Hand Clapping During Mass

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YinYangMom:
That is clearly a priest messing with the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Of course you were correct to not comply.

Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

The topic is applause at appropriate times for appropriate reasons during the mass as we’ve witnessed by the Pope, Archbishops, Bishops and priests.
Sorry, you didn’t specify. You said if a priest invites us to do something, we should do it out of obedience.

If you give me an “apple,” am I wrong to point out the rich citrusy odor emanating from it?
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YinYangMom:
Applause at appropriate times for appropriate reasons during the mass as we’ve witnessed by the Pope, Archbishops, Bishops and priests is not absolute inappropriateness. If eyes see it that way then those eyes are not clear.
You’re right. If I could just get this darn beam out of my eye, I’d see a lot clearer. 😃
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YinYangMom:
Pope Benedict disagrees, as does the recent Synod. The New Mass has not taken it to the oppposite extreme. Abuses by certain parishes have and those are about to be remedied.
Uh huh. And we’ve all seen how eager bishops and priests are to immediately implement directives from the Holy See. :nope:

The new Mass **has **taken it to the opposite extreme, as a comparison between the rubrics of the Traditional Mass and the Pauline Mass will quickly demonstrate. Even when celebrated exactly to the letter, the Pauline Mass doesn’t have near the structure or formality of the Traditional Mass. Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your perspective.
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YinYangMom:
Speaking of rubrics - since they are different between the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo and the masses we witnessed with applause were Novus Ordo then I wouldn’t expect it to be part of the Tridentine.

Thanks for sharing that insight. It took a while to get a response to the good question, I appreciate your taking the time to answer it.
No prob. :tiphat:
 
Dr. Bombay:
This is an excellent point that seems to go completely over the head of the hand-holders and hand-clappers.

Just because something is not explicitly forbidden, does not mean it is allowed.

Examples of things not explicitly forbidden during Holy Mass:
  • Grabbing your neighbor’s…left earlobe during the Our Father.
  • Barbequing burnt ends in the choir loft during the Agnus Dei.
  • Having the congregation give a shout-out to all their homies during the Prayers of the Faithful.
  • Singing John Denver’s “Thank God I’m a Country Boy” during the Offertory.
  • Doing “The Wave” during the Responsorial Psalm.
Using the implacable logic of the hand-holders, all these things would be appropriate at Mass barring a specific ban from the Holy See. As for local bishops encouraging applause, what can I say? We all know every bishop has only the best interest of the Church at heart and every bishop slavishly follows the liturgical norms laid down by the Church. Yes, indeed, we all know that, don’t we? Respecting our shepherds does not mean we are obligated to adopt clericalism.

I once attended Mass where the priest invited the congregation to join him in saying the “through Him, with Him, in Him.” I refused and my conscience is clear. When a priest takes it upon himself to add things to the liturgy of a questionable nature, I’d say the faithful have an obligation to **defer the opinions of the priest to the mind of the Church. **
It is absolutely amazing how those of us who are trying to say and successfully shown that there are times in Mass when hand clapping is appropriate but also required, are being compared to “hand holders”. (Not to mention contraception and other things in previous posts by others)
From CA Ask the Apologist
There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.
It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
Hand holding during the Our Father is never appropriate. Clapping does have appropriate times.

And that is mine and others point. Just because some parishes abuse clapping does not mean that it is not warranted for special occassions.
 
Dr. Bombay:
As for the question of applause at the Traditional Mass, I’ve never heard it. Even when our good bishop came to speak, he was not given any applause inside the church. However, after Mass in our parish hall, he got a warm round of applause. Our good bishop is much loved by the Traditionalist community, and we can’t say enough good things about him. 🙂
And why should he have received applause? The special occassions here involved have to do with clapping for God’s Grace made visible, First Communion, 50 years of Marriage, Seeing the Holy Spirit shining on a young man’s face as he thanks everyone present, etc.

Although special as in the Bishop rarely comes to speak, this is not the kind of special occassion we have been arguing for.
 
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MariaG:
It is absolutely amazing how those of us who are trying to say and successfully shown that there are times in Mass when hand clapping is appropriate but also required, are being compared to “hand holders”. (Not to mention contraception and other things in previous posts by others)
Code:
                           From CA [Ask the Apologist](http://showthread.php?t=14871&highlight=clapping)
There are times during the liturgy when clapping is not only appropriate, it is required. During the ordination rite when the bishop asks for evidence that the man before him ought to be ordained to the priesthood, the congregation applauds its approval. But this does not mean that clapping is always appropriate.

It is important to remember what Mass is. It is the sacrifice of Calvary brought concretely into our lives on the altar. If we were standing at the foot of the cross so many years ago, would we really want to clap?

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Hand holding during the Our Father is never appropriate. Clapping does have appropriate times.

And that is mine and others point. Just because some parishes abuse clapping does not mean that it is not warranted for special occassions.
My apologies. I’m such a dope. I didn’t realize the Deposit of Faith rests in San Diego, California instead of Rome.
 
posted by** Dr. Bombay**
My apologies. I’m such a dope. I didn’t realize the Deposit of Faith rests in San Diego, California instead of Rome.
Orionthehunter said:
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Have you been able to see the picture I tried to post (post #92) The man standing and clapping next to the seated newly ordained Archbishop Gullickson is Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, Secretariat of State for the Vatican who reports to the Vatican Secretary who I think is directly under the Pope.
P.S. If you can’t see the picture, please PM me with directions on how to get it in my post.
Attached Imageshttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/attach/jpg.gifimage001.jpg (28.5 KB, 22 views)
 
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MariaG:
It is absolutely amazing how those of us who are trying to say and successfully shown that there are times in Mass when hand clapping is appropriate but also required, are being compared to “hand holders”. (Not to mention contraception and other things in previous posts by others)

Hand holding during the Our Father is never appropriate. Clapping does have appropriate times.

And that is mine and others point. Just because some parishes abuse clapping does not mean that it is not warranted for special occassions.
Maybe the real problem is that it is open to too much interpretation. Obviously, there are some parishes who clap at the drop of a hat, and others that practice it only on special occasions. I hope we will see some definition from the Church on what is considered appropriate, along with proper instruction from the priests.

Above all, the ceremonies of the Mass should give honour to God, and impress upon the faithful the sublimity of the Holy Sacrifice.
 
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paramedicgirl:
Maybe the real problem is that it is open to too much interpretation. Obviously, there are some parishes who clap at the drop of a hat, and others that practice it only on special occasions. I hope we will see some definition from the Church on what is considered appropriate, along with proper instruction from the priests.

Above all, the ceremonies of the Mass should give honour to God, and impress upon the faithful the sublimity of the Holy Sacrifice.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. We should be able to rely on those in authority over us, but obviously they fail to use common sense in (name removed by moderator)lementing so many things. Then we will just be left with problem parishners who continue to do things even when instructed otherwise.
 
I always clap for the liturgical dancers!!
😃

Seriously, at the end of Mass we always clap for the youth choir and the great singing of praise, for the achievement of someone, etc. That seems ok there to me, but not during the Mass.
 
Rebecca New:
I always clap for the liturgical dancers!!
😃

Seriously, at the end of Mass we always clap for the youth choir and the great singing of praise, for the achievement of someone, etc. That seems ok there to me, but not during the Mass.
At the end of Mass. Do you mean after Mass has ended, ie “Mass is ended, go now to love and…” or when?

God Bless,
Maria
 
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MrS:
Agreed. Christ is present everywhere… but we don’t go outside and worship a tree. Some may choose to hug the tree, however.:whistle:

But… the Real Presence of Christ is the purpose of the Mass, not His presence in my neighbor. Our direction, during the Mass should always be toward the Real Presence…period.

That is the distinction between vertical and horizontal. YYM, by now you should have gotten the point.
The Real Presence is the exclusive purpose of Eucharistic Adoration. In the Mass, we are called to bring ourselves totally mind, body, and soul to the experience the fullness of Christ. We experience Christ in the Priest as celebrant, in the Living Word, in the faithful gathered around us (we are to be Christ for others and see Christ in others), and preeminently in the Eucharist. Each of these “personas” of Christ have their “moment” during the Mass. To ignore these “moments” does a disservice to the completeness of the Mass.

Let me tell you a story which might explain why I was so attentive to this thread. After my Pastor had been at the Parish a year, he had a parish meeting. He specifically targeted those parishioners whose envelope was in the plate at least 3 of 4 weekends (we have 8 parishes in our town so there are opportunity to attend other Masses plus to provide for travel) and those who were active on a committee.

He began by reading the story of the Prodigal Son. Normally, the emphasis is on the son who left home. That evening Father made the story about the “good son”. He said that is how he sees those gathered around him as they were living the Catholic life and sharing their time, talent and treasure with the Church. Those there knew what it took to live a good Catholic Life.

He went on to talk about the focus of his Pastorate was going to be everyone else. He wanted us to help him reach out to those having a harder time living the Catholic life. He asked us to look for those alone amongst us at Mass. Notice the spouse who doesn’t come up to Communion for the blessing. Mixed faith families have a great deal of stress and we need to make these non-Catholics feel welcome (I think the fact that our RCIA class has been overflowing is a testament to this effort).

He asked us to notice a person who only occassionally sits in our area during Mass as it might mean they don’t come to Mass every week. Be warm and inviting both when we “stand and introduce ourselves” prior to the Entrance hymn and again during the Sign of Peace. Chat with them as you depart the worship space and church building (he said when he gives the final blessing and reminds us of our call to go spread the Good News that Christ doesn’t want us to “spread it only to the choir”.) If you see this person around town, be sure to let them know that you missed them at Mass.

Finally, it is within this spirit of reaching out to the more “prodigal” Catholics that caused me to so adamantly defend “clapping” during the Concluding Rite (I abhor it otherwise just to be clear). We can talk in the ideal world that certain things should happen after Mass or in the parish hall. Unfortunately, in the real world, Father would lose the chance to get to thes prodigal Catholics. These are the people who “bolt” after Mass. Additionally, we don’t have a parish hall but only a gym in the school.

Approximately, once a month (excluding the High Holiday seasons of Advent and Lent), Father tries to have one weekend dedicated to a special occassion. Every year, each scheduled Mass (i.e. Saturday night, Sunday 8 a.m, 9:30 and 11 a.m.-not always the same weekend as babies don’t come according to Father’s schedule 🙂 ) a Baptism is incorporated in the Mass according to the GIRM. It gives him a chance to extol our Christian calling we rec’d at our Baptism. Afterwards, he introduces the newly baptized to the parish and we all clap in support and appreciation. He does the same thing with the 1st Communicants. And of course, the Bishop does the same thing when he comes for Confirmation.

Annually, he has a married couple talk. Sometimes it is one that has been a “perfect” Catholic couple who we always find out isn’t so perfect 🙂 . Other times, it is one that has been troubled and but by the grace of God they overcame their challenge. We always applause afterwards in support and appreciation.

He does the same thing on topics like vocations, Stewardship (time, talent, treasure each get their own weekend), every few years on devotions (Eucharistic Adoration, novenas, pilgrimages, retreats, etc.) and a few other subjects as I’m sure I can’t recall them all.

In conclusion, my point is that we get a very reverrent and majestic Mass every Sunday. During Father’s time in our parish (5-6 years now), our pews are fuller and the Holy Spirit is overflowing.
 
I belong to a large Catholic Church in Jacksonville FL and we do a lot of clapping! never during the actual part of mass. last week, at the end of the servace, someone gave a short talk on our devine mercy house which is being built to help pregnant woman find an alternatitive to abortion. what’s wrong with clapping for that??? This weekend was the feast of Christ the King. we sang “soon and very soon, we are going to see the king. soon and very soon, we are going to see the king! allaluya allaluya, we’re going to see the King!” and the whole congragation was singing along and claping. We were getting excited about Jesus. what’s wring with clapping for that? we don’t clap druing the cummunion hymm or after the homoly (although once, Fr. gave a VERY powerful talk on abortion and had everyone crying and some people clapped and shouted ‘Ahmen’. what’s wrong with that? we clap and shout at football games and for rock stars. how much more should be getting excited over our lord and savior Jesus Christ??? we should be reverent and respectful, yes, but if the spirit moves people to clap their hands, don’t hold them back in their worship! you’ll just turn them away. soften your heart a little bit and stop quoting the law all the time!
just take a look at my signature! it’s scripture!
 
Orionthehunter said:
The Real Presence is the exclusive purpose of Eucharistic Adoration. In the Mass, we are called to bring ourselves totally mind, body, and soul to the experience the fullness of Christ. We experience Christ in the Priest as celebrant, in the Living Word, in the faithful gathered around us (we are to be Christ for others and see Christ in others), and preeminently in the Eucharist. Each of these “personas” of Christ have their “moment” during the Mass. To ignore these “moments” does a disservice to the completeness of the Mass.

.

I ask you to explain this again… only because I am totally confused by what you might mean

Adoration is idolatry if the Real Presence in not true.?? Yes?
Real Presence requires a valid Mass, and an ordained priest?? Yes?

I just don’t go to mass to “experience” the faithful around me. They don’t even have to be there for the Mass to be the Mass. The liturgy of the Word, and the liturgy of the Eucharist are the only requirements for a Mass. And they can only be valid under rubrics (priest, words, postions, gestures, etc etc.)

As for your pews being full… good. But not impressive… the most full “pews” in the country are at the Houston Astrodome/Church and that is because of the fellowship and total weakness of theology displayed.

Give me a Mass attended by 5 reverent Catholics over one attended by 5000 “smiling” Catholics anyday.
 
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SueKrum:
just take a look at my signature! it’s scripture!
I don’t see anything about the liturgy in your signature.
Just as one would not sing Happy Birthday at a Funeral even if it was being held on a mourner’s birthday, some things are not for the liturgy.

And let me add that I am at one of the most traditional Catholic Churches in our area (Thank You Holy Lord). We reserve applause for the END only. Just before the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel after the parish annoucements. Two weekends ago, I was blessed to be at two of our six Sunday Masses. Our Pastor announced that our Dear Fr. Val turned 89. Applause was resounding.
 
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SueKrum:
but if the spirit moves people to clap their hands, don’t hold them back in their worship! you’ll just turn them away. soften your heart a little bit and stop quoting the law all the time!
The reverse argument may be even more true. Stop following the rubrics and live through our feelings and more folks may be turned away. See, it works both ways, that is why the rubrics need to be observed.
 
The point about my signature is that it quotes scripture telling us to clap for the lord. does that mean that we should be makeing a ruccus to disturb mass? no, but if someone is moved by the spirit every now and then, it’s not evil! When the priest says something funny in his homoly, people laugh, are they not supposed to? So when a priest gets up there and encourages his flock to go out, be brave and tell the world the truth and gets some people really moved and they clap in aggreenment, what’s wrong with that?

Good for you that your church is traditional! But just because we have a drummer in our choir doesn’t make our church inferiour to yours. We’ve had so many miricles at St. Joseph’s in Fax FL and the people are so alive with the Holy Spirt, I don’t think Jesus is displeased with us clapping every now and then. Because all the clapping is for Him and in His name and I’m sorry if that bothers you.

I don’t know why it has to be all or nothing, frankly. is clapping an evil act? If someone gets so excited about receiving the Eukerest and they say “ahmen” a little too loud, are they committing a sin? We should be thanking God that they are there and so full of love for Him that they are overwhelmed!

Fine, there’s no clapping in your church. that’s OK. no one HAS to clap if that’s not their way. it wasn’t my dad’s way. he was very quiet in mass. Me, I have to hold on to the pew sometimes because I get so excited about Jesus! I’ve almost fainted in the communion line before out of excitement and hiperventolation. (it’s all I can do to not skip instead of walking up there) That’s just the way God made me. I’m very emotional and I demonstrate my emotions out loud and people like you make people like me feel like we are doing something wrong when we get excited in church.

At my rowdy church, during the communion prayers and the “Lamb of God” everyone has their heads bowed and are praying silently and perpairing themselves for the Lord. No one is shouting out and clapping then. it’s approprately reverent.
 
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fix:
The reverse argument may be even more true. Stop following the rubrics and live through our feelings and more folks may be turned away. See, it works both ways, that is why the rubrics need to be observed.
You’re right about that. that’s the problem with the pentacostles. all speaking in tongues and nothing else. But, I was simply arguing that clapping is not always bad. I’ve been in about 25 or so different churches and have never seen the servace get “out of controle”. I’ll let you know what happens at the charasmatic catholic confrence in feb. never been to one, so maybe I’ll see more of what the complaint is about. but right now, it doesn’t seem to be a problem in any church I’ve been to.
 
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MrS:
I ask you to explain this again… only because I am totally confused by what you might mean

Adoration is idolatry if the Real Presence in not true.?? Yes?
Real Presence requires a valid Mass, and an ordained priest?? Yes?

I just don’t go to mass to “experience” the faithful around me. They don’t even have to be there for the Mass to be the Mass. The liturgy of the Word, and the liturgy of the Eucharist are the only requirements for a Mass. And they can only be valid under rubrics (priest, words, postions, gestures, etc etc.)

As for your pews being full… good. But not impressive… the most full “pews” in the country are at the Houston Astrodome/Church and that is because of the fellowship and total weakness of theology displayed.

Give me a Mass attended by 5 reverent Catholics over one attended by 5000 “smiling” Catholics anyday.
I’m not sure what you are referring to above (see bolded). All I meant to say is that Eucharistic Adoration is a private devotion. Sunday Mass (as compared to a private Mass or daily Mass) is a public worship that REQUIRES a community of faithful.

If the only time you encounter Christ at Mass is in the Real Presence, you are missing out the other ways that Christ is physically present (the Priest, the Living Word, and in the faithful among you). Understanding this is a lesson unable to fully explain w/i the limits allowed by CAF. I refer you to the following from Pope John Paul II ( usccb.org/liturgy/current/jp2.shtml ) which address this better than I could.

The following are some excerpts:

Community liturgy helps the members of the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church to live the mystery of Christ in time. It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of gathering for Mass on the Lord’s day. The early Christians understood this well: “We live under the observance of the Lord’s day [the day] when our life is raised by him and by his death … how could we live without him?” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, To the Magnesians, 9, 1-2). Weekly attendance at the Sunday Eucharist and the cycle of the liturgical year make it possible to give a rhythm to Christian life and to sanctify time, which the risen Lord opens to the blessed eternity of the kingdom. Pastoral care will see that the liturgy is not isolated from the rest of Christian life: for the faithful are invited daily to continue their common liturgical practice in daily private prayer; this spiritual discipline gives new vigor to the witness of the faith lived by Christians each day, and also to the fraternal service of the poor and to one’s neighbor in general. The pastoral care of the liturgy, which cannot end at the church door suggests to each one that he should unify his life and his actions.

The liturgy, which expresses the Church’s proper nature and is a source for the mission, is given to us by the Church herself to glorify God: thus its laws, which should be respected by distinguishing the different roles carried out by ordained ministers and by lay people. Whatever directs believers to God, what gathers them and what unites them with one another and with all the other assemblies should be given priority. The Council was clear on this matter: “Pastors of souls must, therefore, realize that when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the laws governing valid and lawful celebration. It is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite and enriched by it” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 11).

The celebrants and leaders must help the assembly enter into a liturgical celebration which is not merely their own production but is an act of the whole Church.

At a practical level, I will add that it is important to attend to the quality of the signs, without however showing “elitism”, for Christ’s followers, whatever their culture, must be able to recognize in the words and actions the Lord’s presence in his Church and the gifts of his grace. The first sign is that of the assembly itself. Having gathered together, the community in a way gives hospitality to Christ and to the people he loves. Everyone’s attitude counts, for the liturgical assembly is the first image the Church gives of herself, invited to the Lord’s banquet.

Next, it is in the Church that the word of God is authentically proclaimed, a word venerated because it is a living word in which the Spirit dwells. Every care must be given to reading by the various ministers of the word, who will have interiorized it so that it will reach the faithful as a true light and a force for the present. On the priests’ part, the homily requires meditation and assimilation so that they can impart the meaning of the word and enable the faithful really to adhere to it and carry it out in their daily tasks.
 
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MrS:
I ask you to explain this again… only because I am totally confused by what you might mean

Adoration is idolatry if the Real Presence in not true.?? Yes?
Real Presence requires a valid Mass, and an ordained priest?? Yes?

I just don’t go to mass to “experience” the faithful around me. They don’t even have to be there for the Mass to be the Mass. The liturgy of the Word, and the liturgy of the Eucharist are the only requirements for a Mass. And they can only be valid under rubrics (priest, words, postions, gestures, etc etc.)

As for your pews being full… good. But not impressive… the most full “pews” in the country are at the Houston Astrodome/Church and that is because of the fellowship and total weakness of theology displayed.

Give me a Mass attended by 5 reverent Catholics over one attended by 5000 “smiling” Catholics anyday.
This is a continuation of my previous post.

I also refer you to consider this portion of the Preamble to the GIRM by the USCCB Committee on the Liturgy:
  1. In addition, the nature of the ministerial priesthood also puts into its proper light another reality, which must indeed be highly regarded, namely, the royal priesthood of the faithful, whose spiritual sacrifice is brought to completeness through the ministry of the Bishop and the priests in union with the sacrifice of Christ, the one and only Mediator. ** For the celebration of the Eucharist is an action of the whole Church**, and in it each one should carry out solely but completely that which pertains to him or her, in virtue of the rank of each within the People of God. In this way greater consideration will also be given to some aspects of the celebration that have sometimes been accorded less attention in the course of time. For this people is the People of God, purchased by Christ’s Blood, gathered together by the Lord, nourished by his word. It is a people called to bring to God the prayers of the entire human family, a people giving thanks in Christ for the mystery of salvation by offering his Sacrifice. Finally, it is a people made one by by sharing in the Communion of Christ’s Body and Blood. Though holy in its origin, this people nevertheless grows continually in holiness by its conscious, active, and fruitful participation in the mystery of the Eucharist.10
An example of our role in the Mass is during the Sign of Peace when we reach out physically and tell our fellow worshippers that we accept their petition for forgiveness of their venial sins in the Confiteor and that we love and appreciate them as Children of God.

The web site for the above is usccb.org/liturgy/current/preamble.shtml
 
Dear Orion,

**
“Pastors of souls must, therefore, realize that when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the laws
governing valid and lawful celebration. It is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite and enriched by it” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 11).

So beautiful! You are doing an excellent job of bringing these truths to light.

:blessyou:

Carole**
 
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