Hand Clapping During Mass

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stargazer257:
Umm. The scouts were not being recognized for their dancing ability (or juggling or feats of magic for that matter). They were being recognized for their hard work doing religious study.

Now a hypothetical situation here, say a priest is saying his last mass prior to his retirement. Would he be worthy of our appreciation in a form that is recognized by our society today (but is not sacrilegious)? Or should we respond by clapping with one hand only (no disrespect to Fr. Groeschel)?

Until there is a clarification on this and a CLEAR one at that, I have to believe that God is clapping with us, when done appropriately and at the right time.
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Good point, that’s another example of applause I’ve seen…when our priest left to move to another and when we welcomed our new pastor. The applause was right before the closing blessing.
 
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ElizabethAnne:
At my mom’s parish, everyone claps for the music ministry people after Mass. While it’s great to show support for these people, I just don’t feel that it’s appropriate. Jesus just came down from heaven and sacrificed Himself again… all for me! I have much more to focus on than the choir and can easily express my appreciation for their ministry later.
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But you don’t think Jesus would have applauded to show his appreciation for their hard work and effort? This is after the mass, outside the liturgy, how could that be inappropriate? I think that’s where it comes into play…Christ is present with us within the mass and these people are doing His work by speaking to the congregation on behalf of the Catholic church, by being married for 50 years, by coming into the Church, entering into the sacrament of marriage and pronouncing their openess to new life…With Christ present I would fully expect Him to applaud their work for Him along with the rest of us. I certainly to not picture Him scorning everyone in the congregation for doing so.
 
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buffalo:
Fundamentally it comes down to why you are at Mass. Catholics are at Mass to worship and adore God not each other. And by the way it is a relatively recent thing in the American Church.

Every year that passes I see a loss of reverance in Church in favor of ourselves.
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to worship and adore God as a community not alone…
 
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crobynb:
I have been having my own issue with this at mass . . .

I guess I do not have a problem with clapping in celebration or recognition for someones good works at the end of mass announcements - such as a successful fundraiser from the youth group, or wedding blessing, etc. As long as they do not precede or take the place of importance of the Eucharist and Homily. At the end is ok though.

As for in music . . . oh boy. I do not care for it one bit. Our music group at one mass has decided to jazz things up and are singing non-traditional songs and at least two of them every mass include clapping - one of these is the Gloria!!! :eek: I think it takes away the reverant nature and sacredness of our music at mass. I guess I must be a fuddy-duddy but I do not like it. Hubby and I serve as ushers next month at this mass, and I must finish my EMHC term this month - but beginning January we will be changing to a different mass time to avoid this catastrophe. Unfortunately I have found many other parishoners who dislike the new music trend as well, but we are all too uncomfortable with stepping on toes to voice our displeasure. 😦
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I’m with you…

clapping to the Gloria :confused:
 
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YinYangMom:
But you don’t think Jesus would have applauded to show his appreciation for their hard work and effort? This is after the mass, outside the liturgy, how could that be inappropriate? I think that’s where it comes into play…Christ is present with us within the mass and these people are doing His work by speaking to the congregation on behalf of the Catholic church, by being married for 50 years, by coming into the Church, entering into the sacrament of marriage and pronouncing their openess to new life…With Christ present I would fully expect Him to applaud their work for Him along with the rest of us. I certainly to not picture Him scorning everyone in the congregation for doing so.
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Do you think Jesus was clapping at the Last Supper, the first Mass? Do you think the Apostle’s were applauding Him for his great miracles? I don’t think so!!!
 
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YinYangMom:
to worship and adore God as a community not alone…
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Vertical worship is the community pointed toward God together.

Horizontal worship is people pointed to each other.
 
Oh my, what have i done!!! I actually clapped, at the request of our Bishop, at the Ordination of four new priests!! Here it was even written in the program that we received…
RITE OF ORDINATION TO THE PRIESTHOOD
ELECTION OF THE CANDIDATES
Bishop; we rely on the help of the Lord and our Savior Jesus Christ, and we choose these men, our brothers, for service in the presbyteral order
All: Thanks be to God(REVERENT APPLAUSE)

I think I’ll follow the Bishops lead on this one!!
 
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MrS:
Fr Benedict Groeschel interupted applause when he spoke locally a few years back. He said that if you feel you must clap, please just use one hand:D
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Oh, I like that one! :rotfl:
 
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buffalo:
Over the Pope?
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As said before by at least me and Ying, the Pope’s comments were regarding liturgical dancing in teh middle of Mass. The example involving Bishop’s of Mary J and mine was applause immediately prior to the final blessing and after the closing prayer. To use the Pope’s words out of context to prove your point is similar to a Protestant Sola Scriptura use of the Scriptures, is a misuse of the Pope’s words, and casts aspersions on your entire position.

Mary’s comments saying that she will defer to the Bishop’s judgement of this situation over a lay person w/ no ecclesiastical authority is entirely appropriate and in fact quite Catholic.
 
I recall applauding at the end of mass during the christmas season for the choir

I recall applauding when a couple has been acknowledged for celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary (I think it was after the homily and before the prayers of petition).

I recall applauding for the visiting missionaries from other countries as they share their stories to seek our support and prayers (again, after the homily and before the prayers of petition).

I recall applauding for the chairs of certain committees who speak to introduce new educational programs for the parish, seeking members for various councils & committees and ministries (again, after the homily and before prayers of petition).

I recall applauding for the youth group student who spoke to let us know how much the group of kids we helped send to World Youth Day enjoyed their visit to Rome (after the homily, again).

There have been a few baptisms conducted as part of regular Sunday mass and I recall applauding for the new member after the entire ceremony was completed (kind of like they do for wedding masses when the priest introduces the bride and groom - and the congregation applauds).

Are those innappropriate?
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I believe that *most * of these situations should have occurred in the parish hall, certainly not during the Mass. What better way to get people together in a sense of community than to have these presentations over a potluck lunch or coffee and dessert after Mass?
 
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buffalo:
No one is to be uniquely recognized during Mass. Recognize them in the parish hall.
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The problem is, like with many other things, our Priest and Bishops need to tell us this and stop allowing it and in many, many cases actually inviting us to clap. I go to two many Churches in the New Orleans area and many different one during the summer when I am on break from Choir and almost all the parishes do the same thing. I never really thought about it before but I do believe we are there at Mass to honor God and not others. :confused:
 
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Orionthehunter:
What a cold place such a parish would be. I am very orthodox when it comes to the Mass. Concurrent (but subserviant) with my orthodoxy, I value my other parishioners. Sometimes they accomplish wonderful things w/ the help of God. They need to hear our appreciation whether they be Scouts, 1st Communicants, people who have faithfully been married and raised a family in our parish for 50 years, etc. When we applaud (the American customary means to express appreciation) together as a faith community, it is another form of praise and worship.

They aren’t something that “breaks out in the liturgy” but are done after the final prayer and prior to the final blessing. When my former Bishop (known nationally for his attention to liturgical abuses) calls up all the newly confirmed to the altar before the final blessing and then asks everyone to express themselves in applause, I will disregard “interpretations” that say this is improper as something other than from the Church. I’ll consider the use of the Pope’s reference to applause somewhere else in the liturgy than right before the final blessing and thus the use of his quote to prove a “abuse” as a Protestant Sola Scriptura tactic by taking teh Pope’s comment out of context.

In all the cases I referenced, these people have done soemthing that contributes to the parish life and such contributions are a witness to others. Furthermore, not all parishes have halls (ours doesn’t) or the capacity to retain the entire congregation after Mass because of parking limitations to accommodate the next Mass.
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Right before the final blessing is also right after we have received Jesus in the Eucharist. I want to spend that time meditating on the Sacred Mystery that just took place, not on someone’s personal achievement. The sound of all your clapping really interrupts my prayer focus.
 
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Orionthehunter:
As said before by at least me and Ying, the Pope’s comments were regarding liturgical dancing in teh middle of Mass. The example involving Bishop’s of Mary J and mine was applause immediately prior to the final blessing and after the closing prayer. To use the Pope’s words out of context to prove your point is similar to a Protestant Sola Scriptura use of the Scriptures, is a misuse of the Pope’s words, and casts aspersions on your entire position.

Mary’s comments saying that she will defer to the Bishop’s judgement of this situation over a lay person w/ no ecclesiastical authority is entirely appropriate and in fact quite Catholic.
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The specific statement although it finds itself in the area of dancing seem pretty clear in and out of context.

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”

Keywords - Wherever, human achievement
 
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buffalo:
The specific statement although it finds itself in the area of dancing seem pretty clear in and out of context.

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”

Keywords - Wherever, human achievement
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Since my Bishop interprets it differently (he must distinguish between liturgical dancing in the middle of the Mass and something done for a special occassion at the conclusion of the Mass immediately prior to the final blessing), I’ll exercise my obligation to submit to the judgment of my ecclesiastical authority.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Since my Bishop interprets it differently (he must distinguish between liturgical dancing in the middle of the Mass and something done for a special occassion at the conclusion of the Mass immediately prior to the final blessing), I’ll exercise my obligation to submit to the judgment of my ecclesiastical authority.
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Many Bishops have sanctioned liturgical abuses that the Pope has specifically stated should not be done. Others have hidden behind the “spirit of VII”, and some legalism (as in - the rules don’t state it shouldn’t be done, therefore we can do it if we want.)

This very point is what confuses the faithful. Disobedience is not a virtue.

Cardinal Arinze:

"So, Vatican II brought many good things but everything has not been positive and the Synod recognized that there have been shadows. There has been a bit of neglect of the Holy Eucharist outside Mass. A lot of ignorance. A lot of temptations to showmanship for the priest who celebrates facing the people. If he is not very disciplined he will soon become a performer. He may not realize it, but he will be projecting himself rather than projecting Christ. Indeed it is very demanding, the altar facing the people. Then even those who read, the First & Second Reading can engage in little tactics that make them draw attention to themselves and distract the people.

Not to talk of abuses, clear cut abuses where people are going against the books in the liturgy, doing things that the liturgy says should not be done. Then wrong ideas on creativity, believing that after Vatican II the important thing is to make something new.

A scenario where a parish team every week decides how they will have Mass next Sunday, as if the liturgy were something that we put together and not something that we receive. That wrong idea that the important thing is something new every week, which is not true. The people want to adore God. After all, our national anthem is the same, and we sing it every time. We are not tired because we love our country. Our Father, Hail Mary, although we say them many times, they don’t get old.

So there are problems. However some of the problems were not caused by Vatican II, but they were caused by children of the Church after Vatican II. Some of them talking of Vatican II push in their own agenda. We have to watch that. People pushing their own agenda justifying it as the “spirit of Vatican II”.

Moro ever, the review of the various rites was done by human beings, not by angels. So two good scholars can disagree whether this particular rite was retouched in the best possible way or not. A good scholar can say, “I think it could have been retouched in this way, rather than that.” That is allowable as an opinion, but not to celebrate it that way.

ITV: Following on from that, Pope Benedict has written extensively about the problems in the modern liturgy. In the light of both your concerns, are we likely to see tougher action to stop these abuses and errors, outlined in Redemptionis Sacramentum?

ARINZE: Many people would want it, Obviously, there are some major areas the Holy Father decides. But there are areas which are already clear in the liturgical books where all you need is to consult a bishop or a priest. He knows what to do.

So, if only people would be more faithful to what has been laid down not by people who just like to make laws for other people, but what follows from what we believe. Lex orandi, Lex credendi. It is our faith that directs our prayer life, and if we genuflect in front of the tabernacle it is because we believe that Jesus is there, and is God.

If at Mass, we are self-controlled, we are disciplined, we don’t talk in the Church and don’t converse as if we were in a football stadium, it is because of what we believe. Therefore, the most important area is faith and fidelity to that faith, and a faithful reading of the original texts, and their faithful translations, so that people celebrate knowing that the liturgy is the public prayer of the Church.

It is not the property of one individual, therefore one individual does not tinker with it, but makes effort to celebrate it as Holy Mother Church wants. When that happens, the people are happy, they feel nourished. Their faith grows, their faith is strengthened. They go home happy and willing to come back next Sunday.

But when that does not happen, you make quite a problem for those who come to Mass. If the people can say: “Our parish priest who said Mass last Sunday did funny things that are not according to any liturgical book that we know”, that is rather serious."
 
Also:
**Cardinal Francis Arinze Addresses Liturgists
Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety “The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it”.

**6. Creativity in Liturgical Celebrations
One may now ask whether there is any room for creativity in the liturgy. The answer is that there is, but it has to be properly understood. …
 
I myself don’t like to hand clap at Mass, and I wont do it. My husband and I are in agreement on this 🙂
 
Cardinal Francis Arinze Addresses Liturgists
Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety “The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it”.
Code: 
				But when all is said and done, we have to come back to the fact   that the Mass is not there to entertain people. Such horizontalism   would be out of place. People do not come to Mass in order to   admire the preacher, or the choir or the readers. The priority   movement or direction of the Mass is vertical, toward God, not   horizontal, toward one another. What the people need is a faith-filled   celebration, a spiritual experience which draws them to God and   therefore also to their neighbor. As a by-product, such a celebration   will capture the people's interest and attention.
Moreover, liturgical norms are not arbitrary laws or regulations put together to please some historian, or aesthetist, or archaeologist. They are manifestations of what we believe and what we have received from tradition, from the “norm of the holy Fathers” (cf SC 20, GIRM 6), from what generations of our predecessors in the faith have said, done, observed and celebrated. To know that we are doing, saying, hearing and seeing what millions of Christians have done throughout the world for hundreds of years and are doing today, should help us enter better into a committed and prayerful participation. Moreover, by conforming our entire person to all that the liturgy represents, we undergo a transformation and become ever closer to God.

Interior prayer and sacrifice have priority. Hence the importance in liturgical celebrations of quiet preparation, silence, reflection, listening and personal prayer. “A merely external observation of norms would obviously be contrary to the nature of the sacred liturgy, in which Christ Himself wishes to gather His Church, so that together with Himself she will be ‘one body and one spirit’”. (RS 5)

At the same time it needs to be repeated that the spirit of rejection of rules and regulations which would then be regarded as a violation of one’s autonomy, needs to be corrected. It is wrong and unreasonable to maintain a spirit of “Nobody is going to tell me what to do”. This would be a false understanding of liberty. “God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do what is fitting and right”. (RS 7)

It is a blessing and a privilege for us to belong to the Church which in her sacred liturgy celebrates the mysteries of Christ and has Christ Himself as the Chief Priest in every liturgical act. Let us pray to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of our Savior, to obtain for us a growing understanding of the reasons for liturgical norms, willingness to observe them and the grace of daily growth in liturgical piety, love of God and commitment to love and service of our neighbor.

+ Francis Cardinal Arinze
April 8, 2005
 
First of all, nothing that the Cardinal says disputes what I say regarding special recognitions AFTER THE CONCLUDING PRAYER AND BEFORE THE FINAL BLESSING.

Second, you may rest assured that if there was a poll of the top 10 most liturgically correct dioceses in the country, my diocese would be there. Our former Bishop (we actually are run by an Apostolic Administer-a bishop in another diocese who is also a liturgical purist- as we wait for another Bishop) is nationally known for his orthodoxy. Any assertion that he is anything but sound liturgy is blatantly without merit.
 
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