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Brazzy
Guest
How come the “and also with you” and the “we lift them up to the Lord” hand motions seem to be nonexistent in mass these days??? Sometimes I feel like I am the only parishioner actually doing them.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Those aren’t motions that are called for during the Mass. Many people make them, but it’s an innovation on their part rather than something that is part of the Mass.
If you take a look at the GIRM you will see that it says what motions are to be used at various points in the Mass.
For example: 124. Then, facing the people and extending his hands, the priest greets the people, using one of the formulas indicated.
Or 127. The priest then invites the people to pray, saying, **with hands joined, **Oremus (Let us pray). All pray silently with the priest for a brief time. Then the priest, with hands extended, says the Collect, at the end of which the people make the acclamation, Amen.
About the only place I can think of where the people are to gesture is before the Gospel: 134. At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well.
You’ll notice that at the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer there are instructions for the priest, but no similar instructions for the assembly. 148. As he begins the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest extends his hands and sings or says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you). The people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). As he continues, Sursum corda (Lift up your hearts), he raises his hands. The people respond, Habemus ad Dominum (We lift them up to the Lord). Then the priest, with hands outstretched, adds, Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro (Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God), and the people respond, Dignum et iustum est (It is right to give him thanks and praise). Next, the priest, **with hands extended, **continues the Preface. At its conclusion, he joins his hands, and together with everyone present, sings or says aloud the Sanctus (cf. above, no. 79b).
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yinekka
Guest
The only hand motions I have seen are the signs of the cross before the Gospel is read.
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water
Guest
It had never been in the first place. SuscipeMeDomine has good explanation there.
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Crumpy
Guest
I saw something on cable, maybe EWTN, about one of the attitudes of prayer to involve standing with hands uplifted – in biblical times.
We can get used to such things, and they may make us feel more involved. I think they’re good for that reason. It’s worse and maybe even wrong for people to use them in an empty fashion, just because everybody else is doing them.
Our former bishop wanted to add a lot of things, since he said that the congregation still had only about a minutes participation in the Mass, despite all of the innovations to change that. He was somewhat analytical at times; he even videotaped liturgies to provide “constructive” criticism to the celebrants. From the results I can’t say myself that anything was accomplished.
The elements of the Mass are so rich and meaningful, and based on the Bible, as they are. It’s sad that people don’t understand what we have in the Mass, on the one hand, and complain about how boring the Mass is – it’s not. On the other hand, it’s really hard to ‘top’ what is there.
It would be so easy to embellish the Mass with additional scripture. I would consider what Jesus says in Luke (I think it is) where he says “I have longed to eat this Passover meal with you.”
And, running neck and neck with that verse, is the following, that I’d put somewhere:
RV 5:12b “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.”
We can get used to such things, and they may make us feel more involved. I think they’re good for that reason. It’s worse and maybe even wrong for people to use them in an empty fashion, just because everybody else is doing them.
Our former bishop wanted to add a lot of things, since he said that the congregation still had only about a minutes participation in the Mass, despite all of the innovations to change that. He was somewhat analytical at times; he even videotaped liturgies to provide “constructive” criticism to the celebrants. From the results I can’t say myself that anything was accomplished.
The elements of the Mass are so rich and meaningful, and based on the Bible, as they are. It’s sad that people don’t understand what we have in the Mass, on the one hand, and complain about how boring the Mass is – it’s not. On the other hand, it’s really hard to ‘top’ what is there.
It would be so easy to embellish the Mass with additional scripture. I would consider what Jesus says in Luke (I think it is) where he says “I have longed to eat this Passover meal with you.”
And, running neck and neck with that verse, is the following, that I’d put somewhere:
RV 5:12b “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.”
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LilyM
Guest
Those particular two have always been rare round these parts, although the ‘orans’ gesture during the Our Father is a reasonably common sight.
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puzzleannie
Guest
our pastor gave an extensive instruction on why this practice is not in the rites for laity (because evidently a previous pastor had introduced the practice in the 70s). other wiser posters will quickly give links and explanations I am sure. his message was do the red, say the black, and no where in the red does it say for laity to make any hand gestures other than when the sign of the cross is made.
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Brazzy
Guest
thanks everybody…you all provided great information
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grandfather
Guest
There are a number of things that have sort of snuck into the Mass that are not part of the rubrics, as sort of folk practices. One is everyone holding hands, reaching across aisles with the person on the end of the line holding a hand in the air. Then with the kingdom power and glory, all held hands are raised above the heads as if to gesture alleluia or whoopee. I am an old curmudgeon. I prefer being left unmolested and focused on internal prayer. I have been at Mass praying the Our Father and the woman next to me kept whacking me on the arm to hold her hand. I tried to ignore her, but she was insistent and kept whacking me, first gently then harder. There is no instruction to hold hands. She got angry with me. At the sign of peace I turned to her and she simply glared at me and made me laugh. I I admit I would rather skip the sign of peace, but it is part or the Mass. I don’t understand why at the most sacred moment at the height of worship with Jesus present before us we have to have kisses and hugs and do-si-do. I have seen people waving their arms around at other times during the Mass. Some immitate the priests motions. Some wave during the ‘also with yous’, which really is ‘and with your spirit’ if the translation was correct. It must make them feel good. It never crosses their minds that their actions are outside the norms and look very silly.
CatholicCajun
New member
You make some very good points, all to which I am in agreement. I think that some of these things have come over from the Protestants and the Charismatic Movement. Now before I am raked over the coals, I have nothing against protestants, my mom in one, or the Charismatics, I just think that is where some of these things have come from.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
The physical motions indicated by the rubrics for use during Mass are: the Sign of the Cross at the opening of Mass and at the final blessing, the triple Sign of the Cross at the Gospel (forehead, lips, and heart), the striking of the breast during the Confiteor at “through my own fault,” and a bow during the Creed at the words “by the power of the Holy Spirit” until “and became Man.” Also included are times for standing, sitting, or kneeling, some of which are universal and others are subject to the local ordinary.
Praying with upraised hands (orans posture) is a gesture which is perfectly appropriate within private prayer or communal prayer outside of Mass, but during Mass is reserved to the priest. Holding hands during the Our Father was an innovation with unclear sources (charismatic movement, New Age, Marriage Encounter, a papal Mass in Jamaica, etc.) but it is discouraged by the Church, as is gesticulating during responses such as “and also with you.”
Personally, I have always found it rather melodramatic and silly when people make a Vanna White-style, palms-up gesture during Mass responses. I feel like I should ask to buy a vowel.
Praying with upraised hands (orans posture) is a gesture which is perfectly appropriate within private prayer or communal prayer outside of Mass, but during Mass is reserved to the priest. Holding hands during the Our Father was an innovation with unclear sources (charismatic movement, New Age, Marriage Encounter, a papal Mass in Jamaica, etc.) but it is discouraged by the Church, as is gesticulating during responses such as “and also with you.”
Personally, I have always found it rather melodramatic and silly when people make a Vanna White-style, palms-up gesture during Mass responses. I feel like I should ask to buy a vowel.
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Brazzy
Guest
interesting…at my Parish, the Priest holds hands with the deacon and altar servers during the Our Father. I did not realize the church officially looks down on that.
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grandfather
Guest
Dear Fellow Curmudgeon,
Pretty soon they will be shouting Amen Brother!!!
Worship has turned goofy and everyone who does not go along with it is a wet blanket.
I dropped in on a Mass last night. It was for college kids. For Corpus Christi some young woman sang Aquinas hymn from start to finish in Latin, sloooooowly. She was amazing. You could hear a pin drop. She had me in tears. The young priest who surely has never even seen a Latin Mass gave a homily on the Eucharist that was even better than the hymn. He is the associate. The pastor is anti anything traditional. The young people will not be denied. They feel robbed and cheated.
JPII knew the Church was in the hands of the youth and he catered to them. Thank God. The light shall soon return.
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THurifer2
Guest
You mean the hand motions that developed on a whim?
The Girm mentions nothing about hand gesutures during those parts of the mass. They are fads that were invented in the pews…which is not the source of what is to be done in Mass. The postures, rubrics and any gestures are dictated from the magisterium not the laity. And raising your hands up during the “we lift them up to the Lord” is likely a mimic of the Orans posture which is reserved ONLY to the priest.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
I remember when it first started with the Our Father. First came holding hands. Next they spread across the aisle. Then they started raising them at “For the kingdom…” Then came the squeeze. Next came the shake after the squeeze. They they want to hold on until the Sign of Peace. What next?
It’s the same as “and also with you.” First it was one hand in a “back atcha!” gesture. Then two hands. Then they raised them higher for “we have lifted them up to the Lord” Now I’m noticing one person at my parish raising his hands over his head and flicking his fingers out at “it is right to give Him thanks and praise.” Occasionally someone will mimic the priest’s every gesture, and some will raise their hands at the Consecration, as if they were concelebrating.
It’s the same as “and also with you.” First it was one hand in a “back atcha!” gesture. Then two hands. Then they raised them higher for “we have lifted them up to the Lord” Now I’m noticing one person at my parish raising his hands over his head and flicking his fingers out at “it is right to give Him thanks and praise.” Occasionally someone will mimic the priest’s every gesture, and some will raise their hands at the Consecration, as if they were concelebrating.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
It seems to be a general Antiochian (in all its variants) for the people to use the Orans position for the Our Father.
Furthermore, Melkite faithful do so at the words, “We lift them up to the Lord.”
Furthermore, Melkite faithful do so at the words, “We lift them up to the Lord.”
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japhy
Guest
I’m curious why the priest’s hand gestures are only followed then, during the Our Father. (Not that I want to see people mimicking the priest, of course!)
Also, here’s an interesting article about why the orans posture the priest assumes during the Our Father might not be accurate to use in the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
Also, here’s an interesting article about why the orans posture the priest assumes during the Our Father might not be accurate to use in the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
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Greg_Salvo
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Greg_Salvo
Guest
Terrific! I really think you said it best and I wish your comments would be published in every Catholic Church bulletin for the congregations to read and understand.
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mikew262
Guest
I don’t think you are actually supposed to be doing them.
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