Halloween?

[EasterJoy]

Have I been judging you? I have certainly been discoursing about my take on halloween. As a matter of fact, I have been consistently saying that you have free will to practice in what your conscience dictates. However, there is such a thing as righteous judgement.

“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment.” John 7:24

“The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.”
(Psa. 37:30)

“Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the Lord, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.”
(Amos 5:14-15)

“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?” (I Cor. 6:1-5)

Let’s just say that you seem to be going beyond demonstrating your position and over to implying that there really isn’t a legitimate alternative opinion to the judgement you espouse. So yes, that does kind of spread the feeling that you’re judging anyone who doesn’t do what you’re doing.

For instance:

“Halloween has an undercurrent of occultism and is absolutely anti-Christian.”
**Vatican liturgical expert Fr Joan Maria Canals **

Where there are anti-Christian aspects, they ought to be avoided, yes. If you’re saying that anything that is not overtly Christian must be avoided, though, that goes beyond what the Roman Cathlic Church teaches. (I do not know what the Eastern Churches teach.)

This is what I mean: the Western system of free trade has an undeniable undercurrent of greed and ethical relativism and secularism that is absolutely anti-Christian. That doesn’t mean free trade is anti-Christian, per se. It means that when engaging in free-trade commerce you have to be on the lookout that you do not fall into greed or compromise your ethics.

So why not just avoid free commerce? Why not just live in community and share like the first Christians? There is nothing wrong with doing that, it is even admirable, but it is not required. It is possible for someone in a religious community to demonstrate their reasons for being there in such unequivocal terms that they imply that anyone who is anywhere else is putting their soul in unnecessary danger. That would be going too far.

 

[Mickey]

Let’s just say that you seem to be going beyond demonstrating your position and over to implying that there really isn’t a legitimate alternative opinion to the judgement you espouse. So yes, that does kind of spread the feeling that you’re judging anyone who doesn’t do what you’re doing.

Perhaps it is merely your coscience.

 

[johnnyjones]

Thank you.
I do not know. I have met many solid Catholics on this forum who feel exactly as I do.
I must say…I respect them for their conviction on this issue.
Fundamentalist is not a bad word…but some people like to throw it around like an insult.

I have not said Fundamentalist is a “bad word”, just that I came from it. In addition Fundamentalism often greatly contrasts with the teachings of the church therefor it commonly can be used to state an opposing view to what is many times accepted by Catholicism…

 

[Mickey]

This is what I mean: the Western system of free trade has an undeniable undercurrent of greed and ethical relativism and secularism that is absolutely anti-Christian. That doesn’t mean free trade is anti-Christian, per se. It means that when engaging in free-trade commerce you have to be on the lookout that you do not fall into greed or compromise your ethics.

I think that analogy is apples and oranges.

 

[Mickey]

Dear Jharek,

I had been accused of unrighteous judgement. And since I have made it quite clear that each person will act according their conscience, I thought that perhaps the accusation was more a matter of conscience. I have always wondered why there is such a vehement defense of halloween on the forum.

 

[DarkLight]

Dear Jharek,

I had been accused of unrighteous judgement. And since I have made it quite clear that each person will act according their conscience, I thought that perhaps the accusation was more a matter of conscience. I have always wondered why there is such a vehement defense of halloween on the forum.

I suspect most people would react strongly to being accused of participating in demonic activity, especially if they’ve already examined the arguments and decided otherwise.

 

[EasterJoy]

Dear Jharek,

I had been accused of unrighteous judgement. And since I have made it quite clear that each person will act according their conscience, I thought that perhaps the accusation was more a matter of conscience. I have always wondered why there is such a vehement defense of halloween on the forum.

I said I felt as if you were judging those who didn’t have the same opinion as you do, and the charges–fraternity with demons–are very serious. This, even though you’ve carefully had nothing to do with Halloween in your life and you have had many assurances from those who have that it is possible to celebrate Halloween without doing anything of the sort!

So how is it that when you raise a question with me, you are only asking me to examine my conscience, but if someone raises a question with you, it is an accusation against you? You *appear *to be employing a double standard, one in which you are performing a service to righteousness by shining a light on the conscience of others, but your own conscience is beyond reproach and any questions of it elicit indignation.

If that appearance does not concern you, if it does not concern you that others feel attacked by the way you post, well, follow your conscience.

 

[Mickey]

I suspect most people would react strongly to being accused of participating in demonic activity, especially if they’ve already examined the arguments and decided otherwise.

And yet no accusation was made. Do I believe it is demonic for me and my family to participate?..Yes. I do not know hearts and I cannot accuse you or anyone else. I can only accuse myself. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

[Mickey]

you have had many assurances from those who have that it is possible to celebrate Halloween without doing anything of the sort!

Again…that would be a matter of conscience. In the East we have a spiritual father. We are obedient to our spiritual fathers on issues such as these.

So how is it that when you raise a question with me, you are only asking me to examine my conscience, but if someone raises a question with you, it is an accusation against you?

I have not accused you. And yet you accuse me…hmmmm?

You *appear *to be employing a double standard

Funny. I thought it was you employing the double standard.

one in which you are performing a service to righteousness by shining a light on the conscience of others,

Your conscience is between you and God.

if it does not concern you that others feel attacked by the way you post, well, follow your conscience.

I think that perhaps you are the only one who feels attacked. There are many on this forum who feel as I do. My conscience is secure in knowing that I do not participate in this event in any form. You will follow your own conscience.

 

[DarkLight]

And yet no accusation was made. Do I believe it is demonic for me and my family to participate?..Yes. I do not know hearts and I cannot accuse you or anyone else. I can only accuse myself. Let your conscience be your guide.

When you say that you believe it is demonic without qualification…yes, what I hear and I think what most people hear is an accusation. If you believe it is demonic, then you believe that if I participate I am participating in something demonic. That is an accusation.

 

[TrixieMcGee]

When you say that you believe it is demonic without qualification…yes, what I hear and I think what most people hear is an accusation. If you believe it is demonic, then you believe that if I participate I am participating in something demonic. That is an accusation.

This. I understand if someone doesn’t want to participate in Halloween, but plenty of us have thought it through and come to a very different conclusion. The way he words things, makes it sound like they think that if we celebrate Halloween we are somehow going against our conscience or are doing demonic things. Not true.

 

[EasterJoy]

Again…that would be a matter of conscience. In the East we have a spiritual father. We are obedient to our spiritual fathers on issues such as these…

Oh, well, we’re good then. We have spiritual fathers in the West, too, and there is no prohibition on Halloween celebrations in our archdiocese. As far as I know, there never has been. In fact, our parish priest of 35 years used to decorate the parish house with cobwebs and jack-o-lanterns and such, because the parish kids enjoyed coming for their trick-or-treats with such great decorations.

 

[Mickey]

When you say that you believe it is demonic without qualification…

Without qualification? I have quoted an Orthodox saint…an Orthodox clergy…a Latin Catholic clergy…a bunch of Scripture…and I have relayed some of my thoughts and experiences on this subject. I’m not sure what other qualification you are looking for. That being said, I have continuously posted that you have free will for however you wish to recognize this annual event. If you feel accused by my posts, it was not my intention. This is a debate forum. There are those who enjoy every aspect of halloweeen…and there are those who do not. Each side has their reasons. No one should feel accused. And no one should be accused of rendering unrighteous judgment.

If you believe it is demonic, then you believe that if I participate I am participating in something demonic.

I am sorry that some people feel convicted by my stance on halloween. I truly believe that participation in this secular event is demonic and anti-Christian. Obviously, I cannot say that I believe it is anti-Christian, and then turn around and say that I think it is okay for others to participate. But at the same time, I cannot judge you as a person…and I cannot force you to discard halloween. You will notice that Fr Canals from the Vatican called halloween, “anti-Christian.” This caused quite a controversy in America in 2009. And yet we did not see Pope Benedict come out and retract (or soften) the statement. Some people will say that Rome has not taken an official stance on halloween, therefore it is okay to do as you please. This is an argument from silence. Rome does not take a stance on every aspect of Roman Catholic life. Some things are obvious for what they are.

 

[Mickey]

In fact, our parish priest of 35 years used to decorate the parish house with cobwebs and jack-o-lanterns and such, because the parish kids enjoyed coming for their trick-or-treats with such great decorations.

Really? Interesting. Is he your spiritual father?

 

[DarkLight]

Without qualification? I have quoted an Orthodox saint…an Orthodox clergy…a Latin Catholic clergy…a bunch of Scripture…and I have relayed some of my thoughts and experiences on this subject. I’m not sure what other qualification you are looking for. That being said, I have continuously posted that you have free will for however you wish to recognize this annual event. If you feel accused by my posts, it was not my intention. This is a debate forum. There are those who enjoy every aspect of halloweeen…and there are those who do not. Each side has their reasons. No one should feel accused. And no one should be accused of rendering unrighteous judgment.

I wasn’t talking about your qualifications! A statement “without qualification” is one that’s put forward as “this is how it is for everyone and everything.” So if I said “I feel that every woman should be married” that would be an unqualified statement; if I said “I think many women should be married, but not all” that would be a qualified statement."

I am sorry that some people feel convicted by my stance on halloween. I truly believe that participation in this secular event is demonic and anti-Christian. Obviously, I cannot say that I believe it is anti-Christian, and then turn around and say that I think it is okay for others to participate. But at the same time, I cannot judge you as a person…and I cannot force you to discard halloween. You will notice that Fr Canals from the Vatican called halloween, “anti-Christian.” This caused quite a controversy in America in 2009. And yet we did not see Pope Benedict come out and retract (or soften) the statement. Some people will say that Rome has not taken an official stance on halloween, therefore it is okay to do as you please. This is an argument from silence. Rome does not take a stance on every aspect of Roman Catholic life. Some things are obvious for what they are.

The highlighted statement - this is why people feel attacked. Convicted? Really? Why would you assume that?

 

[johnnyjones]

Dear Jharek,

I had been accused of unrighteous judgement. And since I have made it quite clear that each person will act according their conscience, I thought that perhaps the accusation was more a matter of conscience. I have always wondered why there is such a vehement defense of halloween on the forum.

You going into heavy drama by saying you were “accused of unrighteous judgement”. You were simply being shown by myself and others that Halloween can be celebrated by Catholics and the reasons why that is so.

 

[johnnyjones]

Really? Interesting. Is he your spiritual father?

Is a Catholic apologist nothing? I’m sure you can get some support for Halloween being a non celebratory event by those of the Catholic church but I could fill this page with many who feel otherwise.

If you have some definitive statements that Halloween should be banned by church parishoners, put it out there. Again. I have no problem with your position, Like I said earlier I was hoping to have a friendly dialogue about the pros and cons of Halloween. Not an absoluteness of one poster over the other which you seem dead set on

 

[TrixieMcGee]

I wasn’t talking about your qualifications! A statement “without qualification” is one that’s put forward as “this is how it is for everyone and everything.” So if I said “I feel that every woman should be married” that would be an unqualified statement; if I said “I think many women should be married, but not all” that would be a qualified statement."

The highlighted statement - this is why people feel attacked. Convicted? Really? Why would you assume that?

Precisely. Making assumptions about the inner feelings of others. His statements sure don’t make me feel convicted in any way. Maybe a little offended that someone would make such extreme statements like he has, but surely not convicted. I enjoy Halloween and in a very non-demonic way. If dressing up as a train conductor and giving children candy is demonic, then I have bigger problems than Halloween.

 

[Mickey]

The highlighted statement - this is why people feel attacked. Convicted? Really? Why would you assume that?

Uh…because you are complaining about feeling attacked?

 

[Mickey]

A statement “without qualification” is one that’s put forward as “this is how it is for everyone and everything.”

Well…as I have said…there are saints and clergy who say that halloween is anti-Christian. They give their reasons. And I believe it.