Halloween

[Lost_Wanderer]

I use secular and pagan as interchangeable terms, since secularism is just a strategy against Christianity and more precisely, Catholicism.

And what is a pagan?

Not Abrahamic.

Wrong. Even Wikipedia will tell you that there’s a fine difference between pagan religions and secularism. Pagan implies not just ‘not Abrahamic’ but also still a religion. Secularism attempts to diminish the influence of religion in a certain area of life. In this case, holidays.

So again. Halloween is no more pagan than secularized Christmas.

 

[Castello]

I watched an interesting doc on hulu.com yesterday, courtesy of the History Channel.

Very interesting, light, info on the history of the American celebration of Hallowe’en.

Please, don’t trust The Heresy Channel when it comes to the Church.

Stick with the Catholic facts.

catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/calendar/day.cfm?date=2011-10-31

 

[CesarAugustus]

Wrong. Even Wikipedia will tell you that there’s a fine difference between pagan religions and secularism. Pagan implies not just ‘not Abrahamic’ but also still a religion. Secularism attempts to diminish the influence of religion in a certain area of life. In this case, holidays.

So again. Halloween is no more pagan than secularized Christmas.

And secularized Christmas isn’t a good thing either.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And secularized Christmas isn’t a good thing either.

Not necessarily. Again, let us return to the subject of creating a false dichotomy. There is no conflict between the two. One can enjoy Halloween and still pay respects during All Saint’s Day. It’s no more difficult than adhering to the Christian truths in Christmas whilst still enjoying Santa Clause stories.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Luke gives no date or even the time of year in his account of the Annunciation." In the sixth month" is clearly a reference to the previous verse, in which Elizabeth retires from public life for five months. Besides, the sixth month in the Julian Calendar under the Roman Empire was Iunius, which is now called June so that wouldn’t match up with March 25 in any case. St John Chrysostom describes the feat of Christ mas in the fourth century, but the feast of the Annunciation doesn’t appear anywhere until about 500. In other words, the feast of Christmas was determined, and when the Annunciation was added to the calendar the Church placed the date for it nine months prior to Christmas, so that it would be consistent.

I’m having some trouble finding the sources, but I was reading in a Catholic website, that since 221 AD, Christmas was celebrated in December 25.

Also a reference to Sextus Julius Africanus writing about that date.

It seem that the sixth month, is not based on the Julian calender.

Blessings!

 

[CesarAugustus]

Not necessarily. Again, let us return to the subject of creating a false dichotomy. There is no conflict between the two. One can enjoy Halloween and still pay respects during All Saint’s Day. It’s no more difficult than adhering to the Christian truths in Christmas whilst still enjoying Santa Clause stories.

Well, I’m not the only one that sees that conflict.

Where I live, and in many places too, people is celebrating halloween instead of the vespers to All Saints Day.

Also, Santa Claus has a darker history too… and not, I’m not speaking about Saint Nicholas of Bari.

These things are part of the secularization efforts that I don’t like.

Blessings!

 

[CesarAugustus]

I was searching a forum thread about Christmas in a Catholic forum in Spanish, fortunately, I found some interesting data:

foros.catholic.net/viewtopic.php?p=789056

See the last post.

Maybe I’ll translate that soon.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Well, I’m not the only one that sees that conflict.

Where I live, and in many places too, people is celebrating halloween instead of the vespers to All Saints Day.

Yes well to insist there is when the logic states otherwise isn’t very bright, no matter how many people insist.

Also, Santa Claus has a darker history too… and not, I’m not speaking about Saint Nicholas of Bari.

So you’re to tell me that teaching kids about Christmas being a time of giving and sharing is dark, secularized, and un-Christian?

 

[CesarAugustus]

Yes well to insist there is when the logic states otherwise isn’t very bright, no matter how many people insist.

So you’re to tell me that teaching kids about Christmas being a time of giving and sharing is dark, secularized, and un-Christian?

Isn’t very bright?

Because I’m concerned with secular celebrations taking over religious celebrations?

I see a big problem with that, specially when many Catholics have mediocre education about their faith.

But I guess one of the reasons for that… semi-pelagianism, seeing the Catholic faith as another human venture, without the spiritual component… one of the problems of the recent decades.

The history of the Santa Claus character, and how he was developed, culminating in the XIX century and beginnings of XX century.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Isn’t very bright?

Because I’m concerned with secular celebrations taking over religious celebrations?

No, because you and apparently a lot of other people think you can’t have both. Good Lord, I can’t see how hard it is to go trick-or-treating on Halloween and then schedule a short trip to the cemetery the day after.

Likewise, I don’t see how it’s wrong to watch a VCD of The Grinch right after Midnight Mass.

 

[CesarAugustus]

See, you forgot the Vespers of All Saints Day…

Maybe you don’t see the problem of secularism overtaking religious feast with the promotion of things like halloween and secularized Christmas…

but the problem is still there.

Why celebrate such things, having better things to do?

Another thing, sadly in many places people only think about the secular celebrations.

Blessings!



P.S. And not, your example of watching a movie doesn’t compare to the disasters over here in the Christmas season.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

See, you forgot the Vespers of All Saints Day…

Maybe you don’t see the problem of secularism overtaking religious feast with the promotion of things like halloween and secularized Christmas…

but the problem is still there.

Again, overtaking? Frankly I find it stupid that both the secular crowd and the religious crowd insist on separating the two when LOGICALLY it doesn’t have to be that way. I mean for goodness sake, Halloween is in fact BEFORE All Saint’s and you’re worried about not having time for either?

Why celebrate such things, having better things to do?

Why not both? You’re saying people can’t have fun during Halloween?

P.S. And not, your example of watching a movie doesn’t compare to the disasters over here in the Christmas season.

What? Like Christmas shopping? That’s a disaster only if you make it so. Decorating? Oh please, just set up a Christmas tree and put a wreath on your front door. Good God and I thought only the secular folks like to suck up all the good stuff in Christmas.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Again, overtaking? Frankly I** find it stupid that both the secular crowd and the religious crowd insist on separating the two when LOGICALLY it doesn’t have to be that way**. I mean for goodness sake, Halloween is in fact BEFORE All Saint’s and you’re worried about not having time for either?

Why not both? You’re saying people can’t have fun during Halloween?

What? Like Christmas shopping? That’s a disaster only if you make it so. Decorating? Oh please, just set up a Christmas tree and put a wreath on your front door. Good God and I thought only the secular folks like to suck up all the good stuff in Christmas.

Logically?

I hope you aren’t putting secular and religious celebrations at the same level.

If parents want to dress their children in costumes, many Priests have suggested alternatives, like doing it in another day, or putting them into religious themed costumes in order to add the Catholic distinctive so needed in today’s world, avoiding the usual halloween connotations.

Again, you forgot about the vespers… have a look at this page, is in Spanish, but shows the Liturgy of the Hours for today:

liturgiadelashoras.com.ar/

No. Is obvious that you have no idea about the disasters where I live (South America).

I’m speaking about a increasing secularization of the celebrations…

and other things like people getting drunk, bad behavior, don’t going to Mass, forgetting what they are celebrating… and the media promoting things that don’t have to do with Christmas.

Decorations…well ,when Santa Claus figures, snowmen and the like are being imposed over Nativity Scenes and Religious themed decorations we have a problem.

Malls, buildings… one can see a slowly decreasing of Nativity themed decorations and being replaced with the things described above.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Logically?

I hope you aren’t putting secular and religious celebrations at the same level.

No, I’m saying you can do both. Unless you really suck at making your own schedule, that should not a problem for most people.

If parents want to dress their children in costumes, many Priests have suggested alternatives, like doing it in another day, or putting them into religious themed costumes in order to add the Catholic distinctive so needed in today’s world, avoiding the usual halloween connotations.

All Saint’s Day is not even on the same day as Halloween. Please read my previous post (and perhaps do research on the actual date of the celebration).

Besides, why avoid the Halloween connotation? What’s wrong with the spooky theme? No, I will not accept the whole ‘invasion of secularization’ anymore. It’s quite clear you can have both.

I’m speaking about a increasing secularization of the celebrations…

I repeat, that is not a case against actually celebrating them. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a good Santa Clause story and at the same time, acknowledging the Christian meaning of the season. Same with Halloween.

 

[CesarAugustus]

No, I’m saying you can do both. Unless you really suck at making your own schedule, that should not a problem for most people.

All Saint’s Day is not even on the same day as Halloween. Please read my previous post (and perhaps do research on the actual date of the celebration).

Besides, why avoid the Halloween connotation? What’s wrong with the spooky theme? No, I will not accept the whole ‘invasion of secularization’ anymore. It’s quite clear you can have both.

I repeat, that is not a case against actually celebrating them. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a good Santa Clause story and at the same time, acknowledging the Christian meaning of the season. Same with Halloween.

Again, you forgot about the vespers of All Saints Day.

When?

October 31.

I know about the date of All Saints Day, but you ovelooked the fact that I’m speaking about vespers.

Religious triumphs over secular anytime.

I don’t see why celebrate cheap secular knockoffs (secularized Christmas) or halloween when having the true Religious celebrations.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Again, you forgot about the vespers of All Saints Day.

When?

October 31.

I ignored them on purpose. Unless it’s something of obligatory nature (and you know Vespers are NOT obligatory, not by a long shot), then they’re not worth addressing.

I know about the date of All Saints Day, but you ovelooked the fact that I’m speaking about vespers.

Religious triumphs over secular anytime.

Not when the religion itself does not demand it.

I don’t see why celebrate cheap secular knockoffs (secularized Christmas) or halloween when having the true Religious celebrations.

Because they’re more fun and more interesting? And again, who is to say you can’t have both? You CAN still fulfill your religious obligations to these seasons all the while enjoying the fun side to them. The world doesn’t always have to be Religion vs Secular.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I ignored them on purpose. Unless it’s something of obligatory nature (and you know Vespers are NOT obligatory, not by a long shot), then they’re not worth addressing.

Not when the religion itself does not demand it.

Because they’re more fun and more interesting? And again, who is to say you can’t have both? You CAN still fulfill your religious obligations to these seasons all the while enjoying the fun side to them. The world doesn’t always have to be Religion vs Secular.

Not obligatory but better than halloween.

More fun and interesting, what?

(That sounds similar to the kind of reasoning behind of “fun” and “interesting” Masses and some liturgical abuses.)

You read my post about the disasters over here?

I don’t see that kind of celebrations as a good thing.

Our faith is not another human venture, we are in the road to Sanctity.

You are equaling secular celebrations to religious ones. Or at least is what one can see in your posts.

And, when I’m speaking about secularism, I’m referring to the efforts devised to remove Catholicism (and Christianity) from the way.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Not obligatory but better than halloween.

That depends on your sense of taste, not a sense of morality. Favoring secular activities over optional religious ones is not a sin. If I choose to play video games or write fiction over liturgies and the Rosary, then that’s my right and I’m not going to hell for it.

More fun and interesting, what?

(That sounds similar to the kind of reasoning behind of “fun” and “interesting” Masses and some liturgical abuses.)

You’re misconstruing my position. I really, really hate to say this but you’re starting to sound like somebody who looks down/condemns people who prefer to have fun on Halloween over an optional religious activity because they don’t share your pleasure in such activities. How you got from my words to liturgical abuse is beyond me.

You read my post about the disasters over here?

Did you read what I said about how that doesn’t make it a case? So what if there are fewer nativity scenes in malls? They’ll probably be less expensive that way. Does our faith rely so much on petty external expressions like that?

 

[CesarAugustus]

That depends on your sense of taste, not a sense of morality. Favoring secular activities over optional religious ones is not a sin. If I choose to play video games or write fiction over liturgies and the Rosary, then that’s my right and I’m not going to hell for it.

You’re misconstruing my position. I really, really hate to say this but you’re starting to sound like somebody who looks down/condemns people who prefer to have fun on Halloween over an optional religious activity because they don’t share your pleasure in such activities. How you got from my words to liturgical abuse is beyond me.

Did you read what I said about how that doesn’t make it a case? So what if there are fewer nativity scenes in malls? They’ll probably be less expensive that way. Does our faith rely so much on petty external expressions like that?

No, I’m not looking down on anyone.

And the video games and fiction thing… that is not a good example… look the numeral 2.

1. Not, is not less expensive, in fact, the new decorations are more pompous and are of bigger size.

In TV is the same, lots of references to Santa Claus, and the like, and less space devoted to remember what Christmas is about. With every year, the problem is growing.

And that is not the only thing, you forgot about this:

and other things like people getting drunk, bad behavior, don’t going to Mass, forgetting what they are celebrating… and the media promoting things that don’t have to do with Christmas.

1. When I’m speaking about secular celebrations, I’m referring to them being part of secularism, the continued efforts directed at banishing Catholicism (and the rest of Christianity) from the map.

We are experiencing that over here. Plus the continuous decreasing of the devotion and practice of the faith, you have a recipe for disaster.

And in the Holy Week is the same, people took that like another vacation… and the promotion of another activities… well.

The anti Catholic societies are powerful in South America and some parts of Europe. They are behind some of the secularist efforts.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1. Not, is not less expensive, in fact, the new decorations are more pompous and are of bigger size.

By less expensive, I was talking about the Nativity decorations.

In TV is the same, lots of references to Santa Claus, and the like, and less space devoted to remember what Christmas is about. With every year, the problem is growing.

So? Does the strength of our faith rely on how much it’s being advertised on TV? What do we have EWTN for if that’s such a tragedy?

and other things like people getting drunk, bad behavior, don’t going to Mass, forgetting what they are celebrating… and the media promoting things that don’t have to do with Christmas.

People do that sort of thing all year. Christmas isn’t some special exception. I’ll take the usual phrase “Look For Any Reason To Party” as my argument. It’s not really Christmas or Halloween at stake here. It’s the fact that society is growing increasingly idiotic and lacking priorities.

Please, for the sake of your intellectual integrity, stop complaining that somehow a preference for secular is going to destroy someone’s faith or destroy his/her religion. Going back to the main point, our religion has never even demanded much in the first place in that it makes enjoying the secular side of things impossible.

I really feel concerned over your sympathy towards traditionalist mindsets because some of them breed very alarmist tendencies. (Not to mention, skews people’s perspective into a false dichotomy.)