Hail Mary

[adstrinity]

So you believe it was not a sexual act?

If not a sexual act then it would have no marriage ramifications. Correct?

Incorrect. She gave Her life to God. She was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. She was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, that’s why She has God as Her son and had no sex EVER.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It seems to me that those like JA want to have God (and of course Mary) on their own terms.

Those like JA want a God in their image and likeness. . .absolutely ‘literal’ when they have determined something is literal, absolutely ‘figurative’ when they have determined something is figurative, a sort of jello figurehead who pretty much allows any and all interpretations of Scripture except Catholic ones provided the interpreter can give the correct ‘password’ phrases --like “Born Again”, “Bible believing”, “OSAS”, “real Christian”, and the most well known ‘cherry picked’ Scriptural quotes. Heck if he says he’s a “John 3:16” kind of guy, they’ll accept any individualist, crackpot ‘interpretation’ from a guy who, since he has given the DEFINITIVE (to them) sign that he accepts all that THEY have decided Christianity/God is, is obviously ‘one of them’.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

It may sound logical but its not true. There is no Scripture to support that Mary is your mother. Jesus never taught that His mother was to be your mother.

Many things Jesus taught were not recorded in Scripture, doesn’t make them untrue. The truth that Mary is our Mother can be gleaned from Scripture by one with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Where in the gospels do we find these kinds of details on the life of Mary? Take verse 16 above. Where is this incident mentioned in her life that is recorded in the gospels?

You don’t consider Revelation Scripture? It has to be in the Gospels or it isn’t acceptable??

 

[hays1122]

I read in the Catechism about the first commandment,pages 505-517.
I think it’s interesting that the catechism makes it clear,“It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God.”
If we go by these words in the Catechism then the protestant church and the Catholic church agree.
In the Catechism of the Catholic church:
"2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13 "
There’s a lot more but these two really make the point that God is the only one to be worshiped or venerated.
Please help me understand. Tell me how does the Pope or priest explain the difference between venerating or honoring Mary the way you do and what the Catechism says?
Thank you for allowing me to ask and learn.

 

[guanophore]

Where do the Scriptures say Mary is your mother?

She is the mother of all who obey her Divine Son’s commandments.

Rev 12:13-17

So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

It may sound logical but its not true. There is no Scripture to support that Mary is your mother. Jesus never taught that His mother was to be your mother.

Rev 12:16-17
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Don’t take it so personal, ja4. If you don’t want to be one of the children that keep the commandments of God, or hold the testimony of Jesus, you don’t have to!

Becoming part of the family of God is a privilege afforded to us by Jesus. If you wish to spurn the gift, that is your perogative, but why try to take it away from those who receive it with joy?

Mark 10:28-31
" Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life.”

Where in the gospels do we find these s of details on the life of Mary? Take verse 16 above. Where is this incident mentioned in her life that is recorded in the gospels?

Nice try, ja4, but we do not require the truth of what historically happened by whether or not it is included in the gospels. Remember when Paul rebuked Peter for behaving hypocritically? We don’t find that “incident mentioned” in the gospels either, but we accept it as true, because we believe the whole Bible is the inspired-inerrant Word of God.

If you wish to confine your knowldege to the gospels, that is also your perogative, but we find instruction in the book of Revelation also, where it says that the “rest of her offspring”(she who bore the male child that saved the world) were those who followed Christ.

 

[guanophore]

So you believe it was not a sexual act?

If not a sexual act then it would have no marriage ramifications. Correct?

It was a spiritual act. You have a deficient understanding of marriage.

Do you think the wedding feast of the Lamb is going to be a sex orgy?

I think it might help if you review Paul’s writings about marriage,and how they are intended to reflect Christ’s relationship with the Church (which is spiritual). This will help you understand how Mary is the Spouse of the HS.

 

[guanophore]

I read in the Catechism about the first commandment,pages 505-517.
I think it’s interesting that the catechism makes it clear,“It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God.”
If we go by these words in the Catechism then the protestant church and the Catholic church agree.
In the Catechism of the Catholic church:
"2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13 "
There’s a lot more but these two really make the point that God is the only one to be worshiped or venerated.
Please help me understand. Tell me how does the Pope or priest explain the difference between venerating or honoring Mary the way you do and what the Catechism says?
Thank you for allowing me to ask and learn.

Mary is not a diety, she is a creature. We honor her because God raised her up. She is a role model for us.

 

[hays1122]

Mary is not a diety, she is a creature. We honor her because God raised her up. She is a role model for us.

We all know that Mary is not deity. What I am trying to understand is how does your priest explain the difference between the adoration payed to Mary and the adoration payed to Jesus Christ our Lord. You say her name many times more then Jesus’s name during the Rosary.

To worship God means you show reverence,adoration,express love and pray to God.
Adoration is showing fervent and devoted love.
Catholics have given honor and adoration to Mary for years.
Father Caropi once said that you honor the one that occupies your mind the most. How can you honor our Lord Jesus Christ when you refer to Mary at any time you mention Jesus.
I just still don’t get it. How can you say you don’t worship Mary when she occupies so much of your worship and prayer time?
And I want you to know that I ask this so I can understand the catholic religion. I am so close to deciding to attend classes and I would become a catholic if someone would finally explain this to me. In a way that makes sense of course. I’ve heard the"we don’t worship Mary" explanation. I would believe you didn’t worship Mary if I heard the name of Jesus our Lord many more times then I hear the name Mary.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

You say her name many times more then Jesus’s name during the Rosary.

Surely you know the reason for this if you are trying to understand Catholicism.

If not, or for someone who may not understand, the Rosary is not the mindless recitation of Hail Marys. Even in the Hail Mary prayer, Hail Mary is a vehicle! It is not the end.

For each decade of the Rosary we meditate on the mysteries of the Gospel. I, and many others, do this by either focusing on visual images of the Gospel scence called upon by each decade or by reading Scripture after each Hail Mary. (I prefer the Scripture).

So, the Hail Mary engages one aspect of our mind while the spirit focuses intently on the Gospels. This is why it is meditative. We are directing our minds to fully engage scripture and pivotal theological aspects of Christianity.

And of course, the prayer itself comes from Scripture. By reciting the angel’s salutation, we imitate the state of grace the angel was hailing in Mary. We are imitating her obedience to God and her union with Christ in saying these words.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

… and you know, if you want to make the argument that saying Hail Mary worships Mary then you are accusing the angel who bowed to her and acknowleded her as the first member of the body of Christ of idolatry.

Was the angel who greeted Mary worshipping her?

 

[peary]

One of the most shocking things i find on these forums is that i don’t see catholics shocked by the things that are said about Mary and i think that part of the problem is that catholics don’t know the Scriptures that well and are unable to test the doctrines and practices of the church with the Scriptures. Instead catholics rely primarily and only on what the church says.

It’s Christ’s Church. He founded it. He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail over it. He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it and protect it so that it can proclaim the Truth. This is all biblical. We believe it. We are not shocked by the things said about Mary by others because, at least for me, I consider them ignorant statements by unbelievers, even though they may profess Christ as their Lord and Savior.

What do you do when you come across a fellow catholic who does not understand catholic doctrine correctly?

You correct him or her. That would be the charitable thing to do.

I am amazed you can say this. i have been accused countless times by my “friends” for asking to many questions. Even in our discussions i have asked quite a number of questions.

You keep asking the same questions over and over again. It gets boring and annoying after awhile because you are given the corfrect answers and choose to ignore them.

I do know the Scriptures well and am continuing to study catholic doctrines and practices. I wish more catholics and even protestants knew the Scriptures better. Ignorance of the Scriptures in Protestant churches is a major problem.

Scripture interpreted outside of the Church that produced them is false.

 

[Good_Fella]

uhh…what?

hmm…let me try to get this out another way…I guess what I meant was if you change the Col 1 verses to **without-Jesus **in the following way:
“**For without Him nothing would be created **that is in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible…nothing was created without Him…”
sort of like the John 1:3
“All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made”

What I wanted to emphasize was the second person of the Trinity’s creator functionings. Mary is a created thing (blessed, yet created) and therefore under His creator-ship.

In the beginning was the Word;
and the Word was with God;
and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh
and dwelt among us.
John 1, 1,14

But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son made of a woman,
made under the law.
Galatians 4, 4

All things were created by Him, and that includes human free will which our Lord respects and will never abuse, for He wants his creatures to sincerely love him in genuine faith. Because Mary loved God and had perfect faith in his will, she freely declared, “Let it be done to me according to your word.” The Word was with God and is God from all eternity, but the Word became flesh, was made of a woman, at the Incarnation upon Mary’s humble ‘Fiat’ (Lk 1: 35; Jn 1: 14; Gal 4:4).You’re mistaken if you think Mary had no choice but to conceive and bear the Son of God. Keep in mind that we have been created in God’s image. We are not God’s puppets or slaves. We are servants at most who can decide to be either faithful or unfaithful to God. And God is glorified when his creatures hear his call and freely choose to receive his word because of their personal love of God and complete faith in him. To receive his Spirit, we must first open our hearts to Him. Our salvation ultimately depends on our free response to God’s will. In order to be saved we must first of all be willing to be, now that Jesus has opened the gates of heaven by his Precious Blood.

"Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, stands before us as an exemplar of faithful obedience, and her ‘Be it to me according to your word’ is a grace-filled response each of us is called to make to God, both personally and communally, as the Church, the body of Christ. It is as figure of the Church, her arms uplifted in prayer and praise, her hands open in receptivity and availability to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, that we are one with Mary as she magnifies the Lord. ‘Surely,’ Mary declares in her song recorded in the Gospel of Luke, ‘from this day all generations will call me blessed.’ "
*Preface by Alexander J. Brunnet & Peter F. Carnley
Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC)
Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity *

We know that in all things God works for good ‘with’ those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose.
Romans 8, 28

PAX :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

We all know that Mary is not deity. What I am trying to understand is how does your priest explain the difference between the adoration payed to Mary and the adoration payed to Jesus Christ our Lord. You say her name many times more then Jesus’s name during the Rosary.

I never asked a priest about this. It has always been clear to me that adoration belongs to God. To adore a creature would be a violation of the first commandment.

I think the confusion about this comes from the deficient understanding of worship. For those of Apostolic faiths, the supreme act of worship is the Divine Liturgy. If you ever attend this, you will find that Mary is there with us, but has no central role. The Rosary is a Marian devotion, and is not an act of worship.

To worship God means you show reverence,adoration,express love and pray to God.

We believe this happens in it’s purity in Eucharist.

Adoration is showing fervent and devoted love.

I don’t know where you are pulling your definitions, but I don’t think that the theological application of the word “adoration” should be used for Mary. We honor her, and we ask her intercession. Many of us do have fervent and devoted love for her, but it is what we would have for any beloved and holy family member.

Catholics have given honor and adoration to Mary for years.

Personally, I can’t speak for that, because, as I said, respect and admiration do not equal adoration in my understanding.

Father Caropi once said that you honor the one that occupies your mind the most. How can you honor our Lord Jesus Christ when you refer to Mary at any time you mention Jesus.

Because one does not replace the other. Just as the wise men fell down in worship to Jesus when Mary was present, so we consider her still present. He may no longer be sitting on her lap, but she is not separated from Him. We have no qualms about worshipping him when she is present. Is there something you would want to say to Him that she should not hear?

I just still don’t get it. How can you say you don’t worship Mary when she occupies so much of your worship and prayer time?

Mary does not occupy so much of my worship and prayer time. If you are referring to the Rosary, it is a devotion centered on looking at the gospel events through the eyes of Mary. It is not a form of worship, but more of a prayerful meditation and coming into the presence of God. I think this is hard to understand for people who dont’ understand Eucharist to be perfect worship.

And I want you to know that I ask this so I can understand the catholic religion. I am so close to deciding to attend classes and I would become a catholic if someone would finally explain this to me. In a way that makes sense of course. I’ve heard the"we don’t worship Mary" explanation. I would believe you didn’t worship Mary if I heard the name of Jesus our Lord many more times then I hear the name Mary.

I know this is a difficult point for many Protestants. I think you should go ahead and attend classes. If you to that, you may come to understand that Catholicism is Christ centered, not Mary centered. Have you attended Divine Liturgy? Do you find it “mary centered”? It may be that you are observing the pious devotions f Catholics, and are getting a skewed perception of the faith.

 

[Henning]

You’re mistaken if you think Mary had no choice but to conceive and bear the Son of God. Keep in mind that we have been created in God’s image. We are not God’s puppets or slaves. We are servants at most who can decide to be either faithful or unfaithful to God. .

PAX :tiphat:

I agree. Mary was not a puppet but had choice, and she chose well…if I might add.

 

[Good_Fella]

How does the HS overshadowing Mary in the conception of Jesus equate to being “Wedded to God”? If you look up the word “overshadow” in a Greek lexicon on this passage you will find nothing in its meaning about a marrige or being wedded.

Where in the NT do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing? Do they explicitedly confirm this anywhere in the NT?

Where do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing as “In God there are Three Persons (not three Gods), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each of the three Persons possess the one (numerical) divine essence; in God there are two internal divine processions (not one); the Divine Persons, not the divine nature, are the subject of the internal divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense); the Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by generation, and therefore is related to him as Son to a Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a single principle through a single spiration; the relations in God are really identical with the divine nature; the Three Divine Persons are in one another; all the ‘ad extra’ activities of God are common to all Three Persons?” Do they explicitly confirm this in the New Testament? Nope. :nope: The doctrine of the Trinity was defined as dogma by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 in response to the threat of Arianism, which sprang from the gates of hell (Mt 16:17-19). I believe all orthodox and heterodox Protestant denominations accept this dogma of the Catholic Church.

If the scriptures were as explicit as you’d like them to be, then the Church wouldn’t have been plagued with such Trinitarian hersesies as Arianism, Anomeanism, Macedonianism, Modalism, Sabellianism, and Tritheism. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the teaching authority of the universal Catholic Church, for the written word is often unclear and ambiguous. Moreover, Scripture must be read at times in a literal, spiritual, or allegorical (analogical/anagogical) sense. Sacred Scripture has four senses with which to be approached. You fail to grasp what God has implicitly revealed in the scriptures because your approach to the written word is in a strictly literal sense with respect to the greater ineffable mysteries of the Christian faith. Anyway, the Church has spontaneously perceived Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit by the prompting of the promised Paraclete (Jn 16:12-13) primarily through the medium of Sacred Tradition. Our doctrines do not originate from analyzing Scripture. Scripture is infallible because the Tradition from whence it comes is infallible by the operation of the Holy Spirit. Hence the Church’s traditional beliefs and apostolic teachings can never contravene the written word.

The spiritual and allegorical relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary as spouses lends dignity to her Divine Maternity. The espousal between them took place at the instant Mary was immaculately conceived by the divine sanctification of the Spirit in her mother’s womb. Their spiritual union was fully consummated, so to speak, at the instant Mary pronounced her ‘Fiat’ whereupon she conceived and bore the Son of God. The Holy Spirit acted as the active-separate principle in union with Mary as the conjoined-passive principle in the generation of the Word made flesh. Metaphysically speaking, the Holy Spirit and Mary interacted with each other just as a normally wedded couple would - but in a mystical and supernatural way.

Mary was “overshadowed” by the Spirit as the ark of the Old Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit in the form of a cloud (shekinah). The ark of the Old Covenant carried the Word of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, contained the Word made flesh by the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Mary. In virtue of Mary’s Divine Maternity this union between the Holy Spirit and the mother of our Lord was for life with respect to Mary’s pilgrimage of faith and chosen unique spiritual vocation in intimate union with the Holy Spirit. The plentitude of grace Mary received in her Immaculate Conception and through her cooperation with the Spirit is incomparable with any of the graces we have received in our journey of faith as a bride of Christ. Mary’s intimate proximity with the Divine Source of all grace presents the two of them as in an inseparable union between two spouses who together formed a single holy offspring: the Word made flesh.

"There is one Physician who is possessed of both flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; ** both of Mary and of God ; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c.A.D. 110)

 

[hays1122]

I never asked a priest about this. It has always been clear to me that adoration belongs to God. To adore a creature would be a violation of the first commandment.

I think the confusion about this comes from the deficient understanding of worship. For those of Apostolic faiths, the supreme act of worship is the Divine Liturgy. If you ever attend this, you will find that Mary is there with us, but has no central role. The Rosary is a Marian devotion, and is not an act of worship.

We believe this happens in it’s purity in Eucharist.

I don’t know where you are pulling your definitions, but I don’t think that the theological application of the word “adoration” should be used for Mary. We honor her, and we ask her intercession. Many of us do have fervent and devoted love for her, but it is what we would have for any beloved and holy family member.

Personally, I can’t speak for that, because, as I said, respect and admiration do not equal adoration in my understanding.

Because one does not replace the other. Just as the wise men fell down in worship to Jesus when Mary was present, so we consider her still present. He may no longer be sitting on her lap, but she is not separated from Him. We have no qualms about worshipping him when she is present. Is there something you would want to say to Him that she should not hear?

Mary does not occupy so much of my worship and prayer time. If you are referring to the Rosary, it is a devotion centered on looking at the gospel events through the eyes of Mary. It is not a form of worship, but more of a prayerful meditation and coming into the presence of God. I think this is hard to understand for people who dont’ understand Eucharist to be perfect worship.

I know this is a difficult point for many Protestants. I think you should go ahead and attend classes. If you to that, you may come to understand that Catholicism is Christ centered, not Mary centered. Have you attended Divine Liturgy? Do you find it “mary centered”? It may be that you are observing the pious devotions f Catholics, and are getting a skewed perception of the faith.

Yes I have attended a Divine Liturgy or church service.
I did not feel it was Mary centered.
I have only attended a Catholic church service twice.
Once as a teenager. The family who took me knew I was
protestant and still had me take communion. Maybe they
wanted to “make me a catholic”.
The second time I attended a funeral at a catholic church. They also had everyone take the bread,but did not offer wine. One lady I told about this said that I really shouldn’t have been able to take part in the communion.
So who knows. Maybe the person who planned the funeral just wanted everyone to be saved. I have no idea. I knew the people there and most knew I am not catholic.
The priest held up the host and told me “this is the body of Christ” and I nodded my head and opened my mouth for him to place it on my tongue. I don’t feel I broke any rules because I know in my heart what communion is about. I prayed and asked the Lord to cleanse me and make me worthy of taking part in communion.
It was a beautiful service.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

Good Fella;4337053]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How does the HS overshadowing Mary in the conception of Jesus equate to being “Wedded to God”? If you look up the word “overshadow” in a Greek lexicon on this passage you will find nothing in its meaning about a marrige or being wedded.

Where in the NT do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing? Do they explicitedly confirm this anywhere in the NT?

Good Fella
Where do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing as “In God there are Three Persons (not three Gods), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each of the three Persons possess the one (numerical) divine essence; in God there are two internal divine processions (not one); the Divine Persons, not the divine nature, are the subject of the internal divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense); the Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by generation, and therefore is related to him as Son to a Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a single principle through a single spiration; the relations in God are really identical with the divine nature; the Three Divine Persons are in one another; all the ‘ad extra’ activities of God are common to all Three Persons?” Do they explicitly confirm this in the New Testament? Nope. :nope: The doctrine of the Trinity was defined as dogma by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 in response to the threat of Arianism, which sprang from the gates of hell (Mt 16:17-19). I believe all orthodox and heterodox Protestant denominations accept this dogma of the Catholic Church.
We can discuss the Trinty on another thread. The issue is Mary. Do the Scriptures teach what the Marian doctrines claim? That has yet to be established.

If the scriptures were as explicit as you’d like them to be, then the Church wouldn’t have been plagued with such Trinitarian hersesies as Arianism, Anomeanism, Macedonianism, Modalism, Sabellianism, and Tritheism. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the teaching authority of the universal Catholic Church, for the written word is often unclear and ambiguous. Moreover, Scripture must be read at times in a literal, spiritual, or allegorical (analogical/anagogical) sense. Sacred Scripture has four senses with which to be approached. You fail to grasp what God has implicitly revealed in the scriptures because your approach to the written word is in a strictly literal sense with respect to the greater ineffable mysteries of the Christian faith.

I take the Scriptures in the context in which the authors wrote. Each book or passage must be understood in light of the kind of writing it is. We must also take other factors into consideration such as what the words mean in context.

 

[justasking4]

Part 2

Good Fella;4337053]

Anyway, the Church has spontaneously perceived Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit by the prompting of the promised Paraclete (Jn 16:12-13) primarily through the medium of Sacred Tradition.

What specific Sacred Tradition claims that Mary is the Spouse of the HS?

Our doctrines do not originate from analyzing Scripture.

This is the great weakness in many Catholic doctrines. When compared with Scripture they are in many cases saying different things. Both cannot be true.

Scripture is infallible because the Tradition from whence it comes is infallible by the operation of the Holy Spirit. Hence the Church’s traditional beliefs and apostolic teachings can never contravene the written word.

This is not true. The Catholic church has taught many things that contravene the Scriptures. Mary’s supposed sinlessness is just one doctrine.

The spiritual and allegorical relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary as spouses lends dignity to her Divine Maternity. The espousal between them took place at the instant Mary was immaculately conceived by the divine sanctification of the Spirit in her mother’s womb

.
There is no proof that Mary was immaculately conceived. Those that knew here in the NT never ever mention such a thing about her.

Their spiritual union was fully consummated, so to speak, at the instant Mary pronounced her ‘Fiat’ whereupon she conceived and bore the Son of God. The Holy Spirit acted as the active-separate principle in union with Mary as the conjoined-passive principle in the generation of the Word made flesh. Metaphysically speaking, the Holy Spirit and Mary interacted with each other just as a normally wedded couple would - but in a mystical and supernatural way.

Is this offical Catholic teaching? Is it found in the catechism?

Mary was “overshadowed” by the Spirit as the ark of the Old Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit in the form of a cloud (shekinah). The ark of the Old Covenant carried the Word of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, contained the Word made flesh by the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Mary.

What apostle states this explicitedly about her?

In virtue of Mary’s Divine Maternity this union between the Holy Spirit and the mother of our Lord was for life with respect to Mary’s pilgrimage of faith and chosen unique spiritual vocation in intimate union with the Holy Spirit. The plentitude of grace Mary received in her Immaculate Conception and through her cooperation with the Spirit is incomparable with any of the graces we have received in our journey of faith as a bride of Christ. Mary’s intimate proximity with the Divine Source of all grace presents the two of them as in an inseparable union between two spouses who together formed a single holy offspring: the Word made flesh.

The problem here again is that there is no proof for these statements. It sounds great and convincing but upon closer examination in light of the Scriptures its not found.

"There is one Physician who is possessed of both flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; ** both of Mary and of God ; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c.A.D. 110)

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Justasking4, you obviously have a serious problem with pride. Some Catholics have given you excellent, theologically correct positons and answers, and others have given you answers that are incorrect according to Catholic teaching.

The last post does this by saying “our doctrines do not originate from analyzing Scripture.” This is obviously untrue, and I have no doubt you know the correct position, but you have simply taken advantage of this person’s error and exploited the response into something to use for your arguments.

I am sure you know the correct answer is that church tradition which is not explicit in Scripture is implicit in Scripture. The sinlessness of Mary, though, is based on both explicit Scripture, (the angel’s salutation that indicated Mary was in a continuing state of grace) and the typology of the Ark of the Covenant and the New Eve. You know that, I’m sure.

As I pointed out above, if to pray, “Hail Mary” is worship, then you accuse the angel who saluted Mary this way and bowed to her of worship as well, rather than acknowledge it as veneration.

The problem is I am absolutely certain that you have been given theologically sound answers from the more theologically sound board members, and so you take advantage of this person you are quoting by arguing with an incorrect position you know to be incorrect. What is that except pride? That’s all it is. Nothing more. Just you exploiting someone’s ignorance to bolster the ego-boost you get from arguing with people and condescndingly assuming Catholics are more ignorant than you.