Roman Catholic Church and Mary over love and affection for God alone. Read the postings and look for this theme.

Of course you are wrong here as you are wrong in most of your assertions. Catholics do not love Mary over and above God. That is just silly. Catholics Love Mary, The Mother of God. Catholics also love our CHildren, Our motheres & afathers, we even Love you. We Love God above all things even his Mother!

So it is true, what you say that your ideas are fallible! I just wish that you would understand that your interpretation of the Bible is just as misguided as your ideas of how Catholics relate to the world and our God’s Saints.

Peace!

 

[Thing]

That’s a very arrogant thing to say, since the true Christian life is one of repentance and faith. We repent of our idols, and turn back to God in faith. Do you really think not one Catholic drifts into worshipping Mary as an idol? What does the Apostle John write to the church at the end of his first Epistile? I think your zeal has blinded you to the truth of the Christian pilgrimage. Sometimes works-righteousness will lead to self-righteousness.

I hear a lot of talk.

Go ahead and accuse the Catholics here of worshipping Bread and Wine.

 

[prodigal-sun]

That’s a very arrogant thing to say, since the true Christian life is one of repentance and faith. We repent of our idols, and turn back to God in faith. **Do you really think not one Catholic drifts into worshipping Mary as an idol? ** What does the Apostle John write to the church at the end of his first Epistile? I think your zeal has blinded you to the truth of the Christian pilgrimage. Sometimes works-righteousness will lead to self-righteousness.

Do you have proof of a Catholic worshipping Mary as an Idol! Please show us this! If not, why do you feel it neccessary to judge someones faith or lack there of. You have no Idea what is in someones heart.

Peace!

 

[Reformed]

I hear a lot of talk.

Go ahead and accuse the Catholics here of worshipping Bread and Wine.

Let’s stick with the thread topic. Have you received the image of Mary as being crucified for you as an image that is acceptable to God?

 

[Thing]

reformed:

In your silence, I assume that the image of Mary being crucified is fine with you?

Post the link. Its very interesting.

 

[Reformed]

Do you have proof of a Catholic worshipping Mary as an Idol! Please show us this! If not, why do you feel it neccessary to judge someones faith or lack there of. You have no Idea what is in someones heart.

Peace!

You guys are asking for proof. Maybe the answers to this question is the proof that you want. Please answer to all who are willing to answer.

Have you received the image of Mary as being crucified for you as an image that is acceptable to God?

 

[prodigal-sun]

I
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

So do you hate your own Mother & Father? How about your Children? Of course this would fly in the face of one of God’s Written Commandments… Don’t ya think!