Hand Clapping During Mass

[msproule]

Traditional Ang:

The GIRM prescribes handclapping or applause when:
New Christians are Baptized,
Catholics are Confirmed,
Couples are Married in the Church,
Deacons or Priests are Ordained,
Bishops are Consecrated or Installed (also applies to a Pope),
Churches or Alters are Consecrated for Use, and
Congregations are Accepted into the Church.

Could you please provide specific paragraphs in the GIRM that support this list? I have looked through it but do not recall reading such prescriptions. Thanks!

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

We gather together as a community to **celebrate **the Mass.

Yes, and the word celebrate intends a coming together, not sentimentalism.

Not every aspect of the mass is solemn. That’s why the music is joyous at some parts, uplifting at others, reflective in still others.

A different subject. BTW, there are plenty of words from Rome about the misuse of music in the mass today.

There is a clear opening and closing sequence which is intended to foster communion with the person next to you, we are not just there alone - you and Jesus, me and Jesus - it’s Jesus and us as one…until the Liturgy of the Eucharist when it becomes very private and personal. All rituals and music are designed around preserving that intimate time with each of us and our Lord. But then the Mass moves on to the closing where we receive blessing and we say goodbye to our fellow Catholics who asked for our prayers and support not 30 minutes earlier - until we meet again next week (hopefully sooner).

What does any of this have to do with clapping or a lack of respect for what the mass is?

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

you and the others who are complaining about clapping during mass and some of these other minor issues are, by complaining, not being observant of Church teachings or displaying public loyalty and authentic submission to the authority in Rome,

What evidence do you have one must submit to the idea of clapping during the Holy Sacrifice of the mass as an issue that is binding on the faithful at a normal Sunday mass? Where has She said we must clap for the choir, or girl scouts, or a married couple, etc?

This is an issue of prudence. We must be careful not to worship the clergy as gods, or of a hyper clericalism. The faithful do not make a solemn promise or a vow as priests do. That does not mean we are free to disregard our priests and bishops, but it also does not mean every single utterance must be taken as gospel as if be are bound under pain of sin. Let us be reasonable and not impose things Mother Church does not impose.

especially when you choose to avoid Masses which have such authorized and approved ‘minor issues’ being practiced.

Where have I stated such a thing?

 

[fix]

msproule:

YinYangMom,

Please recall that in my situation, it does happen at every Mass. At least, every Mass for which one of the faithful has a birthday. I would estimate that it happens about 90% of the time. This past Sunday it also happened after Father deferred the homily to a woman who spoke about something completely unrelated (I do not even recall what she said). Needless to say, she got a generous round of applause.

My ridiculous situation aside, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Of course I know you are not advocating that it be allowed for every situation. I think you made that clear in posts #55 and #68. However, if it is allowed “sometimes”, then why not allow it “all the time”? What are the criteria under which it should be condoned or forbidden?

Like hand holding, it should be optional. Therefore, though I lack any authority I suggest we postpone the applause until after the blessing and dismissal. In so doing, those who are uncomfortable need not feel pressured into obligatory participation. If those being honored are offended by those who choose to depart, then the focus was never in the right place to begin with.

Such common sense and wisdom should be listened to more often.

 

[fix]

YinYangMom:

We gather together as a community to **celebrate **the Mass.
Not every aspect of the mass is solemn. That’s why the music is joyous at some parts, uplifting at others, reflective in still others.
There is a clear opening and closing sequence which is intended to foster communion with the person next to you, we are not just there alone - you and Jesus, me and Jesus - it’s Jesus and us as one…until the Liturgy of the Eucharist when it becomes very private and personal. All rituals and music are designed around preserving that intimate time with each of us and our Lord. But then the Mass moves on to the closing where we receive blessing and we say goodbye to our fellow Catholics who asked for our prayers and support not 30 minutes earlier - until we meet again next week (hopefully sooner).

After rereading this I want to ask a question without veering too far off topic. Can you provide a citation that can show me where the coroporate worship of the Church intends mere horizontal worship, exclusively or predominately, at any point in the mass?

When are we to take our focus off of God and only focus on us? The phrases Jesus and me versus Jesus and we I find are terrible misused and often an attempt to introduce a notion not understood by the fathers of VII. I may be wrong and seek guidance. Thanks.

 

[buffalo]

maryj:

I’m clapping again!!!

Out of respect?

 

[YinYangMom]

msproule:

YinYangMom,

Please recall that in my situation, it does happen at every Mass. At least, every Mass for which one of the faithful has a birthday. I would estimate that it happens about 90% of the time. This past Sunday it also happened after Father deferred the homily to a woman who spoke about something completely unrelated (I do not even recall what she said). Needless to say, she got a generous round of applause.

My ridiculous situation aside, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Of course I know you are not advocating that it be allowed for every situation. I think you made that clear in posts #55 and #68. However, if it is allowed “sometimes”, then why not allow it “all the time”? What are the criteria under which it should be condoned or forbidden?

Like hand holding, it should be optional. Therefore, though I lack any authority I suggest we postpone the applause until after the blessing and dismissal. In so doing, those who are uncomfortable need not feel pressured into obligatory participation. If those being honored are offended by those who choose to depart, then the focus was never in the right place to begin with.

Oh, ok. As to why not and under which conditions, that is up to the presiding pastor and his boss, the bishop.

You know, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone called up for recognition who really felt comfortable about it Which just goes to show how Catholic they really are, humility and all. It’s always an awkward situation to be recognized publicly. Though I do know a few people who really thrive off it, to the extent that if no one comments they invite comments. But they are the exception.

Anyway, I wasn’t suggesting those being honored would be offended to look into the congregation and notice some people not clapping since they pretty much are uncomfortable being up there in the first place. I think my point was one of etiquette and obedience. When the priest asks all in the congregation to applaud it just is against etiquette and disobedient not to comply regardless of whether or not anyone takes offense…the offense still occurs.

 

[buffalo]

(Note: I planned to post this about 100 posts ago, but my internet connection was down. Boy this thread sure got heated, as if it wasn’t hot enough already. It’s good to see the level of Christian charity returning. Thank you moderators for your good work.)

Here is what I see we have in common here. I believe we all agree that applause during certain times of the mass is inappropriate. We also agree that applause for something not related to say, someone’s ministry or Christian witness is also inappropriate. I think that’s safe to say. But aside from these points, I see two main camps on this thread.

One which has a belief that any, and if I read it correctly, ANY, clapping at anytime during the mass is sacrilegious.

The other has a belief that honoring our (future) saints on earth who humbly accept our appreciation for their Christian witness is acceptable, and while doing so, hopefully inspiring others to step up and make God a bigger part of their lives than just 60 minutes on Sunday. A brief announcement with a simple sign of approval from the parish is found to be acceptable with the bishop of my diocese (and the GIRM), and at a time during the mass documented to be appropriate for these brief announcements.

It should be obvious that I am in the second camp on this.

Now as Catholics we honor our Blessed Mother and the saints in heaven during the mass, and do you think that God is upset by this? Of course not, Jesus honored his mother and is pleased that we do the same, be it during the mass or otherwise. What is wrong with the Body of Christ honoring one or some of its humble servants? Is God displeased with this? Are we taking our focus away from God? Is God saying “hey you, stop recognizing their accomplishments in My Name; look at Me and only Me.” You know, in my humble opinion, I just don’t think so.

For those of you in the first camp, I don’t agree with your defense of your position (which you are entitled to have). I have to believe that God doesn’t look at our recognition of his faithful servants as sacrilegious or “bad.” I believe that honoring members of the Body of Christ during an appropriate part of the mass is pleasing to God. I believe God is smiling upon us, the Body of Christ; and maybe even clapping himself.

Sincerely and in Christ,

SG257

PS, I hope I represented both sides fairly.

PPS, until the GIRM is changed on this and/or my Bishop decides to give us different direction, I have to follow his lead, don’t I?

RS speaks about certan abuses having to cease immediately to avoid the “force of custom”. Clapping at Mass in the US has not been customary until the last 30-40 years.

I believe what the two camps represent is one of custom. If Rome does not reprobate the practice the “force of custom” will have been achieved. If they do reprobate, it will be a call to not allow the “force of custom” .

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

After rereading this I want to ask a question without veering too far off topic. Can you provide a citation that can show me where the coroporate worship of the Church intends mere horizontal worship, exclusively or predominately, at any point in the mass?

When are we to take our focus off of God and only focus on us? The phrases Jesus and me versus Jesus and we I find are terrible misused and often an attempt to introduce a notion not understood by the fathers of VII. I may be wrong and seek guidance. Thanks.

Fix, I think you are off topic and my response is off topic. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. Mass is not a private devotion conducted in union with other attendees but a public communal worship. Personally, the current practice of starting horizontally (Introductory Rite and Confiteor are very horizontal) and gradually moving vertical with the Liturgy of the Word, climaxing in the Liturgy of the Eucharist as exclusively vertical, and with the Concluding Rite that is a call to look horizontal as we go forth to live and spread the Good News makes the Mass beautiful and complete and true public worship.

This is essentially how my Pastor explains the movement of the Mass to the RCIA class.

As laity, we are called to first bring ourselves fully body, mind and soul to Mass to completely experience Christ through the Priest as celebrant, through the Living Word in the Gospel and Homily, through our fellow worshippers in the Confiteor and Sign of Peace and finally in His preeminent Presence in the Eucharist.

IMHO, to water down any of these experiences diminishes the effectiveness of the Mass and the Graces we obtain when we come to Mass. If it was just about vertical worship, Perpetual Private Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament would be the ultimate expression of ourselves as Catholics. But it is not. The public communal Mass is the ultimate expression and it depends on the full spiritual and physical participation of everyone.

P.S. Pardon this campaign announcement but there is a poll being conducted on the subject of this thread. Please vote.

 

[fix]

Orionthehunter:

As laity, we are called to first bring ourselves fully body, mind and soul to Mass to completely experience Christ through the Priest as celebrant, through the Living Word in the Gospel and Homily, through our fellow worshippers in the Confiteor and Sign of Peace and finally in His preeminent Presence in the Eucharist.

Does not all that point to Christ?

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

Does not all that point to Christ?

Please note what I bolded. I tried to make it clear. When we go what is called “horizontal” it is not to take our eyes off of Christ but to be Him for our fellow worshippers and to see Him in our fellow worshippers. This horizontal perspective is the essence of the concluding prayer and the final blessing: Go forth and be and live the Gospel among our fellow children of God.

Originally Posted by Orionthehunter
As laity, we are called to first bring ourselves fully body, mind and soul to Mass to completely experience Christ through the Priest as celebrant, through the Living Word in the Gospel and Homily, through our fellow worshippers in the Confiteor and Sign of Peace and finally in His preeminent Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

Please note what I bolded. I tried to make it clear. When we go what is called “horizontal” it is not to take our eyes off of Christ but to be Him for our fellow worshippers and to see Him in our fellow worshippers. This horizontal perspective is the essence of the concluding prayer and the final blessing: Go forth and be and live the Gospel among our fellow children of God.

The terms are horizontal worship and vertical worship… When we go horizontal we worship our fellows. This is distinctly different from communal vertical worship.

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

The terms are horizontal worship and vertical worship… When we go horizontal we worship our fellows. This is distinctly different from communal vertical worship.

I have never worshipped my fellows. I assume this isn’t what you intended to say. How is what I said different from what you said except I neglected to say “horizontal worship” and “vertical worship” but in both cases the worship is directed at Christ.

 

[YinYangMom]

paramedicgirl:

That is also the situation for me. Clapping happens at almost every one of our Masses. It is spontaneos, initiated by the parishioners. I have never once seen our priest initiate the applause or even request it. While people are clapping, he smiles, but does not clap himself. Therefore, I do not think there is any disobedience attached to not clapping along with them.

A few weeks ago, our mayor starting clapping at something our priest was saying during his homily!

People start clapping during the announcements

People clap after the announcements.

People clap for the person making the announcements if she has been on holidays and says she’s glad to be back.

People clap if they really liked a song just played by the choir.

And then people clap along to the music, especially, Lord of the Dance. But there are also others they clap to.

Never once has our priest requested this type of behaviour, initiated it or participated in it. (And, oh, he doesn’t smile at all of the above)

Ouch! That really clarifies what you meant earlier by people imposing it on the priest, Paramedicgirl. I agree with you that in your parish this is inappropriate and the priest should put a stop to it. I would highly doubt the bishop would like what you just shared.

Given that, please understand then, that the issue isn’t really about whether or not clapping should be allowed in the mass but whether or not clapping initiated by the people, without the direction or invitation of the presiding priest should be allowed. I suspect we’d all agree with you on that point.

If I recall correctly most of the examples Camp 2 came up with in defense of ‘appropriate’ clapping fell within the GIRM and were initiated by the priest. Do you at least concede those type of situations are appropriate while the ones taking place in your parish and buffalo’s are obviously outside the norm?

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

What evidence do you have one must submit to the idea of clapping during the Holy Sacrifice of the mass as an issue that is binding on the faithful at a normal Sunday mass? Where has She said we must clap for the choir, or girl scouts, or a married couple, etc?

This is an issue of prudence. We must be careful not to worship the clergy as gods, or of a hyper clericalism. The faithful do not make a solemn promise or a vow as priests do. That does not mean we are free to disregard our priests and bishops, but it also does not mean every single utterance must be taken as gospel as if be are bound under pain of sin. Let us be reasonable and not impose things Mother Church does not impose.

I could just as well ask, What evidence do you have one must resist the idea of clapping during the Holy Sacrifice of the mass when the presiding priest calls for it as an issue that is binding on the faithful at a normal Sunday mass?

Where has She said we must **not **clap for the choir, or girl scouts, or a married couple, etc. when a priest invites us to?

We don’t do things only because we’re ordered to. Jesus encourages us to do all things out of love. Where is being defiant, rude, disobedient ever supported by the Church to be examples of love?

It’s not so much that you have to because the Church orders you to. It’s that when a priest, representing the Church at the moment, asks the entire congregation to participate in somethingthen everyone should be respectful of that request and comply - even if it makes one uncomfortable. Out of love, obedience and respect** we defer our own feelings, opinions to the priest** (the Church, in this moment).

I should note, at this juncture, however, that given Paramedicgirls’ recent list of examples of people spontateously clapping without the direction of the priest is not what I would consider appropriate at all…and that’s not the type of applause I’m defending here.

I brought up earlier St. Therese. When we are annoyed or disturbed or frustrated, that is **our **cross to bear and learn to overcome with the grace of God. He pretty much inundates us with these annoyances specifically to encourage us to rise above them, to exercise our virtues.

Where have I stated such a thing?

You’re mixing up posts I wrote in response to Paramedicgirl with those I wrote in response to you. Easy to do. You weren’t the one who refused to be acknowledged by the coordinator of RE along with the other instructors.

 

[MariaG]

msproule:

I have never witnessed, in person, applause used explicitly to show appreciation to God for His works through man. If this is how the situation is presented to the faithful and they understand it that way, my opinion would change dramatically. I acknowledge that at times it may be acceptable if this is really the underlying purpose. I have simply never been present for one of those situations.

Wow! That is all I have been present for. Celebrating 50 years of the Sacrament of Marriage, Ordinations, Celebrating the Sacrament of First Communion, and the most recent, when a young man, thanked the congregation for the opportunity to go to the National Catholic Youth Conference. (And the last one was completely of God! We are a small congregation and I the Youth director was responsible for raising this money. I had so many prayers of “I can’t do this Lord. What have I done Lord. Help me Lord.” That I KNOW this was God’s doing. And the Holy Spirit was so completely visible in this young man, it brought more than one person to tears.)

By the way, I was referring to Michelle Arnold’s responses in the “Ask an Apologist” forum. Father Vincent Serpa’s reply is in regard to an ordination ceremony, which is a truly special circumstance. (In other words, it was not a birthday!)

But Father Vincent Serpa was one of my links. And I do not believe we were just discussing whether or not it is okay to clap for Birthdays, but clapping in general with special circumstances. I do not think a birthday, unless it was Christ’s should fall under that heading.

Before dismissing the point about the homily at the Funeral Mass, understand that it was made in order to clarify that just because we see it in one special circumstance, it does not give license to everybody else to do the same. The fact that Cardinal Ratzinger did not halt the applause was being interpreted by some to mean that the Church fully condoned the practice.

Okay, let’s talk about the Funeral Mass. The Church does condone clapping under special circumstances. Funeral Mass for our last pope would certainly qualify as a special circumstance.

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

After rereading this I want to ask a question without veering too far off topic. Can you provide a citation that can show me where the coroporate worship of the Church intends mere horizontal worship, exclusively or predominately, at any point in the mass?

When are we to take our focus off of God and only focus on us? The phrases Jesus and me versus Jesus and we I find are terrible misused and often an attempt to introduce a notion not understood by the fathers of VII. I may be wrong and seek guidance. Thanks.

You are still missing the point that when we applaud for new members of the Church, for deacons/priests, for 50th anniversary couples, for new communicants, for RE instructors, for WYD participants we are not applauding them … we are applauding the visible evidence/proof of God’s existence and power working through His creations. If that doesn’t deserve a heartfelt uplifting Hallalujiah!! I don’t know what does.

I understand from these posts that those of you uncomfortable with applause have not been able to see the true significance of it in those situations, I’m sorry that is the case for you, having only been exposed to the misuse of applause in your specific parishes…but please do not assume the way things are in your parish is how **every **parish and priest does things.

As for the Jesus and me vs Jesus and we at the Mass…While we each individually go to Mass for our own personal reasons, it is with the underlying purpose of gathering with fellow Catholics to worship and honor God (where two or more are gathered…). That “two or more” is there for a reason. There is more power to our individual prayers when we have others praying with us, just as there is more power to our prayers as a community. That power is diminished if each of us goes to Church and blocks out mentally and emotionally those around us. We are called to step out of our comfort zones by reaching out spiritually, emotionally and physically to those we gather with specifically to give more power to the Sacrifice we are about to offer. We do so because this is what Jesus asked of us.

I just get the impression when I read phrases (not necessarily by you) about how people around me distract me, they’re singing too loud, they want to hold my hand at the our father (which is still acceptable), they aren’t kneeling, they offer the sign of peace to too many people, that this type of person is not able to appreciate and embrace the spirit of communion because they see every practice designed by the Church to promote such a spirit as ‘distracting’ and that, to me, reflects a Jesus and me position. It comes across as, “I’m at Mass to be with Jesus and everyone around me is getting in the way of my doing so. The lady next to me should only be focusing on Jesus, not me, she shouldn’t even notice me, I wish she’d leave me alone.”

“Jesus and we” position is that which is happy to have so many other people come to help me with my prayers, to share the joy and excitement I feel when in God’s house because I know that when two are more are gathered in His name, He is most pleased. When someone extends their hand in the Our Father I don’t like it and I cringe at first, but to me, it is a sign from God that **that **person spiritually needs my help at that moment, that person is asking me to share my faith and strength with him/her in their very special appeal to God, so I offer my hand back openly in service to our Lord. I cannot refuse a request for assistance from any of God’s children. I’m there as part of a larger community. After Mass, if I need some alone time with Jesus, I sit before the tabernacle, or I’ll come back during the week when there are no masses to rush me through my private time with Him.

Now, perhaps I’ve taken all those type of posts way out of proportion but that’s the best way I can explain what I meant by the “Jesus and me” position as opposed to the “Jesus and We”.

 

[MariaG]

YinYangMom:

Ouch! That really clarifies what you meant earlier by people imposing it on the priest, Paramedicgirl. I agree with you that in your parish this is inappropriate and the priest should put a stop to it. I would highly doubt the bishop would like what you just shared.

Given that, please understand then, that the issue isn’t really about whether or not clapping should be allowed in the mass but whether or not clapping initiated by the people, without the direction or invitation of the presiding priest should be allowed. I suspect we’d all agree with you on that point.

I too would agree that there is much inappropriate clapping. SPECIAL has lost its meaning. But that does not mean that all clapping is inappropriate and under special circumstances clapping is allowed.

 

[stargazer257]

Traditional Ang:

Stargazer257:

I would say that you probably have not represented “camp 1” accurately, or at least what i tried to say and saw others trying to say. The term “Sacreligious” has to do with Dogma or Doctrine. What we’re dealing with here is an issue og discipline and how best to worship our Lord. Therefore, I could not call handclapping “Sacreligious”. I would only say that it detracts from our worship of God and takes our focus off of Him…

In Christ, Mchael

I can agree with that. “Sacreligious” is not the correct term. The difference in the dominant two “positions” represented in this thread are simply should or should not the congregation show recogintion during the portion of the mass designated for brief announcements. For the most part we all agree that the rest of the mass is a no-no for clapping.

When I originally wrote that post, I was a bit more “charged up” on the subject (we’re all human, that’s why we have moderators on this forum ). I was planning on putting a few “select” emoicons into the post as well, but my ISP went down before I could post. When I was back online, 100 additional posts had been made, including at least two from the moderators telling us to cool it! It allowed me time to scrutinize my post a bit more for Christian charity before I submitted it. So I believe the Holy Spirit was at work, wacking my ISP so I couldn’t post! Thank you Holy Spirit.

SG257

 

[MariaG]

YinYangMom:

You are still missing the point that when we applaud for new members of the Church, for deacons/priests, for 50th anniversary couples, for new communicants, for RE instructors, for WYD participants we are not applauding them … we are applauding the visible evidence/proof of God’s existence and power working through His creations. If that doesn’t deserve a heartfelt uplifting Hallalujiah!! I don’t know what does.

I understand from these posts that those of you uncomfortable with applause have not been able to see the true significance of it in those situations, I’m sorry that is the case for you, having only been exposed to the misuse of applause in your specific parishes…but please do not assume the way things are in your parish is how **every **parish and priest does things.

I too am sorry that there has been so much misuse and abuse of applause at others churches.

I pray that many of you can come to see that SPECIAL circumstances of clapping can exalt God, not the person.