Halloween?

[Portrait]

.

I also disagree with your assessment on an above post where you said someone was perilously close to moral relativism. That simply is not true. Moral relativism does not apply in areas that in which the Church has not pronounce. Rather, moral relativism is “*The philosophized notion that right and wrong are not absolute values, but are personalized according to the individual and his or her circumstances or cultural orientation. *” No one is denying that there are absolute values. C’mon, man! We are all Catholics here. We accept strongly the idea of absolute moral values. However, not everything has absolute moral value.

/
Dear pnewton,

Cordial greetongs and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

Whilst there may be other reasons why we disagree respecting this matter of modern Halloween celebrations, the primary reason, I submit, is the issue of conscience, dear friend.
Moreover, it is indisputably the case that if a man does not have a well-formed conscience he will necessarily make catastrophic errors of prudential judgment on a whole range of issues, including those upon which our Church is silent. Now can we really be indifferent about this and dismiss it as “everyone to their own” or “one man’s meat is another man’s poison” or “live and let live”? If men are making erroneous and morally unhealthy choices that are plainly not conducive to holiness, then surely it is right and proper that they are fraternally corrected and even admonished by their more spiritual Catholic brethren (cf. Gal 6: 1).

Indeed, dear friend, you are quite correct, we do as Catholics accept that there are moral absolutes. However, it is wrong to assume that just because something does not fall under the heading of being a moral absolute, then it is automatically morally permissible. That sort of thinking does, I would contend, betray the influence of moral relativism because it does not view the matter from a broader perspective, for example, whether a particular leisure pursuit or action comports with the call to Christian holiness, or whether it is morally unhealthy and likely to be an inducement to sin. Moreover, it also betrays a mind imbued with worldliness and the spirit of the age and which is endeavouring to justify not living up to the arduous requirements of our most holy religion.

Moral relativism - the everybody is right and nobody is wrong mindset - has been steadily embraced as the primary moral philosphy of modern Western society and its irreligious culture. Unfortunately, dear friend, many contemporary Catholics (even some who would indentify as conservative) have not remained impervious to this godless world-view and this is to be seen in the time they expend in speciously justifying all manner of worldliness and morally unhealthy actions. Worldliness and morally unhealthy actions that would have never been tolerated by the more rigorous practice of Catholicism prior to the emergence of the social upheaval of the Sixties - that “whole generation with a new explanation”, which is largely responsible for the dysfunctional society with which we are now surrounded. Naturally, those who have been influenced by this morally relativistic world-view will be quick to argue that where Church has not officially condemned something then, dublis libertas (where doubt exists liberty should be granted to every man). This, I will concede, sounds superficially plausible but it is, nonetheless, fundamentally flawed reasoning because it stubbornly refuses to look to the wider issue of the pursuit of sanctity and separation from the world and what is conducive towards that high calling. This is why, for example, you have putative Catholics vociferously defending and rationalizing listening to debased sensory material such as rock and pop music and why you have others seeking to justify the use of four-letter words in works of fiction and even in everyday discourse. Again, it is also the reason why you have others defending to the death the right of Catholic women to wear seductive style clothing, such as mini-skirts etc, which plainly transgress the boundaries of propriety and decency.

Now, dear friend, it is this erroneous and worldly thinking that is responsible for men seeking to rationalize being involved in the modern and neo-pagan celebration of Halloween, with its strong undercurrent of occultism and emphasis upon macarbe horror themes. Sadly, all of this is making All Hallows Even all too hollow! Surely we Catholics, of all people, should be helping to reclaim Halloween from its decidedly pagan and dark associations, once again seeking to make it the “Night of Light” (Damien Stayne). We do not require official pronouncments from the Magisterium telling us the obvious about morally unhealthy Halloween celebrations, no more than we require it to tell us that the use of profanity or provocative style attire is unbefitting in those who profess Christ’s holy religion. A well-formed conscience, not deadened to that which is morally unhealthy, does tell us that certain things are plainly wrong and unacceptable, notwithstanding an absence of official magisterial pronouncements, and only a mind imbued with the spirit of the age would seriously stop to deny or challenge this.

God bless and this will be my final posting as I feel that I have said all that I can say upon this topic for now, but my only plea is that those reading this thread will at least ponder carefully what Mickey and myself have said respecting modern Halloween celebrations and their occultic associations and how such associations could possibly be a pathway into the occultic subcultures by stimulating interest. Thankyou, dearly beloved friends.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

 

[pnewton]

Indeed, dear friend, you are quite correct, we do as Catholics accept that there are moral absolutes. However, it is wrong to assume that just because something does not fall under the heading of being a moral absolute, then it is automatically morally permissible.

I didn’t say that. I said it is not moral relativism. Moreover, if one recognizes something as* outside*

 

[Mickey]

Dear pnewton,

Cordial greetongs and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

Whilst there may be other reasons why we disagree respecting this matter of modern Halloween celebrations, the primary reason, I submit, is the issue of conscience, dear friend.
Moreover, it is indisputably the case that if a man does not have a well-formed conscience he will necessarily make catastrophic errors of prudential judgment on a whole range of issues, including those upon which our Church is silent. Now can we really be indifferent about this and dismiss it as “everyone to their own” or “one man’s meat is another man’s poison” or “live and let live”? If men are making erroneous and morally unhealthy choices that are plainly not conducive to holiness, then surely it is right and proper that they are fraternally corrected and even admonished by their more spiritual Catholic brethren (cf. Gal 6: 1).

Indeed, dear friend, you are quite correct, we do as Catholics accept that there are moral absolutes. However, it is wrong to assume that just because something does not fall under the heading of being a moral absolute, then it is automatically morally permissible. That sort of thinking does, I would contend, betray the influence of moral relativism because it does not view the matter from a broader perspective, for example, whether a particular leisure pursuit or action comports with the call to Christian holiness, or whether it is morally unhealthy and likely to be an inducement to sin. Moreover, it also betrays a mind imbued with worldliness and the spirit of the age and which is endeavouring to justify not living up to the arduous requirements of our most holy religion.

Moral relativism - the everybody is right and nobody is wrong mindset - has been steadily embraced as the primary moral philosphy of modern Western society and its irreligious culture. Unfortunately, dear friend, many contemporary Catholics (even some who would indentify as conservative) have not remained impervious to this godless world-view and this is to be seen in the time they expend in speciously justifying all manner of worldliness and morally unhealthy actions. Worldliness and morally unhealthy actions that would have never been tolerated by the more rigorous practice of Catholicism prior to the emergence of the social upheaval of the Sixties - that “whole generation with a new explanation”, which is largely responsible for the dysfunctional society with which we are now surrounded. Naturally, those who have been influenced by this morally relativistic world-view will be quick to argue that where Church has not officially condemned something then, dublis libertas (where doubt exists liberty should be granted to every man). This, I will concede, sounds superficially plausible but it is, nonetheless, fundamentally flawed reasoning because it stubbornly refuses to look to the wider issue of the pursuit of sanctity and separation from the world and what is conducive towards that high calling. This is why, for example, you have putative Catholics vociferously defending and rationalizing listening to debased sensory material such as rock and pop music and why you have others seeking to justify the use of four-letter words in works of fiction and even in everyday discourse. Again, it is also the reason why you have others defending to the death the right of Catholic women to wear seductive style clothing, such as mini-skirts etc, which plainly transgress the boundaries of propriety and decency.

Now, dear friend, it is this erroneous and worldly thinking that is responsible for men seeking to rationalize being involved in the modern and neo-pagan celebration of Halloween, with its strong undercurrent of occultism and emphasis upon macarbe horror themes. Sadly, all of this is making All Hallows Even all too hollow! Surely we Catholics, of all people, should be helping to reclaim Halloween from its decidedly pagan and dark associations, once again seeking to make it the “Night of Light” (Damien Stayne). We do not require official pronouncments from the Magisterium telling us the obvious about morally unhealthy Halloween celebrations, no more than we require it to tell us that the use of profanity or provocative style attire is unbefitting in those who profess Christ’s holy religion. A well-formed conscience, not deadened to that which is morally unhealthy, does tell us that certain things are plainly wrong and unacceptable, notwithstanding an absence of official magisterial pronouncements, and only a mind imbued with the spirit of the age would seriously stop to deny or challenge this.

God bless and this will be my final posting as I feel that I have said all that I can say upon this topic for now, but my only plea is that those reading this thread will at least ponder carefully what Mickey and myself have said respecting modern Halloween celebrations and their occultic associations and how such associations could possibly be a pathway into the occultic subcultures by stimulating interest. Thankyou, dearly beloved friends.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

Great post!

Do not treat your conscience with contempt, for it always advises you to do what is best. It sets before you the will of God and the angels; it frees you from the secret defilements of the heart; and when you depart this life it grants you the gift of intimacy with God.
St. Maximos the Confessor

 

[shannyk]

[Should Catholics Celebrate Halloween](http:// Should Catholics Celebrate Halloween?)

 

[EasterJoy]

…it is this erroneous and worldly thinking that is responsible for men seeking to rationalize being involved in the modern and neo-pagan celebration of Halloween, with its strong undercurrent of occultism and emphasis upon macarbe horror themes…

You cannot form a correct conscience on false information. You have to stick to what is true.

For the thousandth time, Halloween is not neo-pagan. That is simply false. In fact, there are schools who are discontinuing Halloween observances not because the celebration is a doorway to the occult, but because the neo-pagans who practice in the occult find that Halloween trivializes what they are doing! They think it is offensive to their false religion!!

*On the district’s list of guidelines related to holidays and celebrations is an item that reads: “Use of derogatory stereotypes is prohibited, such as the traditional image of a witch, which is offensive to members of the Wiccan religion.”

“I do lots of things that are not revolving around wearing a black outfit and stirring a cauldron,” Wiccan priestess Cheryl Sulyma-Masson said in an interview with ABC News in which she explained that Wiccans, or Pagan Clergy, celebrate nature. *
abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=184701&page=1

So, if you want to argue against Halloween on the ground that you want to have “ecumenical respect” for nature-worshippers, you’ll be on the same page with them.

Today’s Halloween has its roots in a time when people, children included, would dress up in macabre costumes to remind people of death or to commemorate grizly events like the execution of the seven brothers of Macabees. Brought to this country, the celebration was an enjoyable way to celebrate the cycle of life and death, with death getting center stage because it was the fall and the end of the liturgical year. Nature dies down in the fall, and it is the natural time to look death in the eye. Far from glamourizing witches and witchcraft, costumes depicting witches and devils made these into things of horror, things that one clearly ought to stay away from!! The costumes intend to depict evil and witchcraft with all glamour taken away. (The only real harm in the costumes, actually, is that in some places and times they have subjected odd-looking or weird-dressing people to undeserved suspicions and exclusion based on fear.) “Trick or treat” was invented as a way to prevent vandalism, because the kids would get in these costumes and realize that they could go out and do anything and no one would know who it was. It never had anything to do with wanting to dabble in the occult!

So…if you don’t want to celebrate Halloween, that is fine, if you find it tempts you personally to a facination for the occult, OK. An immigrant, for instance, could come in and very easily say, “I know what you say it means to you, but it wouldn’t mean that to me, and so no thank you!!”

That is very different from making up some false characterization of why it is celebrated and what it means to those who do. You have inquired about whether this is dabbling in the occult, fine. To contend that it is dabbling in the occult when it is no such thing, however, is rash judgment. You have raised the concern and have room to judge your fellow Christians’ participation in a favorable way. Allow your conscience to lead you to do that!

 

[Mickey]

“Trick or treat” was invented as a way to prevent vandalism, because the kids would get in these costumes and realize that they could go out and do anything and no one would know who it was. It never had anything to do with wanting to dabble in the occult!

The vandalism still occurs in many areas the evening before trick-or-treating which has become known as devil’s night.

To contend that it is dabbling in the occult when it is no such thing, however, is rash judgment.

I think you misunderstand. There is an annual event that glamourizes occultic symbolism. The costumes seem to get more evil every year. The other day, I walked into a department store and there was a demon with dripping fangs, covered in blood with red glowing eyes staring at me. It was downright demonic! It’s everywhere! Houses are decorated like the passage to hell…and this is where the children go to get their candy. You may say that children are not joining Covens because of halloween…but I think you are missing the point. Whether you care to admit it or not…our children are being exposed and desensitized to demonic and occultic symbols and characters for at least one month out of every year. As I said earlier, “remembrance of death” is not motivated by being exposed to these demonic images. The holy fathers of the Church have many writings on “remembrance of death.”

Portrait is saying that our conscience should be telling us that there is a problem here. And I agree with him.

“He who lives in evil is punished in hell prematurely,
being pierced by the conscience.”
St. John of the Ladder

 

[pnewton]

The vandalism still occurs in many areas the evening before trick-or-treating which has become known as devil’s night.

FYI - Our rate in my county for vandalism on Halloween is no different than any other day. I have worked many Halloween nights and this just doesn’t happen. Friday and Saturday night show an increase, but Halloween is irrelevant as far as crime. The county fair has a significant impact though. Now that is a true evil!

 

[johnnyjones]

The vandalism still occurs in many areas the evening before trick-or-treating which has become known as devil’s night.

I think you misunderstand. There is an annual event that glamourizes occultic symbolism. The costumes seem to get more evil every year. The other day, I walked into a department store and there was a demon with dripping fangs, covered in blood with red glowing eyes staring at me. It was downright demonic! It’s everywhere! Houses are decorated like the passage to hell…and this is where the children go to get their candy. You may say that children are not joining Covens because of halloween…but I think you are missing the point. Whether you care to admit it or not…our children are being exposed and desensitized to demonic and occultic symbols and characters for at least one month out of every year. As I said earlier, “remembrance of death” is not motivated by being exposed to these demonic images. The holy fathers of the Church have many writings on “remembrance of death.”

Portrait is saying that our conscience should be telling us that there is a problem here. And I agree with him.

“He who lives in evil is punished in hell prematurely,
being pierced by the conscience.”
St. John of the Ladder

There is a lot more real evil in the world than some fake scary masks & costumes, it can be read about daily in your newspaper or seen on tv .We confront various evils every day. Masks give people a chill, they don’t lure you into the world of demons. Show me stats of people that have worn or seen a Halloween mask once a year then dove fullforce into the occult.

You should be frightened of scary things, they remind us to ultimately stay in the light. Pagan symbols are all around us, even on US money, are people falling apart because of it. Whats in your heart is what matters.

 

[crenfro]

It’s my husband and I’s 21st wedding anniversary. (…yes, we were married in the Catholic Church…)

We’re going on a road trip to visit dog kennels then go out to eat somewhere nice.

No long faced Christianity here allowed.

 

[johnnyjones]

It’s my husband and I’s 21st wedding anniversary. (…yes, we were married in the Catholic Church…)

We’re going on a road trip to visit dog kennels then go out to eat somewhere nice.

No long faced Christianity here allowed.

 

[EasterJoy]

The vandalism still occurs in many areas the evening before trick-or-treating which has become known as devil’s night.

I think you misunderstand. There is an annual event that glamourizes occultic symbolism. The costumes seem to get more evil every year. The other day, I walked into a department store and there was a demon with dripping fangs, covered in blood with red glowing eyes staring at me. It was downright demonic! It’s everywhere! Houses are decorated like the passage to hell…and this is where the children go to get their candy. You may say that children are not joining Covens because of halloween…but I think you are missing the point. Whether you care to admit it or not…our children are being exposed and desensitized to demonic and occultic symbols and characters for at least one month out of every year. As I said earlier, “remembrance of death” is not motivated by being exposed to these demonic images. The holy fathers of the Church have many writings on “remembrance of death.”

Portrait is saying that our conscience should be telling us that there is a problem here. And I agree with him.

“He who lives in evil is punished in hell prematurely,
being pierced by the conscience.”
St. John of the Ladder

No, I don’t think you understand. I don’t know about the East, but there isn’t any prohibition in the West against ghastly depictions of the devil or of imaginary monsters. They used to routinely carve them over and around the entrances of the great cathedrals, so apparently there was no fear of exposing children to them. Far from promoting an interest in the occult, the greatest harm such depictions ever did was to spread a fear of the evil that sometimes became irrational and got innocent people into harm’s way for the crime of looking suspicious. That is the tradition from which our vapid and vestigial Halloween sprang. Now it is you and Portrait who seem to be out on the witch hunt, since you are not content to take anyone else at their word that this event doesn’t mean to us what you fear it must mean to anyone who gets within a mile of it.

That is what this discussion has become…irrational. There are all sorts of warnings being tossed about, but in the general case they are not rooted in fact. I appreciate the fraternal charity in which I am sure your mutually zealous fear is rooted, or else I would have entirely lost my patience with both of you by now.

The vandalism does not get worse at Halloween. It may change to vandalizing decorations and smashing pumpkins instead of hitting mailboxes with baseball bats, but it does not get worse. Rather, trick-or-treating is going out of style because of some wild urban legends about ghoulish grown-ups putting razor blades and poison into candy. (Apparently, nobody knows enough of their neighbors any more to restrict their children’s begging to people they know and who know they are known.)

There is more hysteria and hand-wringing these days over things which carry a miniscule risk that sometimes it boggles my mind.

 

[Mickey]

They used to routinely carve them over and around the entrances of the great cathedrals, so apparently there was no fear of exposing children to them.

Are you referring to the medieval abomination of the gargoyle? If that is your apologetic for defending halloween…then we are in the area of absurdity now.

What are these fantastic monsters doing in the cloisters before the eyes of the brothers as they read? What is the meaning of these unclean monkeys, these strange savage lions, and monsters? To what purpose are here placed these creatures, half beast, half man, or these spotted tigers? I see several bodies with one head and several heads with one body. Here is a quadruped with a serpent’s head, there a fish with a quadruped’s head, then again an animal half horse, half goat… Surely if we do not blush for such absurdities, we should at least regret what we have spent on them.
St Bernard of Clairvaux

Now it is you and Portrait who seem to be out on the witch hunt, since you are not content to take anyone else at their word that this event doesn’t mean to us what you fear it must mean to anyone who gets within a mile of it.

I’m not sure what it means to you…but you have free will to do whatever pleases you.

There are all sorts of warnings being tossed about, but in the general case they are not rooted in fact.

LOL! If the Church Fathers were alive…you’d be getting many more and forceful warnings than what we have set forth.

The vandalism does not get worse at Halloween.

On devil’s night it does…in many places.

 

[EasterJoy]

Are you referring to the medieval abomination of the gargoyle? If that is your apologetic for defending halloween…then we are in the area of absurdity now.

Well, that is from the same pot that Halloween came from, and not some pagans trying to gain converts, which seems to have been the implication so far! Don’t ever tour the Vatican Museums; you will have a coronary right there. As for me, I think it would be a crime to get rid of them, just as it would be a crime to burn everything the pagans ever wrote. Really, why don’t we demolish the Parthenon while we’re at it? How can we tolerate a pagan temple, dedicated to a pagan goddess, right in our midst? Would you tolerate the Parthenon because it makes false religion beautiful, while rejecting art that dares to depict the ugliness of sin? Have we forgotten the spiritual danger of becoming “desensitized” to such a thing as glamourized falsehood? Truly, if we have to cleanse ourselves of everything that could remind us of evil or of the worship of the pagans, the Parthenon has got to go, and I don’t see any way around it. I speak tongue in cheek, but barely.

At any rate, I think the instance of the gargoyle pretty much establishes where our differences are. I don’t think a gargoyle on a cathedral is a threat, and I don’t think Halloween is, either. Put in those terms, it makes the whole argument absurd, indeed. I think most of us are going to be on one side of that question or the other, and that once the bottom line is seen in those terms, no amount of argument is going to change that.

 

[Mickey]

Well, that is from the same pot that Halloween came from, and not some pagans trying to gain converts, which seems to have been the implication so far!

Don’t you see that it does not matter where halloween came from? Our children are being desensitized to evil and demonic images. These macabre and demonic symbols and figures are being normalized for our children. It is an abomination and a tragedy.

Don’t ever tour the Vatican Museums;

There was much controversy in those days. Yes…it was a part of history. But you no longer hear explanations about trying to scare people to go to Church with gargoyles.

Really, why don’t we demolish the Parthenon while we’re at it?

Demolish? How dramatic. You can go on naming all the secular-built monuments in the world…but it’s not going to change the fact that modern day halloween in America is desensitizing generations of children to occultic and deminic symbols and characters.

At any rate, I think the instance of the gargoyle pretty much establishes where our differences are.

Indeed. I am happy that the Latin Church has discontinued the gargoyle architecture…

I don’t think a gargoyle on a cathedral is a threat,

I don’t know if I’d call it a threat…but many Latin priests at the time were not happy…some even referring to it as idolatry…and of course you read the words of St Bernard.

and I don’t think Halloween is, either.

Halloween is an abomination and a tragedy. I pray that those lurking on this thread will discontinue any participation in the demonic side of this American tragedy…and stay home to do vespers as a family on the evening of October 31…then Liturgy in the morning for All Saints day.

 

[Mickey]

There is a lot more real evil in the world than some fake scary masks & costumes, it can be read about daily in your newspaper or seen on tv .

There is no doubt that Satan has caused much grief…that is why he is called the “prince of this world.”

Masks give people a chill, they don’t lure you into the world of demons.

Be watchful, Satan is the “father of lies.”

Pagan symbols are all around us, even on US money

Most of us need money to survive and feed our families…and Christ told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. But He most certainly did not tell us to allow our children to dress up as demons and devils…or to be exposed to all sorts of occultic and demonic symbols every year under the guise of “harmless fun.” :nope:

 

[pnewton]

Halloween is an abomination and a tragedy. I pray that those lurking on this thread will discontinue any participation in the demonic side of this American tragedy…and stay home to do vespers as a family on the evening of October 31…then Liturgy in the morning for All Saints day.

I would rather that they turn to the Church and if they have doubts, consult their priest.

 

[Mickey]

I would rather that they turn to the Church and if they have doubts, consult their priest.

I am fairly certain that any priest is going to highly recommend vespers and Liturgy.

 

[pnewton]

I am fairly certain that any priest is going to highly recommend vespers and Liturgy.

I do not think Vespers, as that is not obligatory, but yes, one must make Mass. It is a Holy Day of Obligation after all. But none of this has to do with trick or treat. What you suggest is called a false dichotomy because one can both make Mass and still score some candy.

 

[Wildkit]

What a grand idea, my friend!

My wife was telling me…just tonight…that every October she gets sick to her stomach because people decorate there homes and places of business to resemble the gates of hell.

My young child shudders when I take her into a department store because there are demons with dripping fangs…skeletons covered with blood…and witches with oozing scars …filling every aisle.

What a great way to counteract this demonic witness!!!

My children are so paranoid for dressing as an angel, pumpkin and hobo. I don’t what to do! May our Lord bless your child when she runs out of the stores from all the evil and does get so upset. Yet I see some other children who somehow do not seem to behave/react in the same way. Maybe they take Halloween differently, as a goofy day? Yet if my daughter was so upset, what can one say?

 

[EasterJoy]

Don’t you see that it does not matter where halloween came from? Our children are being desensitized to evil and demonic images. These macabre and demonic symbols and figures are being normalized for our children. It is an abomination and a tragedy.
There was much controversy in those days. Yes…it was a part of history. But you no longer hear explanations about trying to scare people to go to Church with gargoyles.
Demolish? How dramatic. You can go on naming all the secular-built monuments in the world…but it’s not going to change the fact that modern day halloween in America is desensitizing generations of children to occultic and deminic symbols and characters.
Indeed. I am happy that the Latin Church has discontinued the gargoyle architecture…
I don’t know if I’d call it a threat…but many Latin priests at the time were not happy…some even referring to it as idolatry…and of course you read the words of St Bernard.
Halloween is an abomination and a tragedy. I pray that those lurking on this thread will discontinue any participation in the demonic side of this American tragedy…and stay home to do vespers as a family on the evening of October 31…then Liturgy in the morning for All Saints day.

Call me dramatic, if you like, but at the same time that modern-day American pagans are trying to get Halloween celebations thrown out of the schools because they prejudice students against witches and witchcraft, modern-day Greeks have begun worshipping at the old temples again:
guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/01/religion.uk

As for some of the Latin priests not being happy, there has never been a change in the Church that everybody in the Church was happy about, including some of the saints.

Throwing vespers into the discussion was a *total *non-sequitor…it is in no way precluded by trick-or-treating.

Well, have a good time, whatever you do…