Hand Clapping During Mass

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Orionthehunter:
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Have you been able to see the picture I tried to post (post #92)? The man standing and clapping next to the seated newly ordained Archbishop Gullickson is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.
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Again, reread what Cardinal Arinze has said about these things -

From
Inside the Vatican Interview: What Will be the Consequences of the Synod?

ITV: Following on from that, Pope Benedict has written extensively about the problems in the modern liturgy. In the light of both your concerns, are we likely to see tougher action to stop these abuses and errors, outlined in Redemptionis Sacramentum?
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                 **ARINZE:** Many people would want it, Obviously,                      there are some major areas the Holy Father decides. But there                      are areas which are already clear in the liturgical books                      where all you need is to consult a bishop or a priest. He                      knows what to do.

                 So, if only people would be more faithful to what has been                      laid down not by people who just like to make laws for other                      people, but what follows from what we believe. Lex orandi,                      Lex credendi. It is our faith that directs our prayer life,                      and if we genuflect in front of the tabernacle it is because                      we believe that Jesus is there, and is God.

                 If at Mass, we are self-controlled, we are disciplined, we                      don't talk in the Church and don't converse as if we were                      in a football stadium, it is because of what we believe. Therefore,                      the most important area is faith and fidelity to that faith,                      and a faithful reading of the original texts, and their faithful                      translations, so that people celebrate knowing that the liturgy                      is the public prayer of the Church.

                 **It is not the property of one individual, therefore one individual                      does not tinker with it, but makes effort to celebrate it                      as Holy Mother Church wants. When that happens, the people                      are happy, they feel nourished. Their faith grows, their faith                      is strengthened. They go home happy and willing to come back                      next Sunday.**

                 **But when that does not happen, you make quite a problem for                      those who come to Mass. If the people can say: "Our parish                      priest who said Mass last Sunday did funny things that are                      not according to any liturgical book that we know", that                      is rather serious.**
 
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buffalo:
and further from RS:

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.[27] On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,[28] and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,[29] but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.[30] The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.[31]

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. **Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. **Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]

[13.] All of the norms and exhortations set forth in this Instruction are connected, albeit in various ways, with the mission of the Church, whose task it is to be vigilant concerning the correct and worthy celebration of so great a mystery. The last chapter of the present Instruction will treat of the varying degrees to which the individual norms are bound up with the supreme norm of all ecclesiastical law, namely concern for the salvation of souls.[33]
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No one is messin’ with the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
 
And this:

**Cardinal Francis Arinze Addresses Liturgists
**Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety “The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it”.

4. Authority over the Liturgy
The above reflections lead us to ask who has authority over the sacred liturgy. Who decides on the texts, the ceremonies, the norms? We cannot afford to be vague on this.
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				The Second Vatican Council is not ambiguous: "Regulation   of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the   Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine,   on the bishop. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation   of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to   various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately   established". Then the Council adds the warning: "Therefore,   absolutely no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove   or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority".   (SC 22) 
				
				These rulings are not a sign of lack of respect for anyone. They   follow from the fact that the liturgy is a celebration of the   universal Church. "The prayers addressed to God by the priest   who presides over the assembly in the person of Christ are said   in the name of the entire holy people as well as of all present.   And the visible signs used by the liturgy to signify invisible   divine things have been chosen by Christ or the Church".   (SC 33)
** From these considerations it follows that a do-it-yourself attitude is not acceptable in the public worship of the Church. It does damage to the Church’s worship and to the faith of the people. The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it. (cf RS 12) The mysteries of Christ should not be celebrated as personal taste or whim may indicate.** “The ‘treasure’ is too important and precious to risk impoverishment or compromise through forms of experimentation or practices introduced without a careful review on the part of ecclesiastical authorities”. (EE 51)
 
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buffalo:
Again, reread what Cardinal Arinze has said about these things -

From
Inside the Vatican Interview: What Will be the Consequences of the Synod?

ITV: Following on from that, Pope Benedict has written extensively about the problems in the modern liturgy. In the light of both your concerns, are we likely to see tougher action to stop these abuses and errors, outlined in Redemptionis Sacramentum?

ARINZE: Many people would want it, Obviously, there are some major areas the Holy Father decides. But there are areas which are already clear in the liturgical books where all you need is to consult a bishop or a priest. He knows what to do.

So, if only people would be more faithful to what has been laid down not by people who just like to make laws for other people, but what follows from what we believe. Lex orandi, Lex credendi. It is our faith that directs our prayer life, and if we genuflect in front of the tabernacle it is because we believe that Jesus is there, and is God.

If at Mass, we are self-controlled, we are disciplined, we don’t talk in the Church and don’t converse as if we were in a football stadium, it is because of what we believe. Therefore, the most important area is faith and fidelity to that faith, and a faithful reading of the original texts, and their faithful translations, so that people celebrate knowing that the liturgy is the public prayer of the Church.

It is not the property of one individual, therefore one individual does not tinker with it, but makes effort to celebrate it as Holy Mother Church wants. When that happens, the people are happy, they feel nourished. Their faith grows, their faith is strengthened. They go home happy and willing to come back next Sunday.

But when that does not happen, you make quite a problem for those who come to Mass. If the people can say: “Our parish priest who said Mass last Sunday did funny things that are not according to any liturgical book that we know”, that is rather serious.
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and in the meantime, while the Synod and the Pope and all those who are working on the documents, we the faithful, respect and obey those guidelines given to us - we do not complain about it, especially when it isn’t a liturgical abuse. Applause in the appropriate times of the mass is not an abuse of the liturgy.
 
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buffalo:
I think I heard somewhere that when Italians applaud it means something different than when we do.
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Please site authority for your statement. 😉 I was in Rome this summer on the way to WYD and all the clapping I saw them do sure looked like it meant appreciation. The clapping at the WYD Mass conclusion also looked like appreciation. I assume the smile on the Pope’s face indicates something. Speakkng of World Youth Day, I think everyone who hasn’t watched the Mass done outside Cologne Germany needs to see it (it was a very typical youth Mass when you consider the music and the joy). It was the one of the holiest Masses I’ve ever been to. In addition to the Pope celebrating, the Body of Christ was exuberent in those 1 million of the most on fire Christians I’ve ever seen.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Have you been able to see the picture I tried to post (post #92)? The man standing and clapping next to the seated newly ordained Archbishop Gullickson is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.
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This may fall under - Cardinal Responds to Questions on Liturgy
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				Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough   problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God.   And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else   to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it. 
				
				Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and   the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor   Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know   what they arranged. **And somebody introduces something funny --   is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved?   Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship?   We would throw it out!** If people want to dance, they know where   to go.
 
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buffalo:
I think I heard somewhere that when Italians applaud it means something different than when we do.
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Oh, riiigghhtt…those were only Italians in St. Peter’s Square that day - I forgot 😉
 
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buffalo:
This may fall under - Cardinal Responds to Questions on Liturgy
Code: 
				Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough   problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God.   And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else   to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it. 
				
				Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and   the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor   Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know   what they arranged. **And somebody introduces something funny --   is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved?   Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship?   We would throw it out!** If people want to dance, they know where   to go.
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If you will note in the picture, the other Bishop’s had not risen. The standing ovation was started by the Archbishop.

Furthermore, would you quit bringing the dance issue up. This is not what we are talking about. You continually link the two when we have tried to show you they are distinct and at very different times of the Mass.

Finally, do you really believe the right thing to do after the newly ordained gave a personal talk that moved him to tears that we should have all sat there in silence?
 
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paramedicgirl:
I assume by DRE you mean director of religious education. We don’t have one. All we have is one priest. No parish employees. No liturgical directors. Just some very pushy women who keep getting things their way by sheer force.
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I was referring to the Coordinator of the CCD program. She does not run the program without the guidance and authorization of the Pastor, therefore, she acts on his behalf in her capacity of coordinator and that is why, pushy or not, like her or not, she deserves your respect. Besides she is still a person of Christ and all people deserve respect and dignity on that alone regardless of their position or behaviors. For a devout Catholic you seem to keep missing the point of Jesus’ commandment “Love one another as I have loved you”.
 
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YinYangMom:
and in the meantime, while the Synod and the Pope and all those who are working on the documents, we the faithful, respect and obey those guidelines given to us - we do not complain about it, especially when it isn’t a liturgical abuse. Applause in the appropriate times of the mass is not an abuse of the liturgy.
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Anything that is not proscribed can fall under abuse. The rubrics do not say what we cannot do, they say what we should do and do not address every crazy innovation anyone comes up with. What you are claiming is a sort of legalism that if we do not see a document expressly forbidding something we can do it. This is not so!
 
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YinYangMom:
I was referring to the Coordinator of the CCD program. She does not run the program without the guidance and authorization of the Pastor, therefore, she acts on his behalf in her capacity of coordinator and that is why, pushy or not, like her or not, she deserves your respect. Besides she is still a person of Christ and all people deserve respect and dignity on that alone regardless of their position or behaviors. For a devout Catholic you seem to keep missing the point of Jesus’ commandment “Love one another as I have loved you”.
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I never said that she was pushy. You really take a lot of liberty interpreting my posts. It is rather amusing. 🙂
 
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paramedicgirl:
I’m not sure if you read this post a ways back, but you can see that some of what we are discussing is tolerated, not encouraged. And I never suggested that my opinions supercede the authority of the Church.

From the USCCB Committee on the Liturgy:
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I did read that and noted, to myself, that the second part was not addressing applause during the Mass, and the first certainly didn’t use the word ‘tolerate’ anywhere. I didn’t see ‘prohibited’ either. I did see “permissible” more than once, though.
 
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Orionthehunter:
If you will note in the picture, the other Bishop’s had not risen. The standing ovation was started by the Archbishop.

Furthermore, would you quit bringing the dance issue up. This is not what we are talking about. You continually link the two when we have tried to show you they are distinct and at very different times of the Mass.

Finally, do you really believe the right thing to do after the newly ordained gave a personal talk that moved him to tears that we should have all sat there in silence?
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It just so happens the quote I am referring to is contained therein. It is a key phrase that refers to posts that show that because Bishop so and so does it it must be OK. The key point here is:

And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out!
 
Yep, hand clapping is heard at the parish I go to.

Not to mention that I heard that the congregation will clap for us when we get confirmed Sunday!
 
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buffalo:
Do you have a specific document that “authorizes”?
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Tell ya what…while I look that up, how 'bout showing me the specific document which ‘prohibits’ it. Perhaps when you find that we should express mail it over to Pope Benedict to admonish him for misrepresenting the sanctity of the Mass in front of millions of people. 😉
 
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YinYangMom:
Tell ya what…while I look that up, how 'bout showing me the specific document which ‘prohibits’ it. Perhaps when you find that we should express mail it over to Pope Benedict to admonish him for misrepresenting the sanctity of the Mass in front of millions of people. 😉
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To my knowledge one doesn’t exist. This is one of these areas that may eventually be ruled upon.

Further you will find no document expressly forbidding cartwheels in the Sanctuary either.
 
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buffalo:
It just so happens the quote I am referring to is contained therein. It is a key phrase that refers to posts that show that because Bishop so and so does it it must be OK. The key point here is:

And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out!
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You might lightly dismiss this man but I do not. He is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.

Additionally, I urge you to watch the WYD Mass. If you think that this was a Mass (the Pope’s first major Mass after his installation) that was thrust upon this Pope without his blessing, you have a very different impression of the control that this Pope has over his own staff than I do.
 
(that seems so Protestant to me!),

Please this drives me nuts. One-End the massive over-generalizations. Two Condescending attitudes are not productive. Three it smacks of being judgemental.

There is no monolithic P organization. They’ll start a new DeNom at the drop of a hat…wait maybe that explains the Mennonites and their love of head coverings.
 
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YinYangMom:
Actually, the priest has everything to do with what takes place during mass. The director may have handled the details but she could not have done so without his permission and support.

If you had chosen not to attend because it was not a good time for you, or because you already had plans to attend Sunday that is one thing, and not rude.

To purposefully avoid the specific mass to which you were invited - the mass designated to honor those who serve - because you want to ‘avoid the gong show’ is indeed insulting in every way.
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I’m clapping right now!!!
 
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