Hand holding in the OF during the OF

[Melchior_1]

Because it seems that the Charismatic Movement itself is a fad thing.

We’re going to get into this? Sure, why not.

The term “charismatic renewal” has only been around for a couple of decades. The concept and the items associated with it have been around since the time of the Apostles, and have continued over 2000+ years. There are a couple Church Fathers who seem to talk as if what we call the “charismatic gifts” are still around during their time.

The Franciscans and Dominicans have long had members of their Order exhibit signs associated with the charismatic. Several of them weren’t even Saints, but plain old folks like you and I. The founders themselves displayed charismatic tendencies int he spiritual sense.

Prominent folks who have displayed signs of being charismatic; Francis, Dominic, Catherine, Therese, Maximilian, and Karol. What do most of these folks have in common? Catholic Mysticism. I would argue that all the charismatic renewal is doing is tapping into the mystical theology the Church has to offer.

Popes who have endorsed the movement calling it essential:

• Pope Paul VI
• Blessed John Paul II.
• Pope Benedict XVI

The same Benedict XVI who has made certain that the Extraordinary Form is free to be said is also encouraging the charismatic renewal Telling, no?

Several charismatic materials have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, which means that they are free from doctrinal error and Rome has said “let t hem be printed”. If there were doctrinal problems these documents would not have been printed, but suppressed. And surely the current Pope would have quashed them in his previous role.

The Companions of the Cross are a charismatic Society of Apostolic Life. They were founded with charismatic being one of their four pillars. If the charismatic movement were to be a bad thing, then the group would not have received approval to continue their work. Instead, they’re growing and are taking over parishes in my city.

And finally, there are some things within the Church that people probably said “it’s a fad, it would never catch on”. Like Catholicism itself.

Comments like what you said bother me a bit, because if people turned around and made similar comments about traditionalist items you’d be furious. It’s like if I said “the Latin Mass resurgence is a fad, sooner or later everyone will want to go vernacular”.

Then again, the charismatic renewal is a traditionalist practice. It’s been practiced for all intents and purposes for a couple thousand years, after all.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Whether you enjoy holding hands or not, this is not what this thread was originally about. I thought it was originally an question - steered towards traditional Catholics - that asked if we thought that anything of “organic” origin was acceptable. And If so, some examples were asked for.

Big_Feet gave several example that he thought of:

“More recent organic additions…
The crossing of the forehead, lips, and heart at the proclimation of the Gospel.
The sign of the cross.
Bowing to the alter in reverence.
Striking ones breast during the confietior.”

I am not sure I agree without more of an explanation.
Could you explain please Big_Foot?

 

[elibrimom]

Nice speech, but as to why one can not hold hands of a loved one, I must have missed. I myself would feel the mysticism more deeply if I had a loved one to share with and to discuss later with rather than staring into space by myself. But if you feel this so called fad is better felt not holding hands more power to you.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Whenever I see this statement “horizontal practice”, I just shake my head.

Yes, Mass is about God, ***and ***it is also about the faithful joing together to worship Him.
Vertical is important, and so is horizontal!
Remember, without both, we do not have the cross!!

The Mass isn’t about us, even though the Mass is for us. It’s entirely about Christ.

God Bless Friend.

 

[Irish_Polock]

We’re going to get into this? Sure, why not.

The term “charismatic renewal” has only been around for a couple of decades. The concept and the items associated with it have been around since the time of the Apostles, and have continued over 2000+ years. There are a couple Church Fathers who seem to talk as if what we call the “charismatic gifts” are still around during their time.

The Franciscans and Dominicans have long had members of their Order exhibit signs associated with the charismatic. Several of them weren’t even Saints, but plain old folks like you and I. The founders themselves displayed charismatic tendencies int he spiritual sense.

Prominent folks who have displayed signs of being charismatic; Francis, Dominic, Catherine, Therese, Maximilian, and Karol. What do most of these folks have in common? Catholic Mysticism. I would argue that all the charismatic renewal is doing is tapping into the mystical theology the Church has to offer.

Popes who have endorsed the movement calling it essential:

• Pope Paul VI
• Blessed John Paul II.
• Pope Benedict XVI

The same Benedict XVI who has made certain that the Extraordinary Form is free to be said is also encouraging the charismatic renewal Telling, no?

Several charismatic materials have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, which means that they are free from doctrinal error and Rome has said “let t hem be printed”. If there were doctrinal problems these documents would not have been printed, but suppressed. And surely the current Pope would have quashed them in his previous role.

The Companions of the Cross are a charismatic Society of Apostolic Life. They were founded with charismatic being one of their four pillars. If the charismatic movement were to be a bad thing, then the group would not have received approval to continue their work. Instead, they’re growing and are taking over parishes in my city.

And finally, there are some things within the Church that people probably said “it’s a fad, it would never catch on”. Like Catholicism itself.

Comments like what you said bother me a bit, because if people turned around and made similar comments about traditionalist items you’d be furious. It’s like if I said “the Latin Mass resurgence is a fad, sooner or later everyone will want to go vernacular”.

Then again, the charismatic renewal is a traditionalist practice. It’s been practiced for all intents and purposes for a couple thousand years, after all.

Were gonna have to disagree on most of this, many Popes endorsed many things that in retrospect turned out to be detrimental to our Church, but this is not the topic, start a new thread if you care to explain the validity of your movement.

 

[Melchior_1]

Were gonna have to disagree on most of this, many Popes endorsed many things that in retrospect turned out to be detrimental to our Church, but this is not the topic, start a new thread if you care to explain the validity of your movement.

I was responding to the other posts, yours included, that brought up charismaticism. And it’s quite applicable, as calling something a fad when it’s qualities have been around for 2000 years isn’t accurate.

 

[jam070406]

We’re going to get into this? Sure, why not.

The term “charismatic renewal” has only been around for a couple of decades. The concept and the items associated with it have been around since the time of the Apostles, and have continued over 2000+ years. There are a couple Church Fathers who seem to talk as if what we call the “charismatic gifts” are still around during their time.

The Franciscans and Dominicans have long had members of their Order exhibit signs associated with the charismatic. Several of them weren’t even Saints, but plain old folks like you and I. The founders themselves displayed charismatic tendencies int he spiritual sense.

Prominent folks who have displayed signs of being charismatic; Francis, Dominic, Catherine, Therese, Maximilian, and Karol. What do most of these folks have in common? Catholic Mysticism. I would argue that all the charismatic renewal is doing is tapping into the mystical theology the Church has to offer.

Popes who have endorsed the movement calling it essential:

• Pope Paul VI
• Blessed John Paul II.
• Pope Benedict XVI

The same Benedict XVI who has made certain that the Extraordinary Form is free to be said is also encouraging the charismatic renewal Telling, no?

Several charismatic materials have the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, which means that they are free from doctrinal error and Rome has said “let t hem be printed”. If there were doctrinal problems these documents would not have been printed, but suppressed. And surely the current Pope would have quashed them in his previous role.

The Companions of the Cross are a charismatic Society of Apostolic Life. They were founded with charismatic being one of their four pillars. If the charismatic movement were to be a bad thing, then the group would not have received approval to continue their work. Instead, they’re growing and are taking over parishes in my city.

And finally, there are some things within the Church that people probably said “it’s a fad, it would never catch on”. Like Catholicism itself.

Comments like what you said bother me a bit, because if people turned around and made similar comments about traditionalist items you’d be furious. It’s like if I said “the Latin Mass resurgence is a fad, sooner or later everyone will want to go vernacular”.

Then again, the charismatic renewal is a traditionalist practice. It’s been practiced for all intents and purposes for a couple thousand years, after all.

I disagree with this. The Charismatic movement was born in the 1960’s. I’m not even sure the Popes mentioned had any sort of hands on experience with what goes on at Charismatic prayer meetings, so I take any endorsement with a grain of salt.

I also don’t believe that people throughout History who displayed gifts of the Holy Spirit are an indication that this same movement has always been around. And I find it hard to believe that Saints, in their humility, would attend a Charismatic meeting or Mass with the intention of seeking gifts from the Holy Spirit.

 

[ndeparis88]

I personally never liked the idea of holding hands for a couple reasons.

One is, why during the Our Father? Do we really want to give the parishioners the impression “now we’re holding hands because now we’re praying together, the rest of the time we just daydream.” It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Also - just a personal opinion - I don’t like the taste it leaves in my mouth. Very kumbaya-let’s all get together - dare I say it, quasi-liberal. It seems like an interruption of the reverent mood of the mass.

But that’s just me, a cranky old man before age 20

lol! props for the spiel. I hold hand with my Mom sometimes but I always do the hold out of hands thing. For me it symbolizes that it’s an extra plead for grace you know a reverent thing that is in supplement to the kneeling. But I think it should be done to cole people like family or your spouse and kids.

 

[jam070406]

I do not at the time have anyone to hold hands with, but if I did, I would. I believe my God would smile upon it. I am shocked such a discussion even exists. The God I believe in is ALL loving, therefore, my hand holding of one I love would make my God smile. Shaking my head in confusion.

I don’t think an All loving God would have a problem with those that don’t wish to be put in an awkward situation of holding hands with strangers, and desiring that respect from those around them.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I was responding to the other posts, yours included, that brought up charismaticism. And it’s quite applicable, as calling something a fad when it’s qualities have been around for 2000 years isn’t accurate.

Can you cite some sources proving that uniquely Charismatic qualities have been around for 2000 years?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Can you cite some sources proving that uniquely Charismatic qualities have been around for 2000 years?

I can. Speaking in tongues is present in the Bible.

I’m not advocating for the Charismatic movement, but certain qualities they embrace have been present in our Church before there even was a “Charismatic movement.”

 

[Melchior_1]

Can you cite some sources that show that elements of the Charismatic movement have been around for 2000 years?

We’ll make this the last post on this topic before the hand-wrangling gets too out of hand.

I already listed several Saints who exhibited signs of being charismatic. Holy Fathers Dominic & Francis, St. Catherine, and several others.

ETWN has a nice write up on the topic. New Advent has some information as well.

And finally:

. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech, and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole, and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world, having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received freely from God, it ministers also freely.

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 49:2

*Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues, and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the common good and expound the mysteries of God.
*

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 6:1

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I can. Speaking in tongues is present in the Bible.

I’m not advocating for the Charismatic movement, but certain qualities they embrace have been present in our Church before there even was a “Charismatic movement.”

I think ‘speaking in tongues’ is just someone’s interpretation.

I’ll give a few translations of the verse:

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. Acts 2:4 Douay Rheims

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:4 New International Version 1984

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them that ability. Acts 2:4 International Standard Version 2008

 

[jam070406]

I can. Speaking in tongues is present in the Bible.

I’m not advocating for the Charismatic movement, but certain qualities they embrace have been present in our Church before there even was a “Charismatic movement.”

Yes, and doesn’t St. Paul warn of senseless babbling?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think ‘speaking in tongues’ is just someone’s interpretation.

I’ll give a few translations of the verse:

Don’t all of those quotes mean, at least roughly, something similar?

 

[Irish_Polock]

I was responding to the other posts, yours included, that brought up charismaticism. And it’s quite applicable, as calling something a fad when it’s qualities have been around for 2000 years isn’t accurate.

Your movement’s “qualities” looks little like what happened on Pentecost and even less then the early Church had been observed. Regardless, it has yet to be defined, and therefore is inundated with abuse by lay people and clergy alike. Until the CCR is officially, and universally addressed, it is most assuredly just a “fad” and subject to reform, or, even desisted (is that a word?) altogether.

On to the subject at hand, would agree that the “hand holding” was promulgated by unaware Charismatics?

 

[MarcusAndreas]

It’s going to be funny in 1000 years when holding hands is the normative posture throughout the Church and people are going to be amazed and amused to dig up documents from antiquity where this practice was disputed and even condemned.

 

[jam070406]

We’ll make this the last post on this topic before the hand-wrangling gets too out of hand.

I already listed several Saints who exhibited signs of being charismatic. Holy Fathers Dominic & Francis, St. Catherine, and several others.

ETWN has a nice write up on the topic. New Advent has some information as well.

And finally:

. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech, and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole, and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world, having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received freely from God, it ministers also freely.

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 49:2

*Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues, and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the common good and expound the mysteries of God.
*

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 6:1

“In comparison with Charity which is perfect, these gifts are of little consequence and those who are at that level can fall while those who have Charity do not fall. I tell you that I have seen men who have received all the charisms and who have become participants in the Spirit and who nonetheless fell because they did not achieve perfect Charity”. (St. Macarius Magnus, IVth c., Spiritual Homilies, II, 27, 14)

“Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall.” (St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78)

“And I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, ‘God told me,’ ‘God answered me.’ Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution.” (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29) (1)

“Through the desire of accepting them one opens the door to the devil. The devil can then deceive one by other communications expertly feigned and disguised as genuine. In the words of the Apostle, he can transform himself into an ‘angel of light’ (II Cor. XI:14). (…) Regardless of the cause of these apprehensions, it is always good for a man to reject them with closed eyes. If he fails to do so, he will make room for those having a diabolical origin and empower the devil to impose his communications. Not only this, but the diabolical representations will multiply while those from God will gradually cease, so that eventually all will come from the devil and none at all from God. This has occurred with many incautious and uninstructed people.” (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 11) (1)

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Don’t all of those quotes mean, at least roughly, something similar?

Yes, that’s my point. None of them say praying in what seems to me as being gibberish, while waving hands in the air, etc. I could be wrong though.

 

[Irish_Polock]

We’ll make this the last post on this topic before the hand-wrangling gets too out of hand.

I already listed several Saints who exhibited signs of being charismatic. Holy Fathers Dominic & Francis, St. Catherine, and several others.

ETWN has a nice write up on the topic. New Advent has some information as well.

And finally:

. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech, and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole, and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world, having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received freely from God, it ministers also freely.

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2, 49:2

*Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues, and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the common good and expound the mysteries of God.
*

• St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 6:1

You know, I won’t even start, but (comma) you’re not looking at the totality of the Churches teaching. Start a new thread and we can all do it again…