'Hail Persephone': Pagans Retool the Rosary

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CherryBomb said:
Anymore, a lot of Pagans (but not all, of course) seems really intent on appropriating as much as they can from as many religions as they can. I think it’s insulting not only to the religions they’re picking bits and pieces from, but to their own, as well.
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I have to agree. I was a huge fan of the prayers I knew and loved from Catholicism, and then having changed words to fit my new “path”, as I called it.
Now that I look back at the things I used to say and do, I am sick, because I was using someone else’s beliefs and twisting them to be my own.
I also have no problem with Wiccans/Witches/Pagans creating their own versions of rosaries, I would just prefer that they used their own, rather than using Catholic ones.

Here are a few prayers I used to use, when I was a Witch. Do they sound familiar?

The Earth is my Mother.
I shall not want.
Her hand brings forth the green pastures.
She tarries within the still waters.
She leads me in fields of fruitfulness for my Glory.
Yea, as I walk through the summer of life unto death,
I will not be afraid, for You are with me.
Your womb in the earth will enfold me.
You prepare a harvest before me and bless my home with children.
You fill me with milk and honey.
My cup overflows.
Surely, goodness and beauty will nurture me all the days of my life,
and I will become part of the earth forever.

Our Mother who art everywhere.
Hallowed be thy name.
Through magick and love,
Thy will be done On Earth,
to make Earth~ heaven.
We thank thee for our daily bread.
Forgive us our trespasses as we
Forgive those who trespass against us.
Let us see temptation for what it is,
So that we may deliver ourselves from evil.
For thine is the energy and the power,
Tonight and forever.
Blessed Be.

Our Mother,
Who art in all places
Blessed be Thy names.
Thy presence be known,
In all hearts thy home,
Upon the Earth which is Thy body.
Grant us this day,
Our daily strength. Guide us through our karma
As we embrace our shadows.
Lead us not into power-over,
But deliver us from ego.
For Thine is the Light, the Dark,
and the Love for ever and ever.
So mote it be.
 
faelpsanfeel said:
I don’t think you understand the degree to which many pagans attach wholly allegorical meanings to their deities. Perhaps Shiva embodies the concepts a person wishes to evoke better than any other analogous gods. Maybe Thor would be appropriate for some ceremonies and Zeus for others.

The gods represent, among other things, the higher natural order of the universe. They are used more as a way to concentrate on abstract concepts that may be difficult to grasp without having some sort of avatar upon which to focus the mind.

Many pagan practitioners even use fictional characters or superheroes in their ceremonies.
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Agreed that there are those who do this, and that is the only way in which I can see Christo-Paganism working.

Just do want to emphasize, that many people whose religions fall under the umbrella description of Neopagan most adamantly do not do so. Personally, I understand my Gods as real individuals, not as avatars, embodiments of abstract concepts, facets of a singular God, etc. We are not all the same any more than all Christians or all monotheists are. 🙂
 
PatienceAndLove said:
I have to agree. I was a huge fan of the prayers I knew and loved from Catholicism, and then having changed words to fit my new “path”, as I called it.
Now that I look back at the things I used to say and do, I am sick, because I was using someone else’s beliefs and twisting them to be my own.
I also have no problem with Wiccans/Witches/Pagans creating their own versions of rosaries, I would just prefer that they used their own, rather than using Catholic ones.

Here are a few prayers I used to use, when I was a Witch. Do they sound familiar?

The Earth is my Mother.
I shall not want.
Her hand brings forth the green pastures.
She tarries within the still waters.
She leads me in fields of fruitfulness for my Glory.
Yea, as I walk through the summer of life unto death,
I will not be afraid, for You are with me.
Your womb in the earth will enfold me.
You prepare a harvest before me and bless my home with children.
You fill me with milk and honey.
My cup overflows.
Surely, goodness and beauty will nurture me all the days of my life,
and I will become part of the earth forever.

Our Mother who art everywhere.
Hallowed be thy name.
Through magick and love,
Thy will be done On Earth,
to make Earth~ heaven.
We thank thee for our daily bread.
Forgive us our trespasses as we
Forgive those who trespass against us.
Let us see temptation for what it is,
So that we may deliver ourselves from evil.
For thine is the energy and the power,
Tonight and forever.
Blessed Be.

Our Mother,
Who art in all places
Blessed be Thy names.
Thy presence be known,
In all hearts thy home,
Upon the Earth which is Thy body.
Grant us this day,
Our daily strength. Guide us through our karma
As we embrace our shadows.
Lead us not into power-over,
But deliver us from ego.
For Thine is the Light, the Dark,
and the Love for ever and ever.
So mote it be.
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These are so sacreligious that I cannot bear to look at them…Praise be on your return to the Catholic Church. If Pagans are creative enough to create their own make - believe religion, they should create their own ORIGINAL prayers and not abuse “ours”.!:banghead: :hmmm: :dts:
 
I think what catches people off guard is that you don’t expect anyone to worship Thor or Zeus or Persphone. Most of these devotions were for all intents and purposes dismantled. This is a historical treatment of religion and not a biased one. Adherents of any Pan-Hellenic gods have been low in numbers for years and the chances of meeting one are so slim as to be fantastic. I’m sure some might disagree, but monotheism dealt a serious blow to pantheism after Constantine’s ascendance. Paganism has always had a transmittance problem; no particular doctrines, no universal structure and no holy book or documents to base or apply anything to.

I am not offended by people’s devotions, but if I happen to meet a worshipper of Ra, or Odin or Bacchus, I hope they don’t get crabby if I stare.
 
wifenmommy said:
These are so sacreligious that I cannot bear to look at them…Praise be on your return to the Catholic Church. If Pagans are creative enough to create their own make - believe religion, they should create their own ORIGINAL prayers and not abuse “ours”.!:banghead: :hmmm: :dts:
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Hey! At least they’re praying! I’d rather have a misguided pagan than a militant atheist any day.
 
wifenmommy said:
These are so sacreligious that I cannot bear to look at them…Praise be on your return to the Catholic Church. If Pagans are creative enough to create their own make - believe religion, they should create their own ORIGINAL prayers and not abuse “ours”.!:banghead: :hmmm: :dts:
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Calm down, a bit here. The Catholic Church has nothing whatsoever to fear from paganism. Remember, we started with 12 when there were Millions of Pagans. Now there are Billions of Christians. Anger will never win minds, nor will weak arguments. In fact, do not argue at all. Instead, Understand first, then you will be able know the depth of belief. Make a friend first, then make a Brother.
 
KarenNC said:
Agreed that there are those who do this, and that is the only way in which I can see Christo-Paganism working.

Just do want to emphasize, that many people whose religions fall under the umbrella description of Neopagan most adamantly do not do so. Personally, I understand my Gods as real individuals, not as avatars, embodiments of abstract concepts, facets of a singular God, etc. We are not all the same any more than all Christians or all monotheists are. 🙂
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Pagan is an umbrella term for an unbeliever, so I don’t think there is such a thing as Christo-Paganism. However, there are some cultures such as those of the Caribbean which have kept aspects of their ‘religion’ (which is really just their culture) and mixed it with Catholicism. Europeans were the first to do this, when we Christianized Pagan holidays. I don’t see anything wrong with this as long as the focus is pointed directly to Christ and the Pagan deity is defeated by this and they are inline with Catholic Christian teaching.
 
…yeah…I guess they are “praying”, but at least an atheist (trust me, an athiest scares me!) does not tear apart our prayers to make them to apease their “god”, goddess, super hero or cartoon character…:tsktsk: :banghead:
 
Apherius said:
Calm down, a bit here. The Catholic Church has nothing whatsoever to fear from paganism. Remember, we started with 12 when there were Millions of Pagans. Now there are Billions of Christians. Anger will never win minds, nor will weak arguments. In fact, do not argue at all. Instead, Understand first, then you will be able know the depth of belief. Make a friend first, then make a Brother.
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…well I tend to become a tad ornery when I see the beautiful reverent prayers of the Church torn appart to appease someone else’ s god…I would never take another faith’s sacred prayers, tear them apart for my own benefit…sorry I choose to defend my faith not lie complacent with those who mock it…
 
wifenmommy said:
…well I tend to become a tad ornery when I see the beautiful reverent prayers of the Church torn appart to appease someone else’ s god…I would never take another faith’s sacred prayers, tear them apart for my own benefit…
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I understand completely. The more charitable you are, the easier it is to bring them back.
 
:hmmm: …true…good point. At least “our” rosary that we should use to pray for them is “legit”! heehee…👍
 
This is turning in to a (if it’s Catholic, bash it thread) which i find distasteful. As everyone should be allowed to practice what they feel is truth for them.

My take is that if you have to bash another faith it shows shortcomings on your own faith.

Back to the topic, I think it is not a good think to mix the rites of different cultures but as religions evolve it is common that people will express them in different ways, before branching off.
 
Semper_Fi said:
. I don’t see anything wrong with this as long as the focus is pointed directly to Christ and the Pagan deity is defeated by this and they are inline with Catholic Christian teaching.
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Pagan deity? Do you mean Pagan God? Isn’t that against a something in the Bible? :rolleyes:
 
faelpsanfeel said:
I don’t think you understand the degree to which many pagans attach wholly allegorical meanings to their deities.
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But they aren’t THEIR deities.
However, there are some cultures such as those of the Caribbean which have kept aspects of their ‘religion’ (which is really just their culture) and mixed it with Catholicism.
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I see this as totally different. Another religion was brought to them, they didn’t didn’t seek it out. Mixing your culture with a religion is one thing, going out of your way to appropriate deities and practices that seem “cool” to you is totally different, imo.

My brother practices Tibetan Gelugpa Buddhism, and he asked me for a prayer card of Jesus to place on his altar. Years ago he destroyed a picture of Jesus and he feels guilty. He’s not trying to appropriate Catholicism, he’s not twisting it, he’s not pretending to pray to Jesus. It’s an expression of love and respect for me and my beliefs, as well as a reminder to to him that the Christians who wounded him in the past don’t speak for Christ, if that makes sense. So in the same sense, I would have no problem with a pagan having an image of Mary because they felt an affinity with her. I WOULD have a problem if they called her their goddess and pretended to worship her.

And thank you for sharing that with us, PatienceandLove. I’m sure it was difficult. I also delved into paganism in the past, I feel where you’re coming from. hugs
 
CherryBomb said:
So in the same sense, I would have no problem with a pagan having an image of Mary because they felt an affinity with her. I WOULD have a problem if they called her their goddess and pretended to worship her.
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I have met with people who would relate it in another way, saying that we worship Mary while they worship their goddess and that they are the same ‘person’ (the quotes are mine). I don’t have a problem with it. I think as long as people don’t use the power of God/Jesus/Mary in a negative way then it is not wrong.

Mary is not the legal property of the Church or anyone for that matter so it cannot be up to someone to say if it is right or wrong if they worship her. I think symbols help people feel connected with their God/Goddess or whatever, so they will use symbols of their culture or past religion. Again I don’t see the problem with it and don’t understand the anger behind some of the vemon related to topics like this.
 
AnIrishCatholic said:
This is turning in to a (if it’s Catholic, bash it thread) which i find distasteful. As everyone should be allowed to practice what they feel is truth for them.

My take is that if you have to bash another faith it shows shortcomings on your own faith.

Back to the topic, I think it is not a good think to mix the rites of different cultures but as religions evolve it is common that people will express them in different ways, before branching off.
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As a DEVOUT CATHOLIC, personally I have no shortcomings of my faith. That being said, we have a right and an obligation to defend our faith in the most charitable way possible. I feel quite sure that if we “borrowed” from another faith their sacred prayers and twisted them into their own, they would get a tad miffed too. I have no problems that people believe what they want to believe, BUT they should come up with their own ORIGINAL prayers—leave “mine” alone.:gopray2:
 
AnIrishCatholic said:
I have met with people who would relate it in another way, saying that we worship Mary while they worship their goddess and that they are the same ‘person’ (the quotes are mine). I don’t have a problem with it. I think as long as people don’t use the power of God/Jesus/Mary in a negative way then it is not wrong.

Mary is not the legal property of the Church or anyone for that matter so it cannot be up to someone to say if it is right or wrong if they worship her. I think symbols help people feel connected with their God/Goddess or whatever, so they will use symbols of their culture or past religion. Again I don’t see the problem with it and don’t understand the anger behind some of the vemon related to topics like this.
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I also don’t have a problem with other religions venerating Mary or asking for her intercession. The problem I have is with people taking a prayer that is intended for asking for Mary’s intercession and twisting it into a prayer to a pagan goddess, or equating Mary with that pagan goddess. I think people should use the “Hail Mary” and the Rosary as they are intended (that is, in a traditional manner with traditional prayers to Mary) or if they would rather pray to a pagan deity or some fusion of Mary and something or someone else, then come up with their own prayers to do it. Is this “Hail Persephone” thing really all that different than the twisted “Our Father” that Satanists pray to Satan? Our prayers are sacred and should be treated thus. That’s my :twocents:
 
I have some Wiccan friends. They have images of Mary in their home. To them she is the “Christian representative” of the Goddess…the Divine Feminine. They make a good case…they have a picture of Isis and Horus next to an icon of the Mother and Child, they look very similar. Divine Archtypes…universal symbols of the Ultimate.

On the Eastern Christianity board there was a discussion of correct icons…one icon in particular was causing a stir…“Lord of the Dance”…I purchase one for myself and one for my friends…it has the Celtic Horned God with nail marks in his hand and feet…a symbol of the Sacrificed God…

If Truth is a universal concept…and if God strives with all humanity to bring them to a knowledge of Him through Christ, why does it surprise us to see many of the sacred images of Christianity in other religions…God through His Spirit is at work in all to bring them to Him.

If it is God and God alone who determines the salvation of one individiual…and if God offers Grace to all humanity…even if it is in through some imperfect means, then why can’t we allow others to find their way to Him? We don’t need to condemn them…but meerly show them the way through our own lives…sometimes they can’t hear what we are saying because our lives are getting in the way.
 
Somes forms of religion are not as acceptable as others. See Aztec and Mayan religious practices. Current Pagan practice is unable to mirror its antecedents in both scope and brutality. There was a reason that Christianity stood out amongst the variety of religion in Roman Empire. Allowing people to go there own way seems to be fine. Coercion is of course not allowed, but curbing religious observances that are morally hideous should not cause hesitation.
 
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