Hail Mary

[guanophore]

Very interesting how you selectively read and selectively respond to the information that is given to you. Speaks to your general lack of forthrightness and integrity in examining these issues. An intellectually honest person would address all of the arguments, and have differing levels of agreement or disagreement with each one. You just ignore arguments that challenge your pre-conceived notions and arrogance.

To answer your first question, an Archbishop does not speak for Rome. However, you were already told to read the Catechism and determine whether official Church teaching was contradicted or not by the actual words in the book- which apparently you have never read, so you are setting up a straw man in even addressing the book. You don’t know exactly what it is teaching. (You don’t look closely enough at any teaching to really address it and argue with it- too brainwashed to understand before launching an attack!)

Now, this is enough to really begin to irritate and frustrate me. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION? HOW UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT TO PARROT BACK FALSE ARGUMENTS. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID YOU MUST GO THROUGH MARY TO REACH GOD THE FATHER, AND THAT IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF INTERCESSION. INTERCESSION IS THE PRAYER AND PETITIONS OF SAINTS.

YOUR RIDICULOUS IDEAS (ABOUT CATHOLICISM) ARE WRONG

WHO said this??? NOT ME. If you were not so prejudiced, you would notice that I compared Mary’s example to YOU or the BIBLE leading a person to Christ.

And how profoundly arrogant for you to tell the Holy Spirit that HE may work through you or the Bible to lead someone to Christ, but He may not work through His Spouse!

Your distortions of the Rosary what you think Catholics know and understand in Mass are as frankly, STUPID and as IGNORANT as racism. You have been told OVER and OVER again that the Rosary is MEDITATES ON JESUS, through kinship with Mary, it does NOT CENTER ON MARY.

But you cannot comprehend. Your mind is seared with ignorance.

Ok, angels, take a deep breath, and say some prayers. You are feeding into her exactly what she wants. Her main goal is to frustrate and annoy faithful Catholics, and take pot shots at the faith. Although what you are saying is all true, the our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers of the world’s present darkness for whom ja4 is speaking into our midst.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfrancis
You can pray for/about them…
True. But if i tried to communicate directly to them via prayer they would not hear.

Pixie Dust
Seems to me you’re grasping at straws here. Being on the other side of the planet is not the same as being in Heaven.

No straws to grasp. What this example shows is that just because you assume something does not mean its true or possible. I can make myself believe i can pray directly to someone on the other side of the planet but that does not mean they can hear that prayer. This same principle applies with praying to Mary and the saints. In fact its even worse since you don’t know the nature of the next world in this regards.

 

[justasking4]

Ok, angels, take a deep breath, and say some prayers. You are feeding into her exactly what she wants. Her main goal is to frustrate and annoy faithful Catholics, and take pot shots at the faith. Although what you are saying is all true, the our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers of the world’s present darkness for whom ja4 is speaking into our midst.

I’m almost glad your back. I’ve been getting beaten up all day by all kinds of posters. I think they are learning from your example…:whackadoo:

 

[guanophore]

No straws to grasp. What this example shows is that just because you assume something does not mean its true or possible.

Well, I think we all agreed upon that before you posted the example.

What we don’t agree upon is your characterization of divine revelation. We believe it is from God, and you believe it is an “assumption.”

I can make myself believe i can pray directly to someone on the other side of the planet but that does not mean they can hear that prayer.

Surely not! In fact, the scriptures are clear that it is the prayer of faith only that saves, not the prayer of unbelief or “assumption”.

This same principle applies with praying to Mary and the saints.

I agree. I think it would be wrong for you to ask the intercession of Mary and the Saints, since you are faithless in this matter. Better to refrain, and remove all chance of sin.

In fact its even worse since you don’t know the nature of the next world in this regards.

Well, speak for yourself! We know what has been revealed to us by God’s Holy Bride, the Church.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

No straws to grasp. What this example shows is that just because you assume something does not mean its true or possible. I can make myself believe i can pray directly to someone on the other side of the planet but that does not mean they can hear that prayer. This same principle applies with praying to Mary and the saints. In fact its even worse since you don’t know the nature of the next world in this regards.

But I DO know - because Scripture tells me that those saints and angels in Heaven are aware of what’s going on, and they are praying for us! It’s right there in the Scriptures, plain as the nose on my face.

Oh, wait. You have no way of knowing if I have a nose on my face, since the Scriptures don’t mention it.

 

[justasking4]

Pixie Dust;4350611]But I DO know - because Scripture tells me that those saints and angels in Heaven are aware of what’s going on, and they are praying for us! It’s right there in the Scriptures, plain as the nose on my face.

On what basis do you know this? Hebrews 12:1 does not support the idea that “saints” can hear you here?

Oh, wait. You have no way of knowing if I have a nose on my face, since the Scriptures don’t mention it.

I have no reason to doubt since i believe you are a human being and human beings have noses unless of course there is some kind except medical condition that i don’t know about. Its based on what were familiar with. We have experiences with others that we deduce things from. We don’t have such experiences with those who have died.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

On what basis do you know this? Hebrews 12:1 does not support the idea that “saints” can hear you here?

I’m not basing it solely on Hebrews 12:1, but on the message of Scriptures, both OT and NT.

I have no reason to doubt since i believe you are a human being and human beings have noses unless of course there is some kind except medical condition that i don’t know about. Its based on what were familiar with. We have experiences with others that we deduce things from. We don’t have such experiences with those who have died.

Maybe you don’t, but that’s because you think they’re dead and not alive in Heaven with Christ.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Ok, angels, take a deep breath, and say some prayers. You are feeding into her exactly what she wants. Her main goal is to frustrate and annoy faithful Catholics, and take pot shots at the faith. Although what you are saying is all true, the our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers of the world’s present darkness for whom ja4 is speaking into our midst.

I know. It is just that when she says these things that are so wrong, and that can’t be supported by logic or truth, I think, “well, this Protestant just doesn’t understand, if she can be shown that we are not ignorant pagans worshipping a goddess, and that we have a real, firm basis for our beliefs in all of the Catholic dogmas, then she will at least understand what we perceive is the Protestant error.” But, instead, it’s as her heart and mind are closed and she will not see past her prejudices. She does not have to become Catholic, or even agree, but she cannot even engage us in reasonable discussions when she makes such absurd arguments.

All of her arguments proceed from her particular interpretation of Scripture, which obviously she has been taught by someone else, which is very ironic. She doesn’t even have a concept that different Christians, orthodox, protestant, catholic, different denominations, can have sincere disagreements in theology and scripture interpretation. She doesn’t have a point of, “well we can agree to disagree here”. It’s her way only and she’s “discussing” the matter with us underlings.

She is like a Protestant version of the Inquisition. Pretty fruitless to continue discussing anything.

If only she knew how the Blessed Mother led me to Jesus.

 

[hays1122]

Or, in other words, you can’t tell from Scripture whether or not it is possible to communicate with the Saints in heaven or not. Nothing except your prejudice here.

What part of Sacred Tradition contradicts the New Testament? The arguments that you are making for Sacred Tradition to be in opposition to the New Testament could also be made by a Jew about the gospels.

It all comes down to how you interpret things.

That is your fatal, prideful error.

Just today I over heard a speaker on Catholic radio mention that the Jews first believed in praying to saints. I was driving so I couldn’t take notes.
The Jews have been here way before the Catholics, so what do the Jewish people say about praying to saints?
If the Jews indeed prayed to the saints then I can understand why Catholics took on this tradition.
If anyone here is familiar with the Jewish tradition of praying to saints please tell me about it.
After all the Jewish people are God’s chosen ones. And they were the first to worship our Lord God almighty.

 

[Henning]

We don’t have such experiences with those who have died.

Jonathan Edwards (the guy who talks to dead people) does.
In my prayers, if I was praying to say saint Peter, how would I know if it was Peter or my next door neighbor’s great aunt Ethel who died say 20 years ago. How would I know if I hadn’t entered into a conversation with a dead/seemingly-alive person in the way that Jonathan Edwards communicates with dead people ?? What’s it called necromancy? How could I differentiate between talking to Ethel necromantically and legitimately talking with Peter. (maybe a new thread?) H

 

[justasking4]

Jonathan Edwards (the guy who talks to dead people) does.
In my prayers, if I was praying to say saint Peter, how would I know if it was Peter or my next door neighbor’s great aunt Ethel who died say 20 years ago. How would I know if I hadn’t entered into a conversation with a dead/seemingly-alive person in the way that Jonathan Edwards communicates with dead people ?? What’s it called necromancy? How could I differentiate between talking to Ethel necromantically and legitimately talking with Peter. (maybe a new thread?) H

Who is this Jonathan Edwards? Is he the guy on TV?

 

[justasking4]

Just today I over heard a speaker on Catholic radio mention that the Jews first believed in praying to saints. I was driving so I couldn’t take notes.
The Jews have been here way before the Catholics, so what do the Jewish people say about praying to saints?
If the Jews indeed prayed to the saints then I can understand why Catholics took on this tradition.
If anyone here is familiar with the Jewish tradition of praying to saints please tell me about it.
After all the Jewish people are God’s chosen ones. And they were the first to worship our Lord God almighty.

If the Jews did such things you won’t find it in the OT.

 

[hays1122]

Jonathan Edwards (the guy who talks to dead people) does.
In my prayers, if I was praying to say saint Peter, how would I know if it was Peter or my next door neighbor’s great aunt Ethel who died say 20 years ago. How would I know if I hadn’t entered into a conversation with a dead/seemingly-alive person in the way that Jonathan Edwards communicates with dead people ?? What’s it called necromancy? How could I differentiate between talking to Ethel necromantically and legitimately talking with Peter. (maybe a new thread?) H

Catholics don’t claim to “talk to dead people”. They pray to those who have gone on before. Praying is different from talking. Talking is a conversation. Praying is meditation and petitions.
Does that make sense?

 

[Henning]

Who is this Jonathan Edwards? Is he the guy on TV?

yea…he claims (??) he’s Catholic (or had Catholic upbringing)

 

[happilycatholic]

The OT is the foundation for the teachings of Christ. He came to fulfill them. The OT predicted Him.
What part of the OT contradicts His teachings? Can you give me an example?

Hebrews 10:9,10 - Hebrews gives a detailed comparison between the Old Testament (“first will”) and the New Testament (“second will”). It claims that God sent Jesus to “take away” the first and “establish” the second.

Maybe “contridict” isn’t a good choice of vocabulary.

The foundation of Christ’s teaching was not the OT. Yes, it foretold of His coming, but it is not the basis on which Christ taught. It was that He was sent to us by God as a way to get to God through forgiveness of sin. His teachings expounded, if you will, on the OT but was not the foundation of all that He came to us for. That had already been established by God through Moses. That was the foundation of Moses’ teachings. Christ’s foundation was to be Christianity, not the OT Law. I’m sorry, but if you think me incorrect then you really don’t have an understanding of the Scripture at all.

Take also the matter of animal sacrifice and unclean meats. This was all to be done away with after Christ’s resurrection. Yes, Christ, who was a good Jew, lived by the Law. Christ then made it very clear that the Law of Moses was to be replaced.

Unless of course you are SDA and confuse the Law of Moses with the Ten Commandments, which we are of course bound to keep.

 

[justasking4]

Pixie Dust;4350684]
Originally Posted by justasking4
On what basis do you know this? Hebrews 12:1 does not support the idea that “saints” can hear you here?
I’m not basing it solely on Hebrews 12:1, but on the message of Scriptures, both OT and NT

.

There is no place in Scripture of someone praying to a dead person and that dead person can hear your prayers.

justasking4
I have no reason to doubt since i believe you are a human being and human beings have noses unless of course there is some kind except medical condition that i don’t know about. Its based on what were familiar with. We have experiences with others that we deduce things from. We don’t have such experiences with those who have died.

Pixie Dust
Maybe you don’t, but that’s because you think they’re dead and not alive in Heaven with Christ.

Even if they are alive in Christ that does not mean they can hear you. This is the main issue. Is there a communication going on between the living here and the living in the after life? The Scriptures are clear there is not as a norm for Christians. The only acceptable prayer is to God alone and no other.

 

[Henning]

Catholics don’t claim to “talk to dead people”. They pray to those who have gone on before. Praying is different from talking. Talking is a conversation. Praying is meditation and petitions.
Does that make sense?

Yea.

But say I was praying to a saint, and I somehow, being new to it, inadvertently (psychically or other) opened a channel to the dead-zone that J. Edwards talks to (or rather hears from). I’d probably be excited and think I was talking to the saint. Not knowing how to discern the difference.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

.Even if they are alive in Christ that does not mean they can hear you.

And it doesn’t mean they can’t, either.
JA4:

Is there a communication going on between the living here and the living in the after life? The Scriptures are clear there is not as a norm for Christians.

No, the Scriptures are not clear on whether or not this is the norm for Christians. There is no scripture to address the issue, which is why we turn to the ECF, such as St. Iraneous (AD115-AD200)
JA4:

The only acceptable prayer is to God alone and no other.

No, the only worship that is acceptable is to God alone.“An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Yea.

But say I was praying to a saint, and I somehow, being new to it, inadvertently (psychically or other) opened a channel to the dead-zone that J. Edwards talks to (or rather hears from). I’d probably be excited and think I was talking to the saint. Not knowing how to discern the difference.

Is John Edwards saying, “Faithful departed servant of the Lord, Blessed Teresa of Avila, Pray for me that my prayer life may be enriched.”

No. He’s saying, “Auntie Ethel, show me a picture that will let your nephew know you are communicating with us across the great divide.”

The difference is the purpose and intention.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

If the Jews did such things you won’t find it in the OT.

The Jews had Oral Traditions, too. They certainly weren’t Sola Torah.