Hand Clapping During Mass

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

. Otherwise, I’ll assume that no answer is concurence they are acceptable to the Church (your personal desires and wishes notwithstanding).

I have not studied these examples so I will not comment on them at this time.

If only it were this simple - (your personal desires and wishes notwithstanding)

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

I have not studied these examples so I will not comment on them at this time.

If only it were this simple - (your personal desires and wishes notwithstanding)

This is the subject of the thread. You mean your comments have been done w/o out studying these specific examples. This is what it has been about. Oh yeah. I forgot. You were talking about liturgical dance, contraception, and spontaneous rounds of applause during the homily.

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

This is the subject of the thread. You mean your comments have been done w/o out studying these specific examples. This is what it has been about. Oh yeah. I forgot. You were talking about liturgical dance, contraception, and spontaneous rounds of applause during the homily.

Be patient my friend.

 

[MariaG]

Back in post #151 I posted a few links to Ask the Apologist.

Were applause and chanting appropriate during JPII’s funeral Mass?

Is clapping allowed at Mass?

Should we clap to celebrate Mass?

The last one in particular.

From Ask the Apologist (Bold and underline added by me)There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

So according to Fr. Serpa, clapping is not only allowed, but required, at times, or at least this specific time.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[paramedicgirl]

MariaG:

Back in post #151 I posted a few links to Ask the Apologist.

Should we clap to celebrate Mass?
From Ask the Apologist There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

So according to Fr. Serpa, clapping is not only allowed, but required, at times, or at least this specific time.

God Bless,
Maria

I agree that “During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval.” We must obey and show our approval in this instance.

Fr. Serpa also states, though, (and this is what this thread is about):
But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

 

[YinYangMom]

paramedicgirl:

I agree that “During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval.” We must obey and show our approval in this instance.

Fr. Serpa also states, though, (and this is what this thread is about):
But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

But who here in this thread has **ever **suggested clapping is always appropriate???

And who here has ever suggested clapping should be done at the high point of the Eucharist (since that would be the closest to your example of standing at the foot of the cross)???

 

[Michael038]

paramedicgirl:

Do you feel as I do that hand clapping has no place in the Mass? Not only clapping to the beat of songs (that seems so Protestant to me!), but also applauding parishioners for whatever reason they are being exalted?

Why can’t we give all praise to Jesus at Mass? It is only one hour a week, and to remove the focus from Jesus to applaud a parishioner seems to detract from the reason we are there.

At our Church after the baptism of the babies our Priest introduces them to the parish and urges us to applause. Also, he recognizes at the beginning of each month the anniversaries, and Birthdays and urges all to applause. I dont think anything wrong with this myself.

 

[MariaG]

paramedicgirl:

I agree that “During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval.” We must obey and show our approval in this instance.

Fr. Serpa also states, though, (and this is what this thread is about):
But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

Very true, clapping is not always appropriate. But it is appropriate at special times as well as required in at least one instance.

I pray your pastor will start to see the importance of relagating clapping to SPECIAL times, and to be most appropriately led by him.

 

[MariaG]

paramedicgirl:

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

You know, I have to say this just struck me. And althoug I know if I were standing there, I would have been so saddened I certainly would not wish to clap.

However, today, we should not be saddened but joyous for the gift. Clapping today is very appropriate since we understand the greatness of His sacrifice and gift.

And although I know you don’t mean this in this way, I think the focus so completely on the crucifixion, and seemingly ignoring the resurrection (which would be a cause for joy) is why some non-catholics think we don’t worship the Risen Lord.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Traditional_Ang]

YinYangMom:

Actually, the priest has everything to do with what takes place during mass. The director may have handled the details but she could not have done so without his permission and support.

If you had chosen not to attend because it was not a good time for you, or because you already had plans to attend Sunday that is one thing, and not rude.

To purposefully avoid the specific mass to which you were invited - the mass designated to honor those who serve - because you want to ‘avoid the gong show’ is indeed insulting in every way.

YinYangMom:

What if she feels insulted by the way the thing is presented and by the way it detratcts from the fact that we are “Houseguests” of the Kings of Kings and the Lord of Lords? What if she would much rather be honored with her friends and those members of the Congregation who care about these things in a ceremony in the parish hall during the Agape after Mass?

Why do we have to do all of these things DURING Mass? Why do we need to have them intrude on the time we spend with the Lord of the Universe who made us and then redeemed us? Why can’t this be done AFTER Mass so that it doesn’t intrude on our time with our Lord?

At some point, I’d lie to hear something more compelling than that someone would feel insulted. God made us, and His we are. and, When we fell into sin, He redeemed us, paying the price for our sin.

“Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, but render unto God that which is God’s.”

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

YinYangMom:

And until that day comes and the changes are enacted, we are to respect and obey, not complain.

YinYangMom

Yes, but whom? and, Are we called to “Blind obedience”, or to submission to the Magisterium of the Church?

I would say to obey Rome, the directions given in the GIRM and one’s “Well-formed Conscience” as John Henry Cardinal Newman would put it.

Even St. Paul said that all things should be done in good order and should not detract from our worsip of God or our unity as a community.

How does all of this handclapping at various times of the Mass for various reasons conform to that?

Isn’t there a better place for most of that?

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

paramedicgirl:

I’m not sure if you read this post a ways back, but you can see that some of what we are discussing is tolerated, not encouraged. And I never suggested that my opinions supercede the authority of the Church.

From the USCCB Committee on the Liturgy:
Quote:
74.** If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass**. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer After Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,156 nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.

It looks like the USCCB does have a distinction on things done after the Prayer after Communion and prior to the final blessing.

Quote:
D. THE CONCLUDING RITES

1. The concluding rites consist of

Brief announcements, **if they are necessary; **
The priest’s greeting and blessing, which on certain days and occasions is enriched and expressed in the prayer over the People or another more solemn formula;

The dismissal of the people by the deacon or the priest, so that each may go out to do good works, praising and blessing God;

The kissing of the altar by the priest and the deacon, followed by a profound bow to the altar by the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers.

Also from the USCCB:
Quote:
23. The faithful “should cling to the Bishop as the Church does to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ does to the Father, so that all may be in harmonious unity, and that they may abound to the glory of God.”54 All, including members of Institutes of consecrated life and Societies of apostolic life as well as those of all ecclesial associations and movements of any kind, are subject to the authority of the diocesan Bishop in all liturgical matters,55 apart from rights that have been legitimately conceded. To the diocesan Bishop therefore falls the right and duty of overseeing and attending to churches and oratories in his territory in regard to liturgical matters, and this is true also of those which are founded by members of the above-mentioned institutes or under their direction, provided that the faithful are accustomed to frequent them.56

I do respect the authority of our very holy bishop. I feel sad that there is so much geographical distance between us that the only time we see him is on Confirmation Sunday. When I travel to my birth town, where he lives, I always go to his Masses, as they are very reverent and holy.

ParamedicGirl:

I’ve taking the liberty of reprinting this…

The Canon of the Mass and the time immediately after it are among the most solemn times in all of Christendom, because those are the te times when the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords becomes fully present at the alter and then allows us to eat and drink Him.

I can see no compelling reason or necessity to break this up with handclapping, etc. for someone’s birthday, or a speech on Christian Living by a Layperson such as myself regardless of the fact that the USCCB has decided to all, not enourage, this behavior.

I’ve experienced a perfectly good place for that type of recognition.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

YinYangMom:

We gather together as a community to **celebrate **the Mass.
Not every aspect of the mass is solemn. That’s why the music is joyous at some parts, uplifting at others, reflective in still others.
There is a clear opening and closing sequence which is intended to foster communion with the person next to you, we are not just there alone - you and Jesus, me and Jesus - it’s Jesus and us as one…until the Liturgy of the Eucharist when it becomes very private and personal. All rituals and music are designed around preserving that intimate time with each of us and our Lord. But then the Mass moves on to the closing where we receive blessing and we say goodbye to our fellow Catholics who asked for our prayers and support not 30 minutes earlier - until we meet again next week (hopefully sooner).

YinYangMom:

I think the first sentence explains the problem most people here are having. The Eucharist isn’t a Celebration. It’s a Sacrifice, an “Anamnesis” (Greek Word) back to the Upper Room and the foot of the cross at Calvery. We don’t just reenact those events, we relive them as we are taken back to them or they are brought forward to us.

Christ is, so to speak, sacrificed on the alter, and we are sacrificed with him, so that we can rise with Him as new people and on that Day when, “He shall wipe every tear from their eye.” That is why the old Catechism and the old Missals refered to the “Unbloody Sacrifice” of the Mass which was made effective by the Bloody Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

We celebrate the new life in Christ, and the fact that He came that we “might have life more abundantly”, but that’s not the primary reason for the Eucharist.

That’s why, with very few exceptions, we shouldn’t break that action with applause before, during or after, at least not until after the Priest has given his blessing and the Sacred Ministers have left the sancuary and the building.

I hope this is clear. There really is a Doctrinal reason for discouraging applause, etc. during the Mass.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

YinYangMom:

Oh please! Paramedicgirl herself showed that applause was acceptable (not encouraged, not required, but acceptable) and since it’s done in the proper segment of the Mass no one is being deprived of a correct liturgy. NO ONE.

And that includes everybody in St. Peter’s Square for JPIIs funeral. That was perhaps, the most sincere, divine, complete liturgy I’ve ever witnessed in my life, and no one there was deprived due to the applause permitted by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Are you suggesting he had no right to allow the applause?

YinYangMom

I’m sure that you understand that “Allowed” and “Acceptable” have two different meanings. How many non-smokers here have ALLOWED relatives or a friends to light up in order to keep the friendships they prized when the habit was abhorent to them and something they’d never think of doing themselves? How many people here have gotten into cars with friends who habitually drove too fast and didn’t complain even though they’ve never sped in their lives?

Regarding the cheering in Italy. That’s how Italians grieve and show gratitude to God for the gift of a saint. I first saw it on the night Pope John Paul II died, when the Italians similtaneously cried and cheered for an hour. It was then I realized that He was St. John Paul II the Great, Pope and Doctor of the Church. What the Italians did was actually much closer to what the GIRM envisioned than anything I’ve seen happening here or described in these pages.

In Christ, Michael

PS: in reference to following the orders of a Priest - Not when they conflict with the GIRM or with the rest of the Magisterium or my “Well-formed Conscience”. The Priest does not have the Charism of Infallibility. That’s only given to the Pope in certain limited circumstances, to the Whole Church when speaking in Ecumenical Council and to the entire Church when speaking as one over the Centuries on matters of Faith and Morals.

That’s one reason we have an obligation to “Inform our Consciences” by studying the Catechism, the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, the writings of Popes such as Pope John Paul II and the Documents of the Church Councils.

 

[MrS]

YinYangMom:

Horizontal worship does not mean we worship our fellows at all.
That is your own misperception.
Horizontal worship is worshiping with and through Christ present in the persons beside us.
It seems you forget or disregard that Christ is present in the person beside you, just as He is in you. They cannot be separated especially during the mass.

Agreed. Christ is present everywhere… but we don’t go outside and worship a tree. Some may choose to hug the tree, however.

But… the Real Presence of Christ is the purpose of the Mass, not His presence in my neighbor. Our direction, during the Mass should always be toward the Real Presence…period.

That is the distinction between vertical and horizontal. YYM, by now you should have gotten the point.

 

[YinYangMom]

Traditional Ang:

YinYangMom:

I think the first sentence explains the problem most people here are having. The Eucharist isn’t a Celebration. It’s a Sacrifice, an “Anamnesis” (Greek Word) back to the Upper Room and the foot of the cross at Calvery. We don’t just reenact those events, we relive them as we are taken back to them or they are brought forward to us.

Christ is, so to speak, sacrificed on the alter, and we are sacrificed with him, so that we can rise with Him as new people and on that Day when, “He shall wipe every tear from their eye.” That is why the old Catechism and the old Missals refered to the “Unbloody Sacrifice” of the Mass which was made effective by the Bloody Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

We celebrate the new life in Christ, and the fact that He came that we “might have life more abundantly”, but that’s not the primary reason for the Eucharist.

That’s why, with very few exceptions, we shouldn’t break that action with applause before, during or after, at least not until after the Priest has given his blessing and the Sacred Ministers have left the sancuary and the building.

I hope this is clear. There really is a Doctrinal reason for discouraging applause, etc. during the Mass.

In Christ, Michael

What people forget is that the Eucharist is part of the Mass, it is not the entire Mass. The Mass itself is a celebration. Even the Table of Context for the GIRM defines the distict ‘parts’ of the Mass:

1. General Structure of the Mass
2. The Different Elements of the Mass
3. The Individual Parts of the Mass
   a. The Introductory Rites
   b. The Liturgy of the Word
   c. The Ligurgy of the Eucharist
   d. The Concluding Rites.

Yes, the Eucharist is the peak and summit of our purpose of the Mass, but that doesn’t mean the significance of the parts leading to it and flowing from it are to be diminished. They serve a specific function.

No one should be applauding during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and no one here is advocating that. There are, obviously, per the examples of the Pope, Archbishops, Bishops and Priests appropriate moments where applause can be allowed, even required.

It isn’t written anywhere that it could or should, but it isn’t written anywhere that it can’t or shouldn’t. The closest any of us has been able to find is “should not be encouraged” at the risk of it becoming an appeared norm.

Bottom line for me, is I respect the Pope, the Archbishops, Bishops and Priests to lead me by example, especially when word is not available.

I am only opposed to anyone declaring outright as fact that appluase does not belong in the Mass in any way, shape or form because that is obviously not fact since we have countless authentic examples which indicate otherwise.

 

[MrS]

YinYangMom:

What people forget is that the Eucharist is part of the Mass, it is not the entire Mass. The Mass itself is a celebration.

But only the Liturgy of the Word was for the early Christian-to-be. He was not able to participate in the Liturgy of the Eucharist until he was baptized into the Church. Doesn’t that tell us it is something pretty special??? And not open to all?

We celebrate Christ"s death and resurection, not ourselves. Yes?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

buffalo:

Anything that is not proscribed can fall under abuse. The rubrics do not say what we cannot do, they say what we should do and do not address every crazy innovation anyone comes up with. What you are claiming is a sort of legalism that if we do not see a document expressly forbidding something we can do it. This is not so!

This is an excellent point that seems to go completely over the head of the hand-holders and hand-clappers.

Just because something is not explicitly forbidden, does not mean it is allowed.

Examples of things not explicitly forbidden during Holy Mass:

• Grabbing your neighbor’s…left earlobe during the Our Father.
• Barbequing burnt ends in the choir loft during the Agnus Dei.
• Having the congregation give a shout-out to all their homies during the Prayers of the Faithful.
• Singing John Denver’s “Thank God I’m a Country Boy” during the Offertory.
• Doing “The Wave” during the Responsorial Psalm.

Using the implacable logic of the hand-holders, all these things would be appropriate at Mass barring a specific ban from the Holy See. As for local bishops encouraging applause, what can I say? We all know every bishop has only the best interest of the Church at heart and every bishop slavishly follows the liturgical norms laid down by the Church. Yes, indeed, we all know that, don’t we? Respecting our shepherds does not mean we are obligated to adopt clericalism.

YinYangMom:

It’s not so much that you have to because the Church orders you to. It’s that when a priest, representing the Church at the moment, asks the entire congregation to participate in somethingthen everyone should be respectful of that request and comply - even if it makes one uncomfortable. Out of love, obedience and respect** we defer our own feelings, opinions to the priest** (the Church, in this moment).

I once attended Mass where the priest invited the congregation to join him in saying the “through Him, with Him, in Him.” I refused and my conscience is clear. When a priest takes it upon himself to add things to the liturgy of a questionable nature, I’d say the faithful have an obligation to **defer the opinions of the priest to the mind of the Church. **

Those, of course, who have eyes to see recognize the absolute inappropriateness of these actions. This is a symptom of the casualness that has ingrained itself into our culture. Jeans and t-shirts have replaced coat and tie as the common attire at Mass. This casualness has now infected even the celebration of Holy Mass. With all the approved “options” and the progressive types pushing harder and harder for unapproved “options” not specifically banned, we are awash in a sea of nonchalant navel-gazing.

Perhaps the rubrics of the Traditional Mass are a bit rigid. I concede that. But the new Mass has taken it to the opposite extreme. There’s nothing wrong with a certain formality and reverence in worship. Too often it is completely absent. Jesus Christ is the same God who only allowed one priest to approach Him in the Holy of Holies in ancient Israel. He is the same God who made Moses take off his shoes because he was standing on Holy Ground. Are we to assume that God, Who never changes, is now our best bud and we can just throw our arm around Jesus’ shoulder and say, “Hi, pal!” I think we presume too much if that is our attitude.

As for the question of applause at the Traditional Mass, I’ve never heard it. Even when our good bishop came to speak, he was not given any applause inside the church. However, after Mass in our parish hall, he got a warm round of applause. Our good bishop is much loved by the Traditionalist community, and we can’t say enough good things about him.

 

[YinYangMom]

Dr. Bombay:

I once attended Mass where the priest invited the congregation to join him in saying the “through Him, with Him, in Him.” I refused and my conscience is clear. When a priest takes it upon himself to add things to the liturgy of a questionable nature, I’d say the faithful have an obligation to **defer the opinions of the priest to the mind of the Church.
**

That is clearly a priest messing with the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Of course you were correct to not comply.

Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

The topic is applause at appropriate times for appropriate reasons during the mass as we’ve witnessed by the Pope, Archbishops, Bishops and priests.

Those, of course, who have eyes to see recognize the absolute inappropriateness of these actions.

Applause at appropriate times for appropriate reasons during the mass as we’ve witnessed by the Pope, Archbishops, Bishops and priests is not absolute inappropriateness. If eyes see it that way then those eyes are not clear.

Perhaps the rubrics of the Traditional Mass are a bit rigid. I concede that. But the new Mass has taken it to the opposite extreme.

Pope Benedict disagrees, as does the recent Synod. The New Mass has not taken it to the oppposite extreme. Abuses by certain parishes have and those are about to be remedied.

Speaking of rubrics - since they are different between the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo and the masses we witnessed with applause were Novus Ordo then I wouldn’t expect it to be part of the Tridentine.

As for the question of applause at the Traditional Mass, I’ve never heard it. Even when our good bishop came to speak, he was not given any applause inside the church. However, after Mass in our parish hall, he got a warm round of applause. Our good bishop is much loved by the Traditionalist community, and we can’t say enough good things about him.

Thanks for sharing that insight. It took a while to get a response to the good question, I appreciate your taking the time to answer it.

 

[YinYangMom]

MrS:

But only the Liturgy of the Word was for the early Christian-to-be. He was not able to participate in the Liturgy of the Eucharist until he was baptized into the Church. Doesn’t that tell us it is something pretty special??? And not open to all?

We celebrate Christ"s death and resurection, not ourselves. Yes?

We never celebrate ourselves. Even when we applaud for people during the Mass it’s not the people we are applauding but the work of Christ accomplished in our midst through them.

With regard to the liturgy - from the “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chapter 1: General Principles for the Reform and Promotion of the Sacred Liturgy”

"8. ** In the earthly liturgy we take part in a foretaste of that heavenly liturgy celebreated in the holy city of Jerusalem toward which we journey as pilgrims**, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, a minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle; we sing a hym to the Lord’s glory with the whole company of heaven; venerating the memory of the saints, we hope for some part and fellowship with them; we eagerly await the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, until he, our life, shall appear and we too will appear with him in glory.

1. ** Still, the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the church is directed**; at the same time it is the fount from which all the Church’s power flows. For the aim and object of apostolic works is that all who are made children of God by faith and baptism should come together to praise God in the midst of his Church, to take part in the sacrifice, and to eat the Lord’s Supper."