Hand Clapping During Mass

[YinYangMom]

paramedicgirl:

Actually, the invitation was from the coordinator of the CCD program. It was run by her and not priest, and the priest had nothing to do with the announcements and gift-giving that occured during Mass. It wasn’t a situation where there was a blessing from the priest. It was all to acknowledge the teachers. So please do not call me rude because I chose to go to the Saturday night Mass to avoid the gong show. I go to Mass to worship Jesus, not to be noticed.

Actually, the priest has everything to do with what takes place during mass. The director may have handled the details but she could not have done so without his permission and support.

If you had chosen not to attend because it was not a good time for you, or because you already had plans to attend Sunday that is one thing, and not rude.

To purposefully avoid the specific mass to which you were invited - the mass designated to honor those who serve - because you want to ‘avoid the gong show’ is indeed insulting in every way.

 

[buffalo]

paramedicgirl:

Actually, the invitation was from the coordinator of the CCD program. It was run by her and not priest, and the priest had nothing to do with the announcements and gift-giving that occured during Mass. It wasn’t a situation where there was a blessing from the priest. It was all to acknowledge the teachers. So please do not call me rude because I chose to go to the Saturday night Mass to avoid the gong show. I go to Mass to worship Jesus, not to be noticed.

The Church is to be one in prayer and poesture. This and handholding seem to be of the same mold. Anything that divides the people is an issue and IMHO should be eliminated so there will be unity in worship.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

Rome is working on this so it is not as cut and dried as your statment “Rome does not”. Forbidding clapping almost made it into RS. There have been many things that have gone on in Rome and outside that Rome is course correcting us to the true intentions of VII.

And until that day comes and the changes are enacted, we are to respect and obey, not complain.

 

[YinYangMom]

Marilena:

May I ask Tradtional Catholic’s here the same question?
Was hand clapping part of the Tridentene Mass? Is it
practiced at an approved Latin Mass? Have any who
attended either the Tridentene Mass, or an approved Latin
Mass ever hand clapped?

Whoa…since when are “Traditional Catholics” only those who attend the Tridentine Mass? :ehh:

 

[Orionthehunter]

paramedicgirl:

This is exactly what we have been discussing. Some of us believe that it belongs in the parish hall and others like it to happen at Mass. The Mass, in my opinion, should remain sacred and reverent, and all this hand clapping nonsense detracts from its real purpose, and puts the focus on the people instead of on Jesus. There’s my :twocents:

Maybe error as in practicing a liturgical abuse isn’t what you meant to say but when read in combination w/ what you said above and below, it is easy to reach that conclusion. Above you basically say what we described denigrates the Mass since to have special acknowledgements and clap makes it no longer “sacred and reverent” or that it is distraction as you say below.

Right before the final blessing is also right after we have received Jesus in the Eucharist. I want to spend that time meditating on the Sacred Mystery that just took place, not on someone’s personal achievement. The sound of all your clapping really interrupts my prayer focus.

 

[paramedicgirl]

YinYangMom:

Except your opinion does not supercede the magesterium of the church. You believe it belongs in the hall and not in the church. Rome does not.

Who ya’ gonna’ choose?
Rome, for me.

Though, with all due respect, I do acknowledge your point is valid - in that it would be equally appropriate to acknowledge these type of things through some church reception, perhaps once a month. I think it’s great that you’ve made that suggestion to your pastor and continue to encourage it, but the final decision is respectfully his to make and he has the support of the Bishop and of Rome.

I’m not sure if you read this post a ways back, but you can see that some of what we are discussing is tolerated, not encouraged. And I never suggested that my opinions supercede the authority of the Church.

From the USCCB Committee on the Liturgy:
Quote:
74.** If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass**. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer After Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,156 nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.

It looks like the USCCB does have a distinction on things done after the Prayer after Communion and prior to the final blessing.

Quote:
D. THE CONCLUDING RITES

1. The concluding rites consist of

Brief announcements, **if they are necessary; **
The priest’s greeting and blessing, which on certain days and occasions is enriched and expressed in the prayer over the People or another more solemn formula;

The dismissal of the people by the deacon or the priest, so that each may go out to do good works, praising and blessing God;

The kissing of the altar by the priest and the deacon, followed by a profound bow to the altar by the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers.

Also from the USCCB:
Quote:
23. The faithful “should cling to the Bishop as the Church does to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ does to the Father, so that all may be in harmonious unity, and that they may abound to the glory of God.”54 All, including members of Institutes of consecrated life and Societies of apostolic life as well as those of all ecclesial associations and movements of any kind, are subject to the authority of the diocesan Bishop in all liturgical matters,55 apart from rights that have been legitimately conceded. To the diocesan Bishop therefore falls the right and duty of overseeing and attending to churches and oratories in his territory in regard to liturgical matters, and this is true also of those which are founded by members of the above-mentioned institutes or under their direction, provided that the faithful are accustomed to frequent them.56

I do respect the authority of our very holy bishop. I feel sad that there is so much geographical distance between us that the only time we see him is on Confirmation Sunday. When I travel to my birth town, where he lives, I always go to his Masses, as they are very reverent and holy.

 

[MariaG]

paramedicgirl:

This is exactly what we have been discussing. Some of us believe that it belongs in the parish hall and others like it to happen at Mass. The Mass, in my opinion, should remain sacred and reverent, and all this hand clapping nonsense detracts from its real purpose, and puts the focus on the people instead of on Jesus. There’s my :twocents:

Respectfully, my question/point was not the clapping in and of itself.

My point question is this:

Since most events being clapped at are good works, (ie, without God’s Grace they would not have been possible), why is it wrong to praise and give glory to God through the works of these people?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[paramedicgirl]

YinYangMom:

So you’re saying this does not mean you think the priests are wrong (in error) to allow clapping in Mass and that by doing so they are detracting from the reason of the Mass by removing the focus of the congregation off of Jesus?

Once again, people are the problem, not the priests. It is the habits of the people who force their ways on others until their habits become accepted as the norm. This has a history in the church. Just look at female altar servers.

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

That is my point as well. Many mistakenly “feel” it is dead due to poor catechesis and the result is to “liven” it up through sentimentalism and gushy emotionalism, rather than holiness, true joy and awe.

We go overboard to seem friendly in silly ways, rather than embrace the mass as the Church intends. We certainly can be welcoming and hospitalble without turning the mass into entertainment.

We gather together as a community to **celebrate **the Mass.
Not every aspect of the mass is solemn. That’s why the music is joyous at some parts, uplifting at others, reflective in still others.
There is a clear opening and closing sequence which is intended to foster communion with the person next to you, we are not just there alone - you and Jesus, me and Jesus - it’s Jesus and us as one…until the Liturgy of the Eucharist when it becomes very private and personal. All rituals and music are designed around preserving that intimate time with each of us and our Lord. But then the Mass moves on to the closing where we receive blessing and we say goodbye to our fellow Catholics who asked for our prayers and support not 30 minutes earlier - until we meet again next week (hopefully sooner).

 

[YinYangMom]

paramedicgirl:

Once again, people are the problem, not the priests. It is the habits of the people who force their ways on others until their habits become accepted as the norm. This has a history in the church. Just look at female altar servers.

So now I think I understand your position better…you’re saying the DRE forced this issue on the priest and he caved in, that if he had his 'druthers he’s side with you and not have any applause at all. But if he really believed that he would never have authorized it, it would have been within his authority to say no to the DRE.

Barking up the wrong tree with that one, I have no problem whatsoever with female altar servers.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Actually, the priest has everything to do with what takes place during mass. The director may have handled the details but she could not have done so without his permission and support.

If you had chosen not to attend because it was not a good time for you, or because you already had plans to attend Sunday that is one thing, and not rude.

To purposefully avoid the specific mass to which you were invited - the mass designated to honor those who serve - because you want to ‘avoid the gong show’ is indeed insulting in every way.

No one including the Priest has a right to deprive the faithful of their right to a correct liturgy. NO one.

From RS:

[5.] The observance of the norms published by the authority of the Church requires conformity of thought and of word, of external action and of the application of the heart. A merely external observation of norms would obviously be contrary to the nature of the Sacred Liturgy, in which Christ himself wishes to gather his Church, so that together with himself she will be “one body and one spirit”.[12] For this reason, external action must be illuminated by faith and charity, which unite us with Christ and with one another and engender love for the poor and the abandoned. The liturgical words and rites, moreover, are a faithful expression, matured over the centuries, of the understanding of Christ, and they teach us to think as he himself does;[13] by conforming our minds to these words, we raise our hearts to the Lord. All that is said in this Instruction is directed toward such a conformity of our own understanding with that of Christ, as expressed in the words and the rites of the Liturgy.

[6.] For abuses “contribute to the obscuring of the Catholic faith and doctrine concerning this wonderful sacrament”.[14] Thus, they also hinder the faithful from “re-living in a certain way the experience of the two disciples of Emmaus: ‘and their eyes were opened, and they recognized him’”.[15] For in the presence of God’s power and divinity[16] and the splendour of his goodness, made manifest especially in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, it is fitting that all the faithful should have and put into practice that power of acknowledging God’s majesty that they have received through the saving Passion of the Only-Begotten Son.[17]

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18] This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

[8.]** It is therefore to be noted with great sadness that “ecumenical initiatives which are well-intentioned, nevertheless indulge at times in Eucharistic practices contrary to the discipline by which the Church expresses her faith”. Yet the Eucharist “is too great a gift to tolerate ambiguity or depreciation”. It is therefore necessary that some things be corrected or more clearly delineated so that in this respect as well “the Eucharist will continue to shine forth in all its radiant mystery”.**[19]

 

[YinYangMom]

fix:

As I said in another thread these “minor” issues are seen as important to folks because of a perceived lack of faithfulness in many central areas of the faith of much of the laity and clergy.

If we had a culture that was very observant of Church teachings, or publicly loyal and authentically submissive to the authority of Rome, all these less important issues would not generate so much attention.

They see little correction of error, many openly dissenting or at least disregarding the authority of the Church, then they see the mass as an experiment that is available to be molded on the personal whim of many, finally clapping, hand holding, etc are viewed as symptoms of a greater problem. Just my opinion.

Now this, I would agree with, how the perception of these minor issues gets taken out of context because they become representative of a greater problem, a very real one and a threat, for certain.

But you realize of course, that even with your call for “a culture that was very observant of Church teachings, or publicly loyal and authentically submissive to the authority of Rome” you and the others who are complaining about clapping during mass and some of these other minor issues are, by complaining, not being observant of Church teachings or displaying public loyalty and authentic submission to the authority in Rome, especially when you choose to avoid Masses which have such authorized and approved ‘minor issues’ being practiced.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

The Church is to be one in prayer and poesture. This and handholding seem to be of the same mold. Anything that divides the people is an issue and IMHO should be eliminated so there will be unity in worship.

Seem to be, but are not.

 

[buffalo]

and further from RS:

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.[27] On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,[28] and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,[29] but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.[30] The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.[31]

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. **Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. **Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]

[13.] All of the norms and exhortations set forth in this Instruction are connected, albeit in various ways, with the mission of the Church, whose task it is to be vigilant concerning the correct and worthy celebration of so great a mystery. The last chapter of the present Instruction will treat of the varying degrees to which the individual norms are bound up with the supreme norm of all ecclesiastical law, namely concern for the salvation of souls.[33]

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

, especially when you choose to avoid Masses which have such authorized and approved ‘minor issues’ being practiced.

Do you have a specific document that “authorizes”?

 

[YinYangMom]

Breton:

Should we hide the priest, lectors, EMHC’s, et al behind a curtain of anonymity so that we are not distracted by facial expressions, personal mannerisms, dress, etc…. Maybe we should regulate the tone and inflection of their voices. .

Which reminds me…if we find ourselves distracted by anything in mass that is our own cross to bear and overcome. God gives it to us to help us exercise the virtues of patience. To coerce everyone around you so that you don’t have to endure the cross of distraction is going against God’s plan for you. Wasn’t it St.Theresa who found the sister praying before her so darn annoying with the gnawing of the teeth as she prayed? Didn’t she finally ask the Lord to help her not be so irritated by this sister, and as a result she came to hear only music instead of the gnawing?

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

No one including the Priest has a right to deprive the faithful of their right to a correct liturgy. NO one.

Oh please! Paramedicgirl herself showed that applause was acceptable (not encouraged, not required, but acceptable) and since it’s done in the proper segment of the Mass no one is being deprived of a correct liturgy. NO ONE.

And that includes everybody in St. Peter’s Square for JPIIs funeral. That was perhaps, the most sincere, divine, complete liturgy I’ve ever witnessed in my life, and no one there was deprived due to the applause permitted by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Are you suggesting he had no right to allow the applause?

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

Do you have a specific document that “authorizes”?

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Have you been able to see the picture I tried to post (post #92)? The man standing and clapping next to the seated newly ordained Archbishop Gullickson is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Oh please! Paramedicgirl herself showed that applause was acceptable (not encouraged, not required, but acceptable) and since it’s done in the proper segment of the Mass no one is being deprived of a correct liturgy. NO ONE.

And that includes everybody in St. Peter’s Square for JPIIs funeral. That was perhaps, the most sincere, divine, complete liturgy I’ve ever witnessed in my life, and no one there was deprived due to the applause permitted by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Are you suggesting he had no right to allow the applause?

I think I heard somewhere that when Italians applaud it means something different than when we do.

 

[paramedicgirl]

YinYangMom:

So now I think I understand your position better…you’re saying the DRE forced this issue on the priest and he caved in, that if he had his 'druthers he’s side with you and not have any applause at all. But if he really believed that he would never have authorized it, it would have been within his authority to say no to the DRE.

Barking up the wrong tree with that one, I have no problem whatsoever with female altar servers.

I assume by DRE you mean director of religious education. We don’t have one. All we have is one priest. No parish employees. No liturgical directors. Just some very pushy women who keep getting things their way by sheer force.