Hail Mary

[hays1122]

I am reading a book “The Love of Mary” by D.Roberto,Hermit of Monte Corona.
This book is 220 pages telling about how Mary is all powerful. She has control over Jesus. She can save sinners and protect them from God’s wrath.
It says the devil is terrified of Mary.
It’s amazing how according to this book Mary is God.
The author doesn’t come out and say “Mary is God.” But things like,“Mary saw,knew and loved us even before we were born.”
“In heaven God loves to obey the desires of his mother. All his graces are in her hands. She freely bestows them on us.”
This book teaches us that
whether we deserve it or not we have a most powerful merciful mother in heaven a mother who will not rest until she has escorted us before the throne of God and obtained our salvation for all eternity.
“No one receives a gift of God but through Mary.”
I do hope someone will find this book and read it,then tell me that the Catholic church does not feel that way about Mary.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I am reading a book “The Love of Mary” by D.Roberto,Hermit of Monte Corona.
This book is 220 pages telling about how Mary is all powerful. She has control over Jesus. She can save sinners and protect them from God’s wrath.

Is that what it really says? I mean, if it does, then it is heretical. But if it says that by cooperating in the Incarnation of Christ, Mary has a special role as advocate for us and intercedes before Her Son for our salvation in heaven, then that’s a different matter entirely.

**It says the devil is terrified of Mary. **

The devil is terrified of all of the saints and their intercession before God in heaven, but especially of the woman whose seed crushed his head.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Where do we find on the lips of Jesus or in the writings of the apostles such a thing as “In God there are Three Persons (not three Gods), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each of the three Persons possess the one (numerical) divine essence; in God there are two internal divine processions (not one); the Divine Persons, not the divine nature, are the subject of the internal divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense); the Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by generation, and therefore is related to him as Son to a Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a single principle through a single spiration; the relations in God are really identical with the divine nature; the Three Divine Persons are in one another; all the ‘ad extra’ activities of God are common to all Three Persons?” Do they explicitly confirm this in the New Testament? Nope. :nope: The doctrine of the Trinity was defined as dogma by the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 in response to the threat of Arianism, which sprang from the gates of hell (Mt 16:17-19). I believe all orthodox and heterodox Protestant denominations accept this dogma of the Catholic Church.

If the scriptures were as explicit as you’d like them to be, then the Church wouldn’t have been plagued with such Trinitarian hersesies as Arianism, Anomeanism, Macedonianism, Modalism, Sabellianism, and Tritheism. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the teaching authority of the universal Catholic Church, for the written word is often unclear and ambiguous.

That invites the question why, if it is so useless, God gave it.​

Moreover, Scripture must be read at times in a literal, spiritual, or allegorical (analogical/anagogical) sense.

The allegorical sense does not include the anagogical.​

Sacred Scripture has four senses with which to be approached.

Only if one treats the Middle Ages, when that division was made, as the last word in Biblical scholarship​

You fail to grasp what God has implicitly revealed in the scriptures because your approach to the written word is in a strictly literal sense with respect to the greater ineffable mysteries of the Christian faith. Anyway, the Church has spontaneously perceived Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit by the prompting of the promised Paraclete (Jn 16:12-13) primarily through the medium of Sacred Tradition. Our doctrines do not originate from analyzing Scripture.

In practice this means, “Stuff the Bible - we’re Catholics - who needs that old rubbish ?” The real Catholic Bible is the Word of the Popes.​

…

The spiritual and allegorical relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary as spouses lends dignity to her Divine Maternity. The espousal between them took place at the instant Mary was immaculately conceived by the divine sanctification of the Spirit in her mother’s womb. Their spiritual union was fully consummated, so to speak, at the instant Mary pronounced her ‘Fiat’ whereupon she conceived and bore the Son of God. The Holy Spirit acted as the active-separate principle in union with Mary as the conjoined-passive principle in the generation of the Word made flesh. Metaphysically speaking, the Holy Spirit and Mary interacted with each other just as a normally wedded couple would - but in a mystical and supernatural way.

That sounds like copulation with God - it makes the BVM into…well, I would rather not say, on a family medium like this.​

…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“Just as a normally wedded couple” is precisely how the Holy Spirit & and the BVM did not act. Why would she be betrothed to St.Joseph, if God was going to go the whole nine yards with her ? It makes God sound like a seducer. It’s pornographic. It degrades the Christian doctrine of God. The Fathers would all of them have put out both eyes & cut off both hands than utter such horrible impieties.

Mary was “overshadowed” by the Spirit as the ark of the Old Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit in the form of a cloud (shekinah). The ark of the Old Covenant carried the Word of God, the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, contained the Word made flesh by the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Mary.

It is far from certain that she, rather Christ, is the Ark of the Covenant. Just as it is certain that she is not the woman in Revelation 12.​

In virtue of Mary’s Divine Maternity this union between the Holy Spirit and the mother of our Lord was for life with respect to Mary’s pilgrimage of faith and chosen unique spiritual vocation in intimate union with the Holy Spirit. The plentitude of grace Mary

The word is plenitude - whoever wrote plentitude quite clearly never studied Latin.​

received in her Immaculate Conception and through her cooperation with the Spirit is incomparable with any of the graces we have received in our journey of faith as a bride of Christ.

Not “incomparable”, just greater. If there is no comparison, then she is not only travelling first class while the rest of us are in steerage - she’s not even on the same boat. If we have nothing comparable to what she has, that in effect means she belongs to a human race of her own, where she won’t be offended by the stink of ordinary humans. By making her too perfect, the CC makes her inhuman, almost an incarnate angel, except that that is not exalted enough. But an inhuman BVM who is “horribly good” has nothing in common with us. ​

Mary’s intimate proximity with the Divine Source of all grace presents the two of them as in an inseparable union between two spouses who together formed a single holy offspring: the Word made flesh.

This makes St.Joseph a cuckold, & Mary a w—e Aquinas could not, & did not, write such claptrap - this completely perverts the CC’s teaching. As for quoting St. Ignatius, this makes him utter impieties.​

*"There is one Physician who is possessed of both flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; *both of Mary and of God ; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c.A.D. 110)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is that what it really says? I mean, if it does, then it is heretical. But if it says that by cooperating in the Incarnation of Christ, Mary has a special role as advocate for us and intercedes before Her Son for our salvation in heaven, then that’s a different matter entirely.

Not if you read the old version of the Lourdes Hymn - what the OP refers to was all too widespread once, until Vatican II did something to knock some of the really bad stuff on the head.​

As for her “omnipotence” - books about her used speak of her “suppliant omnipotence”. V. bad idea.

 

[petite_foireuse]

Maybe Jesus was telling the Apostle John to take care of Mary in this life?

As a side note: If Jesus had had other “blood” brothers, younger than him, the alleged sons of Mary after she bore Jesus, why would He have asked John to take care of his mother? Wouldn’t it have been more common for his brothers to take up the care of their mother?

We keep on straying in this thread, but that’s because it’s difficult to discuss one Truth the Church teaches without the others. The Catholic Faith only makes sense as a whole.

 

[petite_foireuse]

Where in the Holy Scriptures does it state or imply that Mary intercedes on the behalf of sinners, whether we ask her to or not?

Well, there is at least the wedding at Cana, where she is the one to bring the host’s problem to Jesus’ attention.

Mary “passes on” our feeble prayers, like a “loudspeaker” to Jesus, and then passes on his Graces to us, like when she says “Do whatever He tells you to do”.

 

[guanophore]

I am reading a book “The Love of Mary” by D.Roberto,Hermit of Monte Corona.I do hope someone will find this book and read it,then tell me that the Catholic church does not feel that way about Mary.

No thanks I will pass. I am not into that radical stuff. Why don’t you read something more edifying? How about the Pope’s new book on Jesus?

 

[guanophore]

That invites the question why, if it is so useless, God gave it.​

Good Fella said that scripture should be interpreted in the light of Sacred Tradition. How did you get “useless” out of that?

Only if one treats the Middle Ages, when that division was made, as the last word in biblical scholarship​

Could we not agree that there are at least four?

In practice this means, “Stuff the Bible - we’re Catholics - who needs that old rubbish ?” The real Catholic Bible is the Word of the Popes.​

No, this is coming out of some dark bigoted place inside of you, not from the Catholic Church.

That sounds like copulation with God - it makes the BVM into…well, I would rather not say, on a family medium like this. …​

I really think that people will have a hard time understanding the “spouse of the HS” perspective who have not studied Judaism, and God’s relationship with His Chosen People. This also needs to be supplemented with Paul’s teaching on the mystical body of Christ. It is about marriage, but sprititual, not physical.

It is far from certain that she, rather Christ, is the Ark of the Covenant.

Do you remember what was kept in the Ark?

Just as it is certain that she is not the woman in Revelation 12.

Who do you think gave birth to the Divine Son?

then she is not only travelling first class while the rest of us are in steerage - she’s not even on the same boat. If we have nothing comparable to what she has, that in effect means she belongs to a human race of her own, where she won’t be offended by the stink of ordinary humans. By making her too perfect, the CC makes her inhuman, almost an incarnate angel,

No, she has already received what we are destined to inherit, the fullness of what God created humans to be.

except that that is not exalted enough. But an inhuman BVM who is “horribly good” has nothing in common with us.

Do you really feel that disconnected from her?

This makes St.Joseph a cuckold, & Mary a w---e :mad: Aquinas could not, & did not, write such claptrap - this completely perverts the CC's teaching. As for quoting St. Ignatius, this makes him utter impieties.

Have you ever studied the feasts commemorating St. Joseph? I don’ t see how you can say this, unless you are really unaware…

 

[petite_foireuse]

If I should decide to become a Catholic but refuse to say the hail Mary or pray to saints,will I still be allowed to become a Catholic?
I believe in how the Catholic church worships the Lord.
I don’t mind the idea of confession to a priest.
I agree with taking communion every Sunday.
I don’t see anything wrong with the Pope as leader.
I actually feel very comfortable with making the sign of the cross.
I understand and appreciate all the icons and pretty pictures in the sanctuaries.
I now understand why babies are baptized and it makes good sense.
But I still don’t feel in my heart that I should ask Mary to “forgive us our sins now and at the hour of our death”.
Saying the rosary is nice but I’d want to cut out a lot of what is directed strictly toward Mary.
I do appreciate the stories told about the apparitions of Mary.
I can see why people want to give her honor.
So would I be allowed to be a Catholic?

If you’re already that far, because you accept the Church’s teaching on all of these questions, I wouldn’t worry about not praying to Mary. Faith is not “what we feel in our hearts”, but what we know is true because the Church teaches it. When I came into the Church 12 years ago, I still felt uncomfortable with praying to Mary, but I figured if the Church got it right on so many other points, it wouldn’t deceive me on this last one. I just accepted that praying to Mary was ok, but I didn’t pray to her myself. Eventually, I came around, not by reasoning, but because my heart found it’s way to my heavenly Mother. It’s still more natural for me to think I am talking to Jesus when I pray/meditate in the quiet of my room, but I’ll go to Mary when I really need an urgent boost to overcome some temptation. My point is, don’t focus on the problem points, focus on all the good ones. Isn’t it beautiful how the Church got so much of it right? It still overwhelms me when “all of a sudden” I understand some teaching better or from another viewpoint - those moments are gifts of the Holy Ghost, and I am deeply thankful for them. You can trust the Church (which we also call our Mother BTW). As long as you can accept that praying to Mary and the saints is ok, I think you could become a Catholic.

 

[petite_foireuse]

Mary confessed she was a sinner (Luke 1).

Can you give us the exact verse? I couldn’t find it in Luke on bible.com, as you suggested. Of course she is a creature, and thereby worshiped God herself (e.g. in the Magnificat). But where does she admit being a sinner? Our Lord also died for her on the cross, but the effect of Grace preserved her from ever sinning. It’s still Our Lord’s doing, though. And Mary is aware of what He did for her, so she praises His mercy.

On the other hand, she adds “Henceforward all generations will call me blessed”, which most Protestants refuse to do because they are afraid of getting worship and veneration/honor mixed up.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Can you give us the exact verse? I couldn’t find it in Luke on bible.com, as you suggested. Of course she is a creature, and thereby worshiped God herself (e.g. in the Magnificat). But where does she admit being a sinner? Our Lord also died for her on the cross, but the effect of Grace preserved her from ever sinning. It’s still Our Lord’s doing, though. And Mary is aware of what He did for her, so she praises His mercy.

On the other hand, she adds “Henceforward all generations will call me blessed”, which most Protestants refuse to do because they are afraid of getting worship and veneration/honor mixed up.

Mary NEVER confessed she is a sinner. There is no Scripture. In the Magnificant she rejoices in her Savior.

If you do not understand the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception than you will make the error that Reformed makes.

Mary was the first person saved, by a singular grace, at her conception according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. She was saved, but was filled with grace at the time she is greeted by Gabriel.

 

[petite_foireuse]

If you do not understand the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception than you will make the error that Reformed makes.

I know and I understand that doctrine. This was a question to Reformed, asking him to have second look at Luke:1, and trying to point out to him that there is no verse in which Mary “confessed she was a sinner”, as he previously wrote.

 

[petite_foireuse]

You say Catholics don’t worship Mary. What are the characteristics of worship?

Does it help to know that sometimes even Catholics have a problem with other people’s way of venerating Mary? It’s a cultural thing, in part. People from Latin America or Southern Europe are more emphatic in their ways, talk, etc. in general. What counts is that they know the difference between venerating and worshiping, not what it looks like to us outsiders.

As long as you accept that Mary is to be venerated (not worshiped), you accept as true the various dogmas relating to her, and attend Mass in her honor on feast days of obligation like (dependent on the country you live in) Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, you are perfectly ok as a Catholic. Nobody asks you to be emphatic yourself in your worship. I personally do not feel comfortable with St. Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort’s terms when he speaks of being Mary’s “slaves”. So what? Nobody is going to make me consecrate myself to her in those terms. There are many types of devotion within the Church, and there’s a place for everyone.

BTW, the highest form of Catholic worship, Holy Mass, only mentions Mary once among a list of other saints who intercede for us before God’s throne (apart from the few special prayers on feast days related to Mary). The whole Mass is oriented towards God, of course.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I know and I understand that doctrine. This was a question to Reformed, asking him to have second look at Luke:1, and trying to point out to him that there is no verse in which Mary “confessed she was a sinner”, as he previously wrote.

My mistake. The question then goes back to Reformed.

 

[justasking4]

I am reading a book “The Love of Mary” by D.Roberto,Hermit of Monte Corona.
This book is 220 pages telling about how Mary is all powerful. She has control over Jesus. She can save sinners and protect them from God’s wrath.
It says the devil is terrified of Mary.
It’s amazing how according to this book Mary is God.
The author doesn’t come out and say “Mary is God.” But things like,“Mary saw,knew and loved us even before we were born.”
“In heaven God loves to obey the desires of his mother. All his graces are in her hands. She freely bestows them on us.”
This book teaches us that
whether we deserve it or not we have a most powerful merciful mother in heaven a mother who will not rest until she has escorted us before the throne of God and obtained our salvation for all eternity.
“No one receives a gift of God but through Mary.”
I do hope someone will find this book and read it,then tell me that the Catholic church does not feel that way about Mary.

Do you know if this book has the approval of the Catholic church? I would think you may find this in the beginning before the table of contents.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Unlike the Protestant Church, which is fractured, splintered, and has no central depository of theology, the Catholic Church has official teaching.

Instead of guessing whether or not this book and its contents are or are not heretical, you can simply look at the Catholic Church’s teachings about Mary in the Catechism.

This very obvious fact has escaped Justasking4, who has not demonstrated the ability to understand the Catholic Church, and incessantly attacks, caricatures, and mis-characterizes.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Angels Unaware:

Unlike the Protestant Church, which is fractured, splintered, and has no central depository of theology, the Catholic Church has official teaching.

Instead of guessing whether or not this book and its contents are or are not heretical, you can simply look at the Catholic Church’s teachings about Mary in the Catechism.

This very obvious fact has escaped Justasking4, who has not demonstrated the ability to understand the Catholic Church, and incessantly attacks, caricatures, and mis-characterizes.

For example, here is the Catechism’s answer to the question of praying Hail Mary.

None of the anti-Catholic replies here have given the impression that they have even read the below information from the Catechism.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:**

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel’s greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. “Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst.” Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is “the dwelling of God . . . with men.” Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel’s greeting, we make Elizabeth’s greeting our own. “Filled with the Holy Spirit,” Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary “blessed.” "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is “blessed among women” because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord’s word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God’s own blessing: Jesus, the “fruit of thy womb.”

 

[Good_Fella]

That invites the question why, if it is so useless, God gave it.​

The allegorical sense does not include the anagogical.​

Only if one treats the Middle Ages, when that division was made, as the last word in Biblical scholarship​

In practice this means, “Stuff the Bible - we’re Catholics - who needs that old rubbish ?” The real Catholic Bible is the Word of the Popes.​

That sounds like copulation with God - it makes the BVM into…well, I would rather not say, on a family medium like this. …​

The Scriptures were not “given” to private individuals for their perusal of the texts.

The allegorical and anagogical senses fall under the spiritual sense. The analogical sense falls under the literal sense. If one reads the narrative of the Annunciation through the analogical sense, then he may arrive at an understanding of the idea of Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. The allegorical or typical sense refers to things of the Old Covenant signifying things of the New Covenant. With regard to Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, we find a prefigurement in the Song of Songs which enables the Church - not so-called private interpreters of Scripture - to articulate her perception of the significance of this Marian invocation. The anagogical sense involves mystical interpretations of the texts pertaining to all visions of heaven and our eternal destiny. I’m aware that the allegorical and anagogical senses are not identical, but they both fall under the spiritual sense. Unfortunately Protestants tend to read the scriptures in a literal sense while being somewhat numb to the analogical sense. Moreover, they have little, if any, plenary sense, which also falls under the literal sense: Protestants like yourself and JA4 fail to grasp that God may imply more in the words of Scripture that the human author is conscious of. Scripture does teach us that no prophet is the interpreter of his own prophesy (Isa 7:14). Thus Protestants tend to use their favourite catch word “context” by focussing excessively on what primarily and explicitly lies on the surface of the written text in their disagreements with Catholic interpretations. But one cannot see the fullness of divine revelation granted to the Church by privately interpreting the scriptures from a rigid literal sense in discordance with Apostolic Tradition.

The Middle Ages? Are you kidding? Read what the Church Fathers have written about Mary over 8 centuries and you’ll see how they approached the scriptures in a literal-analogical-plenary and spiritual-allegorical-anagogical (mystical) sense. I suggest you read Luigi Gambero’s ‘Mary and the Fathers of the Church.’

The Bible as it must be understood is Catholic, unless you don’t believe that Jesus is the “Divine Messiah” and that there are Three Divine Persons in the Trinity.

It sounds like “copulation with God” to you because you lack spiritual insight when reading the Annunciation narrative.

I’ve gotta go. So I’ll continue with the rest tomorrow. You do the Church Fathers and Aquinas a great injustice.

 

[justasking4]

petite_foireuse;4343079]
Originally Posted by Reformed
Mary confessed she was a sinner (Luke 1).
petite_foireuse
Can you give us the exact verse? I couldn’t find it in Luke on bible.com, as you suggested. Of course she is a creature, and thereby worshiped God herself (e.g. in the Magnificat). But where does she admit being a sinner?

Luke 1:47 she admits that God is her Savior which means she understands she is a sinner. That’s what the Savior does i.e. saves us from sin.

Our Lord also died for her on the cross, but the effect of Grace preserved her from ever sinning.

There is no proof for this.

It’s still Our Lord’s doing, though. And Mary is aware of what He did for her, so she praises His mercy.

On the other hand, she adds “Henceforward all generations will call me blessed”, which most Protestants refuse to do because they are afraid of getting worship and veneration/honor mixed up.