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inJESUS
Guest
what yu are quoting is GNOSTIC interpretation of Jesus’ crucifixion based on GNOSTIC texts written in the fouth century.
to answer your question : they **KNOW **because they SAW.
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to answer your question : they **KNOW **because they SAW.
B
Booklover
Guest
Hamba, you’re doing it again! Have you lost your powers of reasoning? Quoting from the Quran will do no good, since we do not accept what the Quran states!
Vickie
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may be believe. John 19.35.
Btw St.John’s is dating c. 90. The earliest near complete MS (P 66) is around 60 years later, a fragment (P52) even earlier.
Iranaeus writes of the Gospel of John, St. Iranaeus was the disciple of St. Polycarp, who was the disciple of St. John. Numerous ancient writings attest to the soundness of this “isnad.”
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Practice makes perfect. Or in this case, miraculous it seems.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
yes, divine transcript versus divine hearsay.
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inJESUS
Guest
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
And not every claim to be believed, and as I said that this is a falling claim, that he said to attract the people of the book, but it is not true, for this man became a Muslim very after the Prophet went to Medina, and there were many Suras that were written before him, so to say that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) doesn’t know except what he wrote is a very clear lie, besides there many were other scribes and reciters for the Quran before and after that man, the hadiths say that he was only reciting the 2 Suras, i.e., he was taught them, the man’s claim has no meaning except that he said so to deceive the people of the book.
It seems that you don’t know that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) partially, not once, a part of Al Imran which was talking about Uhud this was in the 3rd year after Hijra, but the part talking about the Christians was revealed in the 9th year after Hijra, when the Christians of Najran paid the Jizya, as the Jizya was sanctioned very late. Besides, Muslims didn’t kill that guy, so it seems that this was before the order of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) to kill the apostates.
Really, and was this the way to please him? The challenge has been present already before in other Suras. I see that you are only following your ego and try to convince yourself with a fool claim only because you hate Islam.
Wrong, you were trying to give impression that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was taught about Issa and Mariam(Peace be upon them) from that guy, but the case is that if you read the story in the 2 Suras, you will find that most of the issue in Al Imran was mentioned in Mariam.
Oh babe! what did brutal Muslims do for you?
So you are an atheist, who worships matter and believes that his ancestor was an animal, I don’t know really what to say.
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hamba2han
Guest
The fact that there exist different gnostic texts regarding this alleged crucifixion is itself confirmation that there is considerable doubt regarding what people thought they saw.
If there is absolutely no doubt, then there would not be any conflicting gnostic texts whatsoever regarding the crucifixion.
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
Everyone of us see that his religion is the right one, so we have to discuss, if you are not keen on saving non-Christians, that’s your opinion, but I see it is my duty that people must be saved from hell.As I have observed, Rodrigo Bivar is if nothing else honorable with respect to discussing the differences in faith systems though he is a proclaimed atheist (though I wishe he would note it on the profile)
The very tenets of Islam is a description of my (Catholic) belief that is offensive. I have never gone to an Islamic site to convince Mohammedeans they are wrong much like the many who come here to preach.
This is because you misunderstand why we say this, it is because we believe that the Bible was subjected to lots of interpolation, although it wasn’t all interpolated, so God sent the Quran as the final pure message, and so it became a reference on judging the Bible.
Really? It seems that you don’t read your Bible:
Deu 20:10 When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee. Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: Deu 20:13 and when Jehovah thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: Deu 20:14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which Jehovah thy God hath given thee. Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these peoples, that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth; Deu 20:17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee;
Why did your God order His people with this?
Deu 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thy heart, dost thou go in to possess their land; **but for the wickedness of these nations **Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may establish the word which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
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inJESUS
Guest
nop. the doubt is NOT about what people saw. People saw JESUS, not someone else and the gnostic texts agree
what the gnostics teach is that the “spirit of the Messiah” left Jesus and Jesus the man (that is, his appearance) was crucified. No gnostic text says it was someone else.No gnostic text says people were hallucinating. Notext says they did not see a crucifixion. The *appearance *the quran talks about is a gnostic expression that talks about Jesus himself, not someone else.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Incorrect. You assume that because there were other surahs written that the man could not have written al-Baqarah and al-Imran. That is false.
You also assume that because he ‘recited’ al-Baraqa and al-Imran he didn’t write them. Writing and reciting are 2 different activities.
What happened is that he wrote them and also recited them.
It is very clear when he said, “Muhammad knows nothing except what I wrote for him.”
ibn taymiya:
Sure - it goes to show that the man did not write the entire surah and that Muhammad later added to al-Imran.
The only reason the Muslims didn’t kill the guy was because he ran away.
ibn taymiya:
So he was under the employ of Muhammad. Isn’t he going to ‘add things’ to please his boss?
Don’t forget that when he was writing those surahs - he was in on the fraud and was trying to fool people that the surahs came from Muhammad. Later when he ran away - he could tell the truth.
cont.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
ibn taymiya:
We do know that there were other people who taught Muhammad about Christianity - including Waraqa and others like these people:
Ibn Ishaq page 180: "According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say “The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami.” Then God revealed in reference to their words “We well know that they say, “Only a mortal teaches him”.” The tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, and this is a clear Arabic tongue.
injil.de/Main/Silas/saifdebate2.htm
Waqidi [d. 207 AH D/823 CE] who says that a Christian slave named Ibn Qumta was the amanuensis of the prophet, along with a certain ‘Abdallah b. Sa‘ad b. Abi Sarh, who reported that “It was only a Christian slave who was teaching him [Mohammed]; I used to write to him and change whatever I wanted.” 6
debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html
[Those who talked to Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, were Abu Haritha Ibn
They also argue for saying that he is Son of Allah by saying he had no known father and spoke in infancy which is something never done by any human being. They use as evidence for their claim that He is the third of three * the argument that Allah says: We did, We commanded, We created and We judged , and whereas if He was one, He would say: I did, I judged, I commanded and I created; but it is He, Jesus and Maryam. The Qur’an was revealed addressing all these arguments.[27] Ref: Abu Muhammad
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/MuhBible.html*
ibn taymiya:
ibn taymiya:
No. Read what I said - it is consistent that a Christian scribe should write about Christianity in the Quran.
We do know that there were other people who taught Muhammad about Christianity - including Waraqa and others like these people:
Ibn Ishaq page 180: "According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say “The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami.” Then God revealed in reference to their words “We well know that they say, “Only a mortal teaches him”.” The tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, and this is a clear Arabic tongue.
injil.de/Main/Silas/saifdebate2.htm
Waqidi [d. 207 AH D/823 CE] who says that a Christian slave named Ibn Qumta was the amanuensis of the prophet, along with a certain ‘Abdallah b. Sa‘ad b. Abi Sarh, who reported that “It was only a Christian slave who was teaching him [Mohammed]; I used to write to him and change whatever I wanted.” 6
debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html
[Those who talked to Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, were Abu Haritha Ibn
Alqama, Al-Aqib Abdul-Masih and Al-Ayham al-Said.] They were Christians according to the faith of the king with differences between them; they say: He is Allah, and say: He is Son of Allah, and say: He is the third of three * and these are the claims of Christianity. [They use as evidence for their claim that He is Allah the argument that] he used to raise the dead, cure the sick, create from clay bird-like structure then breathe into it to make it a [living] bird. All this was by the leave of Allah, the Praiseworthy the Exalted {to appoint him as a sign for men} (Maryam:21).They also argue for saying that he is Son of Allah by saying he had no known father and spoke in infancy which is something never done by any human being. They use as evidence for their claim that He is the third of three * the argument that Allah says: We did, We commanded, We created and We judged , and whereas if He was one, He would say: I did, I judged, I commanded and I created; but it is He, Jesus and Maryam. The Qur’an was revealed addressing all these arguments.[27] Ref: Abu Muhammad
Abd al-Malik Ibn Hisham al-Maafiri, Al-Sirah Al-Nabawiyyah, 1998, Volume II, Dar al-Hadith: Cairo (Egypt), pp. 181-182; also A. Guillaume, The Life Of Muhammad: A Translation Of Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, 1998 (13th impression), Oxford University Press: Karachi (Pakistan), pp. 271-272.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/MuhBible.html*
ibn taymiya:
They persecuted some of my relatives for centuries.Oh babe! what did brutal Muslims do for you?
ibn taymiya:
I don’t really know what to say about someone who worships a black rock and believes in jinns and that his ancestors were 60 cubits tall and that Muhammad went to heaven on a flying *** with the face of a woman. So what’s your point except to cast insults? You’ll find you have more to insult than I have.*
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Verisimilitude
Guest
You misunderstand my faith at the most basic level because of a deception played upon a People in 7th Century Arabia that now has 1400 years of misguided tradition.
Does everyone allow the free expression of everyone else to leave and change ones faith or religion, as their understanding of Truth leads them? without being publicly harassed or killed everywhere in the world?
I assume you are Sunni Muslim. A happy slave to god. Do you know how much allah loves his slaves-you?
What would you say if I told you, you are already saved from hell, just as every person on the planet is; so you can stop with your ill-advised duty as it is fruit from a rotten tree? The gates of hell have been broken, didn’t you know?
I think I understand very well why you say that. Everything you will ever say is based upon one man- Mohamed. I reject Mohamed as a legitimate authority on anything and everything, except the possible insight to the Tempter of the desert 600 years earlier.
What connection did Mohamed share with all past Jewish prophets and Jewish God?
You have just solved the modern Israeli/Palestinian ‘problem’ if you believe that verse. I assume you do since you are quoting it to make a point. God gave it to the Jews, and they earned it almost 3000 years ago. God is eternal and so is his Word. Until Mohamed came along that is.
A knowledgeable Jew would better serve to answer the why, but in short…you believe an illiterate mans version of why so you will never agree to anything that conflicts with that. Pity.
Not your God too? Are you not of His people? Or have they been abrogated and forgotten and a new people- you Muslims- taken their Chosen status?
Is that Islam’s justification to spread allahs word by war, because God did it for the Jews at that time? Nothing in Deuteronomy suggests that kind of expansion was to go beyond the land given to them.
***Deuteronomy 30 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. ***
See, God is speaking to you through that verse right now. 3000 year old prophecy realized in your own life. Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
Why is it false?
What are you saying? When he recites them clearly means that he was taught them, he became a Muslim and was taught Al Baqarah and Al Imran and wrote for Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), the hadith clearly says that. When he makes a claim, he must give evidence to prove his claim, but it clearly appears that he was fooling the people of the book and no Muslim believed him.
So please don’t try to jump on silly conclusions saying that he wrote them for Muhammad (Peace be upon him), actually his claim is apparently falling, I don’t know what you are arguing about.
If he really ran away, why didn’t Muslims trace him? And is it coincidence that he died at that particular time? It’s very clear that this is a Heavenly punishment from God, may be you are an atheist and don’t understand this much, but this is what we believe.
High imagination as usual, and why would Muhammad (Peace be upon him) need him to write Suras if previous Suras were revealed before? If this was the case, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) won’t need that man.
Well, the Quran clearly answered this claim:
103. And indeed WE know that they say that it is only a man who teaches him. But the tongue of him towards whom their minds is inclined in making this insinuation is foreign while this is Arabic tongue plain and clear.
And as for Waraqa, there is no account that he met him except at the beginning of revelation. But to say that they sat with him and told him about Christianity, this is a claim with no evidence, especially that the Holy Quran doesn’t talk only about Christianity, but about many other subjects, so you are supposed to tell who told him about stories of other prophets including non Israelites and different laws in marriage, divorce, heritage, economics,…etc. To say that because he was sitting with a Christian guy, so it must be the case that this guy taught him about Christianity, it is a claim without evidence. And even if this happened, this is not an evidence that he wrote the Quran from what he heard.
Really?Where?
First of all, we don’t worship the Black Stone, this is a lie. As for the other things you mentioned, these are all from the unseen, and there is no evidence to refute them.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
He said he wrote them. Reciting is another thing altogether. You can recite what you wrote.
This is what he wrote: ‘Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him’
How much more explicit can he be?
ibn taymiya:
He said he wrote for Muhammad. This is what Bukhari wrote:
‘Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him’.
ibn taymiya:
This is what the hadith says, ‘He ran away as a rebel and joined the People of the Book.’
This means he was removed from the Muslims - you have no knowledge of where he ran away to.
You also have no idea when he died because the Muslim hadith says, “Time rolled on that Allah caused his death.”
TIME ROLLED ON - it could have been years.
ibn taymiya:
Sure because Muhammad was too intellectually challenged to learn to write for himself to the requisite level - hence he had to rely on scribes. Apparently he had many scribes - this Christian scribes was only one of many.
The Bukhari hadith says he wrote al-Baraqah and al-Imran for Muhammad. That much is clear. I don’t care if he got other scribes to write other surahs.
ibn taymiya:
Read the quote I gave above - this verse was made in relation to Jabr.
Ibn Ishaq page 180: "According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say “The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami.” Then God revealed in reference to their words “We well know that they say, “Only a mortal teaches him”.” The tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, and this is a clear Arabic tongue.
injil.de/Main/Silas/saifdebate2.htm
It was clear the Meccans were accusing Muhammad of plagiarising the tales of old from Jabr and he had to make up a verse to deflect that criticism.
In fact, Muhammad cheated - nobody is saying Jabr told him the surahs in classical Arabic. They were obviously able to converse. Jabr taught him the basics of Christianity which Muhammad then plagiarised into Arabic.
cont.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
ibn taymiya:
It is clear from the hadiths that Muhammad learnt bits and pieces of Christianity from many people, including Jabr, Waraqa and at least 3 Christians. He got many things wrong though - including the apocrypha in the Quran - which is a telltale sign that he made up the Quran himself, with some help from his ‘friends’.
ibn taymiya:
ibn taymiya:
You do so worship the black rock - bending your posterior in the air, chanting mumbo-jumbo, circumambulating it, kissing it sure looks like worship to me.
Hasta luego
Rodrigo
Waraqa was a Christian who had much to do with Muhammad in the early days of his supposed ‘revelations’. It is clear that Waraqa could have taught Muhammad the fundamentals of Christianity. Hence you were wrong to assert that I implied that Muhammad learned Christianity from this unnamed Christian scribe.
It is clear from the hadiths that Muhammad learnt bits and pieces of Christianity from many people, including Jabr, Waraqa and at least 3 Christians. He got many things wrong though - including the apocrypha in the Quran - which is a telltale sign that he made up the Quran himself, with some help from his ‘friends’.
ibn taymiya:
None of your business.
ibn taymiya:
If you are silly enough to believe in jinns which you have absolutely zero evidence for, please don’t malign my belief in evolution which has truck-loads of evidence to support it.
You do so worship the black rock - bending your posterior in the air, chanting mumbo-jumbo, circumambulating it, kissing it sure looks like worship to me.
Hasta luego
Rodrigo
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
I am here to conversate, and if I have any misconceptions, please clarify them for me. As for Jihad, and why it was sanctioned, click here
Is this the way you preach your religion? What an attractive way!
I see the interpolations in the Bible very clearly, I have no doubt in them. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) shared with all prophets (Peace be upon them) before him that they were all sent by God.
God gave it to the Jews when they were believers, but when they broke God’s covenant, they no longer have any right in it. But we are talking here about your faith sanctioning killing the disbelievers, so you can’t object on Islam, isn’t God’s word eternal?
I don’t know if my God sanctioned this for the Jews or not, if He really did, then He is my God who was talking in that verse, otherwise, it’s an interpolation.
Weren’t you still saying that God’s word is eternal?
This was because Judaism wasn’t universal, while Islam was.
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
I will answer you later rodrigo.
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Montalban
Guest
Jihad means struggle, not ‘war’, however war is a legitimate form for jihad.
Moslems believe that any ‘insult’ against Islam is an attack on it, and can be met with jihad.
Thus this forum itself, which produces criticism of Islam is seen as a threat. Such discussion would not be tolerated in public in Moslem nations.
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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
Did you see me denying that he said so? I didn’t, this is a claim with no evidence. But the truth is what Anas bin Malik narrated that he recited Al Baqarah and Al Imran which means that he was taught, and if he wrote them, then he wrote them after he was taught, the hadith clearly says that he recited, and many Suras were written before him, so his claim is falling when he says that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) don’t know except what he wrote for him, your reply that this was false and incorrect, I asked you: why? you didn’t answer me. You are only following a claim without evidence.
Well, if Muslims didn’t trace him, and time rolled on, this means that Muslims ignored him, now is it logical that after Muslims ignored him throughout this time that they come and take him out of his tomb and leave him? Don’t you see this a bit weird?
And if he was really surrounded with scribes, that each scribe writes a Sura for him, wouldn’t something like that be well known? The scribes used to write the revelation AFTER God sent it, not the opposite. And if that Christian guy really wrote Al Imran, will he write the whole Sura and leave the most important part talking about Christianity. Still I see high imagination.
If we assumed that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) took the concept from that guy, still the rhetorical way in writing them was miraculous, that the Arabs couldn’t meet the challenge, although they were famously known to be very rhetorical, you will try to give me that hadith about that Christian and his fool claim, I will go with you although I clearly see that you have no point in it, and I have already proved this, if that Christian made these Suras, and if other scribes made other Suras, couldn’t the Arab pagans answer the challenge? They already had very rhetorical people, and the Arab literature clearly testify this, and they were much more powerful than Muhammad (Peace be upon him) for more than 13 years, and if they were able to meet that challenge which God kept on challenging them with, they would have done as soon as possible, and it would have been destroying Islam, especially that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn’t have any power at that time, but we find that they couldn’t, and they never can. This itself is a clear proof that Quran was really sent by God.
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