Hail Mary

[ricmat]

Reformed, this might be useful to you. Go to the page listed below and download the document called MARY - MOTHER OF JESUS. This is a short presentation I use for high school age Catholics who are in confirmation classes. It is my best attempt to explain some of the issues you raise.

sites.google.com/site/catholicresources/Home/catholic-teaching-documents

Here is the link to the actual document but it doesn’t always work…

sites.google.com/site/catholicresources/Home/Mary_powerpoint.pdf

 

[Reformed]

It either is idolatry or it is not. Which is it, reformed?

“…from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.”

Pray to Mary. You acknowledge the great things He has done to her, by asking for her prayers.

For some Roman Catholics, it may not be. For many Roman Catholics it is idolatry.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed… I was soooo trying to stay out of this thread… but alas… I can not. You are trying to get Catholics to explain their devotion to Mary by using sola scriptura… that doesn’t work! We don’t just have the Bible so we don’t just use the Bible… we have the Bible, We have Traditions, we have the ECF writings and we have the magisterium. ]

I think you are trying to say that your devotion to Mary cannot be supported in the Holy Scirptures.

And that is the key of our differences. This is also the major issue and driving force of the Protestant Reformation. And, this is the reason why Protestants and Roman Catholics cannot ever unite on this side of glory. LDS Christians, and Jehovah Witnesses don’t just use the Bible too, they all use their extra-biblical revelation, and their own churches teachings too over the Scriptures. The Holy Scripture has to remain the final authority from God because all forms of magisterium is made up of fallible men. And we know all Christians are not perfected in this life. Holy Scripture is God-breathed and not Sacred oral and written tradition.

 

[Robbinson]

I think you are trying to say that your devotion to Mary cannot be supported in the Holy Scirptures.

And that is the key of our differences. This is also the major issue and driving force of the Protestant Reformation. And, this is the reason why Protestants and Roman Catholics cannot ever unite on this side of glory. LDS Christians, and Jehovah Witnesses don’t just use the Bible too, they all use their extra-biblical revelation, and their own churches teachings too over the Scriptures. The Holy Scripture has to remain the final authority from God because all forms of magisterium is made up of fallible men. And we know all Christians are not perfected in this life. Holy Scripture is God-breathed and not Sacred oral and written tradition.

Reformed:

Thank you for the respectful way you have been framing your posts and replies.

A few observations. First, I think some of the responses in this thread have in fact directly addressed your question regarding the purpose and scriptural basis for prayers to Mary to intercede for others/us. The Hail Mary comes directly from the scriptures as pointed out above. Mary was the intercessor at the wedding of Cana and Jesus reacted to her petition. The Saints are a cloud of witnesses in heaven to us.

Second. There is nothing in scripture which tells us we can’t our shouldn’t ask others to pray for us (dont’ you ever ask friends to pray for you?) - that includes friends here on earth and those saints (believers) who have died and are now in heaven with Christ.

Third - and very importantly - where in the Bible itself does it tell us that we should rely on the Bible alone as the exclusive authority? (There is no such verse). On the contrary, the Bible explicitly tells us that all scripture is helpful to us (and it is), but also tells us to follow the “oral” and written traditions handed down to us. In fact, we relied exclusively on those traditions until the scriptures were written and then thereafter as the cannon was finalized (which itself, was a product of tradition) and that took almost 400 years. There are also specific verses giving the apostles authority (matt 16:18-19) (Matt 18:17-18) and Luke 10:16. Respecfully, God did not give us the scriptures as a “play book” to be our exclusive guide, he gave us the Church (which will stand until the end times) which uses the scriptures, and interpretation of the scriptures, and traditions (going back to the Apostles) (but traditions never inconsistent with scriptures) as the entire deposit of faith.

Thus, prayers to Mary and other Saints for intercession are both consistent with scripture and certainly not precluded by scripture - and scripture alone (while the battle cry of the reformation) is itself a man-made doctrine and not stated in scripture itself (thus violating its own battle cry).

The irony is that the reformed “traditions” of the reformation are in fact man made traditions which have resulted in new interpretations of scripture at significant variance from the interpretations held by the early Church fathers going all the way back to the Apostles. A great example of this is the doctrine of eternal security.

I look forward to your further posts , as they are very well reasoned and respectful, even though I imagine will will disagree, theologically.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Thank for that clarification. Can you help me find biblical support for this practice? I thought we are instructed in Scripture to go through Christ our mediator as we make our requests to our Heavenly Father? Scirpture bears testimony that both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is interceding on behalf of God’s adopted children. Where in Scripture tells us that Mary can and is interceding for us. The 2nd and 3rd person of the godhead is infinitely superior to Mary who is a created being.

Romans 8

Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 12

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. [1] 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Christians are in Christ. Christ is in them. They are in the Father. Christ is in the Father. The Spirit is in Christians, who are in the Spirit & in the heavenlies in Christ. So the Saints in Heaven - who are perfected saints; saints as they should be - are in the Divine Persons, Who are in them. God fills heaven and earth, as does His Glory, which the disciples saw; & Christ has ascended above the heavens, & is seated at the right of the Majesty on high.​

So the NT gives us a very rich picture of the mutual indwelling of God in His saints (who are parts of one another & members of Christ). So praying to the Saints - such as the BVM - is not a linear activity like shooting an arrow; it’s a form of communion with & in Christ & for & through & to Him. What it is not in in any respect, is like addressing ourselves to the BVM instead of to Christ. That is like suggesting that the sun causes the crops to grow, instead of God. If God did not maintain the sun in its strength & efficacy, it would not shine or even exist. He is the Author of the entirety of each & every one of His creatures, & of the entirety of all their acts. Including all possibility of prayer to His Saints.

As to Matthew 12.46 ff., that is not a difficulty, any more than the OT verse “I will not give My Glory to another” is a difficulty for Catholic belief in the Deity of Christ. If it relevant at all, it points to the necessity of having the same purpose as Christ. Which is self-evidently necessary for all Christians.

 

[leg]

Maybe this will help you understand why we honor Mary, but before I begin to explain, you have to agree with me on two points which are " christ obeyed the law perfectly, right? And the Ten Commandments sum up that law right? And the first commandments deals with our fellow human relations is honor your father and mother, right? And so when Christ fulfills the law he fulfills that command honor your father and mother, the hebrew word for honor means to glorify, honor. So Christ honors he bestows honor, he glorifies, he bestows glory upon his mom, right? We imitate Christ, the Catholic Church is not exalting Mary, Jesus beat us to it, we’re just echoing, imitating our Lord

 

[Reformed]

Maybe this will help you understand why we honor Mary, but before I begin to explain, you have to agree with me on two points which are " christ obeyed the law perfectly, right? And the Ten Commandments sum up that law right? And the first commandments deals with our fellow human relations is honor your father and mother, right? And so when Christ fulfills the law he fulfills that command honor your father and mother, the hebrew word for honor means to glorify, honor. So Christ honors he bestows honor, he glorifies, he bestows glory upon his mom, right? We imitate Christ, the Catholic Church is not exalting Mary, Jesus beat us to it, we’re just echoing, imitating our Lord

I believe like you do that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. Jesus is the 2nd person of the godhead who is eternal. It seems Roman Catholicism’s view of Mary focuses too much on the aspect to Jesus’ humanity as compared to his eternal deity. It also seems that Roman Catholicism had a tendecy to raise Mary to an elevated status. Therefore, there is a tendency to create Mary as an idol in Roman Catholicism. There seems to be greater affection for Mary than for Jesus. Please explain this text in regards to your post above:

Matthew 12

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Thing]

For some Roman Catholics, it may not be. For many Roman Catholics it is idolatry.

I want you to tell me if the Hail Mary prayer is idolatry or not.

 

[Linda_Marie]

For some Roman Catholics, it may not be. For many Roman Catholics it is idolatry.

This is a pretty blanket statement without giving anything other than your opinion to back it up. How do you know that ‘many’ Catholics are worshiping Mary? Can you read their hearts?

There is no tendency to create Mary as an idol in Catholicism. Nor is there any tendency in the Church to make Jesus entirely human. In fact, the title of ‘Mother of God’ was given to Mary to state the truth about Christ’s eternal divinity. She gave birth to God Himself, the Second Person of the Trinity.

In being so honoured by God, we honour Mary too. Above all other human beings, she is exalted. We didn’t exalt her - God did. We merely recognise what God already did in choosing Mary as His mother. Think about it. God himself dwelt physically within her body, taking His flesh from her flesh. No other human being has ever been so honoured or exalted.

You have been told, over and over, that we do not worship her, nor replace Christ with her. Do you know that the Church has the penalty of excommunication for anyone who worships Mary? Worship of Mary is expressly forbidden.

Veneration is not worship. We honour Mary because God honoured her. We love Mary because God loves her.

In fact, without Jesus, any honour of Mary would be meaningless. She is honoured because of her relationship with God. We give honour to Mary because God honoured her in the first place.

Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way replaces Jesus as our intercessor with the Father.

What point are you trying to make with your quote from Matthew? Are you trying to say that Mary, somehow, did not do the Will of the Father?

 

[Reformed]

This is a pretty blanket statement without giving anything other than your opinion to back it up. How do you know that ‘many’ Catholics are worshiping Mary? Can you read their hearts?

There is no tendency to create Mary as an idol in Catholicism. Nor is there any tendency in the Church to make Jesus entirely human. In fact, the title of ‘Mother of God’ was given to Mary to state the truth about Christ’s eternal divinity. She gave birth to God Himself, the Second Person of the Trinity.

In being so honoured by God, we honour Mary too. Above all other human beings, she is exalted. We didn’t exalt her - God did. We merely recognise what God already did in choosing Mary as His mother. Think about it. God himself dwelt physically within her body, taking His flesh from her flesh. No other human being has ever been so honoured or exalted.

You have been told, over and over, that we do not worship her, nor replace Christ with her. Do you know that the Church has the penalty of excommunication for anyone who worships Mary? Worship of Mary is expressly forbidden.

Veneration is not worship. We honour Mary because God honoured her. We love Mary because God loves her.

In fact, without Jesus, any honour of Mary would be meaningless. She is honoured because of her relationship with God. We give honour to Mary because God honoured her in the first place.

Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way replaces Jesus as our intercessor with the Father.

What point are you trying to make with your quote from Matthew? Are you trying to say that Mary, somehow, did not do the Will of the Father?

We can make anything an idol. Protestants create religious idols too. Catholics have posted on this forum site that agree that some have created Mary into a religious idol. I too can make Reformed Theology a religious idol, or we can create something in our own religious community as our savior, replacing Jesus Christ. It is the struggle that we all have as Christians. It is very striking to a non-Catholic Christian for how much attention Mary is given in absence of that same affection for God. Here is a challenge:

Do you have more intercessory prayers through Mary than through Jesus?

 

[tGette]

We can make anything an idol. Protestants create religious idols too. Catholics have posted on this forum site that agree that some have created Mary into a religious idol. I too can make Reformed Theology a religious idol, or we can create something in our own religious community as our savior, replacing Jesus Christ. It is the struggle that we all have as Christians. It is very striking to a non-Catholic Christian for how much attention Mary is given in absence of that same affection for God. Here is a challenge:

Do you have more intercessory prayers through Mary than through Jesus?

My response to this will and always will be ( “you” is a generic “you” ):

Do you talk to people more often than you talk to Jesus?
Do you spend more time sleeping than praying?
Do you spend more time talking in prayer than listening?
Do you spend more money on gifts for your wife/husband/children than you do for Jesus?

 

[Reformed]

My response to this will and always will be ( “you” is a generic “you” ):

Do you talk to people more often than you talk to Jesus?
Do you spend more time sleeping than praying?
Do you spend more time talking in prayer than listening?
Do you spend more money on gifts for your wife/husband/children than you do for Jesus?

It seems to me you are saying that asking Mary to pray for you is like asking other people to pray for you, right?

I think Protestants in general will pray directly to God through Christ, as compared to asking others to pray for you. We do ask others to intercede on our behalf, but more time is spent praying to our Heavenly Father through Christ. It is a direct path to the throne of Grace which we can come boldly and with confidence.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews 4

 

[tGette]

It seems to me you are saying that asking Mary to pray for you is like asking other people to pray for you, right?

I think Protestants in general will pray directly to God through Christ, as compared to asking others to pray for you. We do ask others to intercede on our behalf, but more time is spent praying to our Heavenly Father through Christ. It is a direct path to the throne of Grace which we can come boldly and with confidence.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews 4

Again, I have to leave to accomplish some things, but I will quickly say this:

God has left the continuation of His Kingdom into the hands of human beings. It is up to us, by cooperating with His grace to proclaim the Good News.

So for me to draw near to the throne of grace, I must rely on the people of the past being faithful and having already drawn near to the throne of grace to learn how to draw near to the throne of grace.

It was their prayers and works and good deeds that have, by God’s grace, built the Kingdom on Earth to where it is today. With one less prayer my faith might not be what it is today.

My point being…If we rely on our Christian ancestors to pass on the faith and our Christian descendants rely on our faith to pass on the faith to them, then:

Why can we not rely on the help of prayers of Christians who have gone through this world and now actually SEE THE THRONE OF GRACE (capitalization for emphasis…not yelling!) ???

In summation…as to what you asked…yes…If I can ask others to pray for me…why not ask Mary…or any Saint for that matter?

I devote time to my earthly mother…so I also devote time to my Heavenly Mother!

 

[Reformed]

Again, I have to leave to accomplish some things, but I will quickly say this:

God has left the continuation of His Kingdom into the hands of human beings. It is up to us, by cooperating with His grace to proclaim the Good News.

So for me to draw near to the throne of grace, I must rely on the people of the past being faithful and having already drawn near to the throne of grace to learn how to draw near to the throne of grace.

It was their prayers and works and good deeds that have, by God’s grace, built the Kingdom on Earth to where it is today. With one less prayer my faith might not be what it is today.

My point being…If we rely on our Christian ancestors to pass on the faith and our Christian descendants rely on our faith to pass on the faith to them, then:

Why can we not rely on the help of prayers of Christians who have gone through this world and now actually SEE THE THRONE OF GRACE (capitalization for emphasis…not yelling!) ???

In summation…as to what you asked…yes…If I can ask others to pray for me…why not ask Mary…or any Saint for that matter?

I devote time to my earthly mother…so I also devote time to my Heavenly Mother!

That’s the distinction. We have a different understanding of what Christ accomplished in His life and death on our behalf. God is not dependent upon human beings to accomplish all that He ordains. God causes human beings to conform to His will. It is written throughout the OT and NT that God changes the hearts and minds of men to accomplish His will. If God intervenes, then mankind does not have free will at that point. Who hardened the heart of Pharaoh?

 

[bpbasilphx]

? Why center so much on Mary as compared to Christ Jesus?

Have you ever noticed whose name is right smack dab in the center of the Hail Mary?

 

[Thing]

reformed:

We do ask others to intercede on our behalf, but more time is spent praying to our Heavenly Father through Christ.

So I take it you ask Mary as well as others to intercede on your behalf. In other words you pray the Hail Mary, .’…Mother of God pray for us sinners …’

 

[Zooey]

[
"Reformed:
kbvm.com/index.php?option…tpage&Itemid=1](http://www.kbvm.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)
I’m sorry, but I have to http://bestsmileys.com/lol/10.gif a little…
Has anyone else noted the station call letters??
“Have you talked to your mother today”??

Man judges by the outward appearance, but only God knows the heart. All I can share is my fallible perspective.

Yes. And here is a problem.
I had to leave & come back to realize what was happening here: You are fallible,you are looking on outward appearances, & yet-- you *assume *that what you seem to see/hear, is what is in the heart.
You refer at times to “chanting”, yet that is…You know, chanting is the farthest thing I can imagine from a description of prayer. The words are as nothing. The heart is firmly planted in the words of the scriptures, remembering each mystery.
When I had several power cuts recently, it was all but impossible to fall asleep so early. I went to bed w/my rosary, & went thru all 20 mysteries before I fell asleep. I suppose if you could have heard me, I would have appeared to be chanting…but I was reliving the life of Our Lord, watching it along with the best of all possible mothers, who lived it all with Him. Who lives with Him now, in the Heavenlies.
Praise God!!

It seems to me you are saying that asking Mary to pray for you is like asking other people to pray for you, right?

Yes. Except that sometimes others say they will pray, & never get around to it.
The cat throws up on your shoes, the baby spikes a fever, the car runs out of gas, you trip over your own feet & have to pick yourself up… Prayer goes out the window.
And all the time, Mary goes on praying. No interruptions where she is!!

I think Protestants in general will pray directly to God through Christ, as compared to asking others to pray for you.

You might be surprised…

We do ask others to intercede on our behalf, but more time is spent praying to our Heavenly Father through Christ. It is a direct path to the throne of Grace which we can come boldly and with confidence.
Hebrews 4

Yes…but again: How many times have you said, " I will be praying for you", & realized after you were about to fall asleep, that:crying: you have forgotten in the everyday busy-ness of this earthly life??

And who covers for you, when that happens??:yup: Mom, of course.
She’s like that.:extrahappy:

 

[tGette]

That’s the distinction. We have a different understanding of what Christ accomplished in His life and death on our behalf. God is not dependent upon human beings to accomplish all that He ordains. God causes human beings to conform to His will. It is written throughout the OT and NT that God changes the hearts and minds of men to accomplish His will. If God intervenes, then mankind does not have free will at that point. Who hardened the heart of Pharaoh?

I snuck back in real quickly!

Your remark here seems almost like a contradiction.

Even if God is changing the hearts of people to accomplish His Will, is He not using people to accomplish His Will?

It is the people who are carrying out His Divine Will!

So in that sense, He needs us to do this. No people…no one to die for. No people…no one to pass on the message of salvation!

I am not saying God NEEDS us as in He is lonely…but now that He gave us life…we are His instruments of carrying on the Gospel of His Saving Work!

Simply put, our works and God’s works are not mutually exclusive.

We just require God’s works to be able to do our works.
(So also a sinner needs God’s grace to keep on sinning.)

Hmm…it may not be foreseeable, but this thread is starting to tie in with the “Free Will in the light of Scripture” thread.

Thanks be to God for what He is preparing!

 

[Reformed]

So I take it you ask Mary as well as others to intercede on your behalf. In other words you pray the Hail Mary, .’…Mother of God pray for us sinners …’

That is the chant that I heard on the Catholic radio station in Oregon. It went like "Hail Mary…Mother of God pray for us sinners… (before we die or something like that).

To answer your questions, Protestants don’t ask Mary and the Catholic Saints to intercede on our behalf. It’s a Catholic practice.

 

[BlestOne]

I think you are trying to say that your devotion to Mary cannot be supported in the Holy Scirptures.

And that is the key of our differences. This is also the major issue and driving force of the Protestant Reformation. And, this is the reason why Protestants and Roman Catholics cannot ever unite on this side of glory. LDS Christians, and Jehovah Witnesses don’t just use the Bible too, they all use their extra-biblical revelation, and their own churches teachings too over the Scriptures. The Holy Scripture has to remain the final authority from God because all forms of magisterium is made up of fallible men. And we know all Christians are not perfected in this life. Holy Scripture is God-breathed and not Sacred oral and written tradition.

Nope, that wasn’t what I was saying and if you looked at the links I provided, you would have known that. They gave scripture references and explanations. What I said was that we are not limited to sola scriptura and even in the Bible it says that it isn’t the only source, but you just seem to ignore that. Do you really think that Jesus came to give us a rule book? NO… He came to establish a Church… if he had just come to give us a book, why bother showing up? He could have sent Gabriel to deliver it like the Koran…but he didn’t, he came here and chose 12 followers and taught them then he sent them forth to all the ends of the earth, all without a book…in fact if it weren’t for the Catholics, there would be no Bible since we compiled it.