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Voice_of_Reason_1
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Did God send the earthquake that devastated Haiti and the people therein?
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tjm190
Guest
Playing Voltaire, are we?
T
tbtcom1213
Guest
A)Under the many circumstances Haiti has been through no, God didn’t send an earthquake to Haiti like many erroneous people claim. It was the plate shifting under the crust that caused this. Natural disasters happen almost everywhere year round be it a tornado in the Mid-West or a typhoon in the Orient.
B)What can we do in times of crisis? We can pray, we can also give for that is the right thing to do. Give with a cheerful heart. We give not to pat ourselves on the back and feel good we give because it is right and just.
C)Jesus tells us “do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. the people have their own reward but you have your own reward with me.” This Gospel account taken from the propers for Ash Wednesday indicate that when we give or are charitable we should make our actions known to God and him alone because it is HE who we will face on the Last Day. Jesus also had said the woman giving only 2 coins discreetly gave more than the other men who boasted of their offering of two baskets. Remember to humble yourself. With pride there is fall. Kyrie-eleison
Lord, hear our prayer and Glory to you always. Amen
B)What can we do in times of crisis? We can pray, we can also give for that is the right thing to do. Give with a cheerful heart. We give not to pat ourselves on the back and feel good we give because it is right and just.
C)Jesus tells us “do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. the people have their own reward but you have your own reward with me.” This Gospel account taken from the propers for Ash Wednesday indicate that when we give or are charitable we should make our actions known to God and him alone because it is HE who we will face on the Last Day. Jesus also had said the woman giving only 2 coins discreetly gave more than the other men who boasted of their offering of two baskets. Remember to humble yourself. With pride there is fall. Kyrie-eleison
Lord, hear our prayer and Glory to you always. Amen
J
juliamajor
Guest
No.Tectonic plates going awry caused the quake.
F
fermat
Guest
It would be impossible for us to ever know that unless He decided to tell us. I am astounded that there are people out there who presume to know the mind of God in an instance like this.
J
juliamajor
Guest
Since no warning has been issued by the almighty, and earthquakes happen all the time-I’ll put my money on Natural order-not supernatural order.It would be impossible for us to ever know that unless He decided to tell us. I am astounded that there are people out there who presume to know the mind of God in an instance like this.
K
kimmielittle
Guest
What does the voice of reason tell you?Did God send the earthquake that devastated Haiti and the people therein?
A
Alegare21
Guest
No I would say it wasn’t God. It was one of the many volcanoes in the carribean that caused it (no it was NOT a plate moving because there are no plates ending and beginning in the western atlantic ocean).
Q
Qoeleth
Guest
No, God did not send it. It may be attributed to the “Lord of this World”, who is also the “Father of Lies” (cf. John)
God offers consolation to those who suffer the evil of this passing world (such as those in Haiti). Through such suffering, we often come to realise that this world is but a deception and a vanity, and focus our hope on the True Life, which is the Eternal Life, after our earthly exile in this valley of tears is over.
God offers consolation to those who suffer the evil of this passing world (such as those in Haiti). Through such suffering, we often come to realise that this world is but a deception and a vanity, and focus our hope on the True Life, which is the Eternal Life, after our earthly exile in this valley of tears is over.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
and a series of human sin cascading into the political, social and economic desolation Haiti labors under, which will make relief and recovery so difficult, cannot be blamed on God.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
Here’s what Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ said when asked a similar question:
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
S
SophiaLector
Guest
Did God send:
The Holocaust
The Black Plague
9/11
WWI
WWII
AIDS
Katrina
The catastrophic Tsunami of 2003-2004
Mt St Helens’ and Vesuvius’ eruptions
???
The Holocaust
The Black Plague
9/11
WWI
WWII
AIDS
Katrina
The catastrophic Tsunami of 2003-2004
Mt St Helens’ and Vesuvius’ eruptions
???
A
aussie_jaz
Guest
no plates ?No I would say it wasn’t God. It was one of the many volcanoes in the carribean that caused it (no it was NOT a plate moving because there are no plates ending and beginning in the western atlantic ocean).
how about the coming together of the north american plate with the carribean plate
H
Harri_Laaksonen
Guest
I have been off-line for a while because of technical problems, my under warranty modem died and it took my operators nearly 2 months to realize that one does not fix things like that and got me a new one.No I would say it wasn’t God. It was one of the many volcanoes in the carribean that caused it (no it was NOT a plate moving because there are no plates ending and beginning in the western atlantic ocean).
It seems I am back just in time to put my geologist hat on.
There are 2 strong subduction (plate boundary) zones just to the east and north of the Hispaniola region. This particular quake was not related to either of those. There are breaks called “transform faults” which move at right angles to subduction zones and ridges and this was one of those.
It has not slipped in over 200 years and the strength of the quake shows that there was a lot of stress built up. An earth quake results when a fault becomes “un-stuck” and all the energy is suddenly released.
Another factor in this quake was the nature of the soil under Port au Prince. It is not solid rock it is mostly loose sand. It shakes as does everything on top of it. If buildings are not well built, and most were not, they crumble and people are caught under them.
To see the faith of the Haitian people is reassuring but they need help and a lot of it.
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
That’s right. I’m bringing back the straw-man argument in a big way.Playing Voltaire, are we?
A)Under the many circumstances Haiti has been through no, God didn’t send an earthquake to Haiti like many erroneous people claim. It was the plate shifting under the crust that caused this.
No.Tectonic plates going awry caused the quake.
Since no warning has been issued by the almighty, and earthquakes happen all the time-I’ll put my money on Natural order-not supernatural order.
No I would say it wasn’t God. It was one of the many volcanoes in the carribean that caused it (no it was NOT a plate moving because there are no plates ending and beginning in the western atlantic ocean).
Who sent the plate shifting under the crust (or whatever other cause)? Who put this shabby natural order into motion? Let’s not be naive; I’m not asking “what is an earthquake? What are the natural forerunners of earthquakes?” (I’m looking for answers that are more along the lines of moral theology, as the thread title suggests).There are 2 strong subduction (plate boundary) zones just to the east and north of the Hispaniola region. This particular quake was not related to either of those. There are breaks called “transform faults” which move at right angles to subduction zones and ridges and this was one of those.
It has not slipped in over 200 years and the strength of the quake shows that there was a lot of stress built up. An earth quake results when a fault becomes “un-stuck” and all the energy is suddenly released.
Another factor in this quake was the nature of the soil under Port au Prince. It is not solid rock it is mostly loose sand. It shakes as does everything on top of it. If buildings are not well built, and most were not, they crumble and people are caught under them.
To see the faith of the Haitian people is reassuring but they need help and a lot of it.
If we can’t know this about God, one wonders what, if anything, can be known about God. This quake seems to be in need of divine explanation, doesn’t it? Certainly doesn’t seem very prudent to level off so many people needlessly. But then again, I don’t know the mind of God.It would be impossible for us to ever know that unless He decided to tell us. I am astounded that there are people out there who presume to know the mind of God in an instance like this.
So the devil, who shares no authorship in the creation of the world and it’s natural laws, is responsible for the natural laws that inflict pain, but not the natural laws that bring pleasure and remind us of beauty and goodness? I worry that this distinction might get a little subjective. Tell me more about how this is the devil’s work, please.No, God did not send it. It may be attributed to the “Lord of this World”, who is also the “Father of Lies” (cf. John)
Why do you mention human sin, and political/social/economic desolation? Am I to take into sublime that such relational turmoil warranted the chaos (but was nevertheless the cause of a benevolent creator-God?)and a series of human sin cascading into the political, social and economic desolation Haiti labors under, which will make relief and recovery so difficult, cannot be blamed on God.
Also, very inviting questions. I’d like to deal with this one right now, just because it hasn’t yet become remote.Did God send:
The Holocaust
The Black Plague
9/11
WWI
WWII
AIDS
Katrina
The catastrophic Tsunami of 2003-2004
Mt St Helens’ and Vesuvius’ eruptions
???
These are all wonderful answers (though not to questions I asked). I have learned, however, that it was the devil and that it wasn’t God’s fault (whatsoever the case). So let the thread evolve from this point:
- How is God, who’s creation is an authorship of his own, not responsible for the natural order which brought unthinkable horror and devastation to Haiti recently?
- How was it the work of the devil?
E
estesbob
Guest
Great post. I learned something new today!I have been off-line for a while because of technical problems, my under warranty modem died and it took my operators nearly 2 months to realize that one does not fix things like that and got me a new one.
It seems I am back just in time to put my geologist hat on.
There are 2 strong subduction (plate boundary) zones just to the east and north of the Hispaniola region. This particular quake was not related to either of those. There are breaks called “transform faults” which move at right angles to subduction zones and ridges and this was one of those.
It has not slipped in over 200 years and the strength of the quake shows that there was a lot of stress built up. An earth quake results when a fault becomes “un-stuck” and all the energy is suddenly released.
Another factor in this quake was the nature of the soil under Port au Prince. It is not solid rock it is mostly loose sand. It shakes as does everything on top of it. If buildings are not well built, and most were not, they crumble and people are caught under them.
To see the faith of the Haitian people is reassuring but they need help and a lot of it.
B
Bookcat
Guest
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Providence and the scandal of evil.
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
…
314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.
IN BRIEF
…
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
From: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324
Providence and the scandal of evil.
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
…
314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.
IN BRIEF
…
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
From: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324
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Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
Allow me to highlight the opperative words and phrases:
Mysterious
No quick [satisfying] answer
Terrible mystery
There’s a lot of mumbojumbo that doesn’t answer our question of evil so much as it does point us to the fluffier, more romantic aspects of Christianity. The other part of it suggests that it is something terrible, unknown, and decidedly unknown until we meet (if we meet) God (if there’s God) face-to-face. It’s an evasion of an answer, not an answer itself.
So from here, let’s decide a couple things:
PainfulFrom the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Providence and the scandal of evil.
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
Mysterious
No quick [satisfying] answer
Terrible mystery
There’s a lot of mumbojumbo that doesn’t answer our question of evil so much as it does point us to the fluffier, more romantic aspects of Christianity. The other part of it suggests that it is something terrible, unknown, and decidedly unknown until we meet (if we meet) God (if there’s God) face-to-face. It’s an evasion of an answer, not an answer itself.
So God is decidedly responsible, because he willed it. He specifically willed the destruction of much of Haiti by this earthquake because he willed the world to be in a state of journeying. Since God’s perfect world was willed to have components of construction and destruction for a state of journeying, shall we praise God for this horror?310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
Okay, so God is the established culprit for the disaster. Thankyou for making this clear. Now you’ve attested that it is unknown to us why this is the case. Allow me to interject: the reason we know that good things happen (and certainly they are not called mysteries) is because God wants good things for his children. We wonder why bad things happen because it doesn’t seem consistent with our claim for God, that he is either provident in the ways we would imagine, or omni-benevolent. I agree; it is a great difficulty that raises a lot of questions about God.314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.
One would think, for the good of his children’s faiths, God would have made the problem of evil a point of revelation. Indeed He did! The bible says that God acts to his own whims according to his desire for grace or thirst for wrath.324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
So from here, let’s decide a couple things:
- Why does God desire the world to be in a state of journeying (which includes destruction)?
- Why should we suppose that God wants the world in a state of journeying (where is the source for this belief)?
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Can you tell me, VOR, whether evil can exist independently of good?
V
Voice_of_Reason_1
Guest
It depends on whose perception you’re drawing on. You might be tempted to say that we can’t know Good without knowing Evil. Then I’d say, “Why must we know Goodness, in order that we might know evil. If God had created only the former, then it would not matter if we could conceptualize evil; the world would be free of pain.” And then you might say “How can we establish our goodness if there aren’t any evil alternatives?” And of course my argument is that we shouldn’t have to establish our goodness; God should have made us well, rather than ill - too ill for most to merit the salvation God is dangling in front of us, just out of reach.Can you tell me, VOR, whether evil can exist independently of good?
Whatever you’re getting at (it really could be a number of things), you’re assuming that Good and Evil are important distinctions. I would agree, only because they exist, but I don’t necessarily think they should exist under an omni-benevolent dictatorship. But I digress; what is it you’d like to say about the disaster in Haiti regarding good and evil?
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