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BSHoop96
Guest
to your pastor!
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to your pastor!
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cothrige
Guest
I don’t know about everybody else, but it has all cooled on me. Oh, sure, I could feel the Spirit when I first got to lift my arms and stretch them out during Mass. No more I fear as this just no longer has the same effect. So, now I do jazz hands. All jazz hands, all the time! “The Lord be with you”, “And also with you” POW! *Jazz Hands!!! * Take that Spirit, baby!
Patrick
Patrick
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
Things like this vary parish to parish. Some places it is still done as a local tradition, some places do not do it. It is ok to do it even if you are the only one there.
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palmas85
Guest
You are correct in that. They are tolerated in most of the places that they occur in but the overall practice is rapidly dying out in great part. The reason, a return to orthodoxy and a growing sense, I feel anyway, that all the innovations that were put in to make the Mass more attractive and relevant have pretty much been seen for what they are, gimmicks, nothing more or less.
As the laity re-discovers the sheer joy of well celebrated orthodox Masses, these gimmicks will fade completely into obscurity much as did the Fools Masses of the Middle Ages and the other innovations that have plagued the Church throughout its history.
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BSHoop96
Guest
It makes me uncomfortable as if people are putting on some sort of a show. Also, I don’t mean this in a mean way but does it make anyone else feel as though they were in a fundamentalist Christian church?
It is not okay to do them at all.
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SORROWS
Guest
I hate to sound like a protestant but where does it specifically say in Catholic Mass doctrine, not in opinion that hand gestures in response to the Celebrant Priest should not be done.
I live in Southern California and I’ve been doing this all my life (I’m a Cradle Catholic) and I lived in a foreign country and as well this is part of the response and active participation it seems to me.
It seems like for everything there are those who say this or that shouldn’t be done. I find nothing “creepy” or “nazi” like about it.
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japhy
Guest
What is “Catholic Mass doctrine”? Are you referring to the rubrics?
Anyway, the rubrics for the Mass do not say that the faithful make hand gestures in response to the priest during this part of the Mass. I am of the opinion that the gestures should not be done (since they are not prescribed), and a priest errs if he tells the congregation to make such gestures, but I would not stop a person from making them of his own accord.
The gestures are not officially “part of the response”, nor are hand gestures necessary to be actively participating in the Mass here.
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grandfather
Guest
The rubrics define the norms of what to do, not what not to do. So for example if people decided in your parish that in response to the priest’s words of consecration the congregation should applaud and shout hurray it would not be permitted, but nowhere does it say that. I am not sure, but doubt that the rubrics say anywhere that women attending Mass can not be topless?
Assume there was a parish somewhere that people had been applauding and shouting at the consecration for thirty years. That would have no bearing on the fact that it is improper and should not take place.
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RosalieM
Guest
I’m simply not comfortable with the hand gestures so I quit doing them. 
I fold my hands in prayer and I no longer care who is or isn’t doing that also. I’m not comfortable doing the orans along with the priest. I agree translations have been overly simplified. “The Lord be WithYou” (Dominus Vobiscum)…the response “and also with you”…why? It’s “and with your spirit” (et com spirit tu tuo). I’m tired of people whispering along with what the priest says.
Why scale things down so much? Why water down translations? A lot of deep inspirational beauty is being overlooked. Catholicism is so very richly inspirational with much historic beauty. The priests are deeply moved and appreciative when we in choir sing a beautiful Latin selection. So are the parishioners. One old priest was so grateful; he misses it. I think the beauty is returning.
I fold my hands in prayer and I no longer care who is or isn’t doing that also. I’m not comfortable doing the orans along with the priest. I agree translations have been overly simplified. “The Lord be WithYou” (Dominus Vobiscum)…the response “and also with you”…why? It’s “and with your spirit” (et com spirit tu tuo). I’m tired of people whispering along with what the priest says.Why scale things down so much? Why water down translations? A lot of deep inspirational beauty is being overlooked. Catholicism is so very richly inspirational with much historic beauty. The priests are deeply moved and appreciative when we in choir sing a beautiful Latin selection. So are the parishioners. One old priest was so grateful; he misses it. I think the beauty is returning.
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BSHoop96
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Excellent!
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SORROWS
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Your comments don’t make much sense because the examples are not realistic in the sense that anyone would accept that. I will check with the clergy here in my hometown. As we Catholics often follow tradition, hand gestures are a tradition at least everywhere I’ve been.
When I speak to my Parish Priest I will try and return to this thread to try and close this topic.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
The priest in charge of liturgy in our diocese wrote an article on this, as well as the hand-holding. I’ll see if it’s online. He has a very persuasive argument against it. In any event, it is not allowed in our diocese, period. A few people do it, but neither the “This old man, he played oneback atcha” hand roll to the priest when “And also with you” is said, as well as hand-holding during the Our Father, are verboten in the Rockford diocese.
As for tradition- tradition in the Catholic Church is not the 1970s, a whopping 30 years ago. For something to be a “tradition” it has to go back a lot further.
As for tradition- tradition in the Catholic Church is not the 1970s, a whopping 30 years ago. For something to be a “tradition” it has to go back a lot further.
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BSHoop96
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Do not confused tradition with “Sacred Tradition.” Anyway, he was trying to make a point. The rubrics say what you CAN do. They can’t possibly list everything you CAN’T do.
The proper interpretation of the law. In Roman law, on which Church law is based requires that when something is not specified, it ought not be done. That said, the Church has already specified that no additional gestures are to be introduced on one’s own initiative. This is very explicit in an Instruction issued by the Holy See in 1997, which states, in part,
"Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant."
The “backatcha” gesture is an imitation of the priest, not called for by law, and is therefore explicitly reprobated by this Instruction.
Now would be a good time to stop.
That is not part of the response and neither is it active participation. Active participation as called for by the Church is first and foremost the participation we give by virtue of our baptism. It is entirely possible to actively (actuosa) participate at Mass without saying, understanding, or singing a single word (e.g. Mass in a foreign country)
Most of us simply want one thing: adhere to the rubrics, no more, no less. That is not liturgical nazism; that is simply desiring what the Church wants. The rubrics say nothing about what the laity are to do with their hands, except for the signs of the cross at various points in the Mass.
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grandfather
Guest
Who decides what is acceptable? A bunch of people think its cool to start waving their arms around at Mass and another bunch thinks it is ridiculous hand jive, totally goofy. The ones waving their arms think that is a good thing to do for some reason and don’t understand why anyone might not like it and if some people object too bad about them and too bad about the instructions in the rubrics. They say they have been doing it for thirty years so that makes it legitimate. That is completley illogical to anyone who is capable of logic. If I have been having an adulterous affair for thirty years that makes it acceptable?
You think that no one would accept it if women came topless to Mass. In Africa a bunch of topless women did a dance for the late pope JPII. They thought it was fine. The purpose of rubrics is to establish universal norms. Individual parishes or priests can not make it up as they go. It causes confusion and history shows it causes liturgical abuses.
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jenkiedad
Guest
Regarding the 1997 Holy See reference to the use of “gestures”, I found the source document at the Vatican web site:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
It would appear that this document is talking about lay persons conducting aspects of the Mass and/or taking positions where it would appear that they are officiating. I am not a Vatican expert, but this document and reference by one of the posters does not appear to apply.
A member of the laity extending hands upward at the “Our Father” would not appear to be covered by this Vatican document.
With this said, I have been curious on the origin of these various gestures. Tradition is a key element of the Catholic faith, and there are a lot of traditions from the early Church that I have read of which are no longer practiced. But does this mean that some of the gestures that are seen today in many Catholic Masses should not be used, even if they have their basis in early Church tradition?
Some of the gestures I’ve seen in Mass, and which have been pooh-poohed in this forum include:
At one of the Masses in our parish, we actually sing the Nicene Creed (at the Youth Mass) and the chorus includes a singing that “Amen we do believe” while extending the right hand. This same chorus is also used during the “Great Amen” in Mass (also with hand extended) as an affirmation of what has just been witnessed.
My personal opinion is that these gestures enhance the overall experience and spirtuality of the Mass. Isn’t what we are trying to achieve?
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
It would appear that this document is talking about lay persons conducting aspects of the Mass and/or taking positions where it would appear that they are officiating. I am not a Vatican expert, but this document and reference by one of the posters does not appear to apply.
A member of the laity extending hands upward at the “Our Father” would not appear to be covered by this Vatican document.
With this said, I have been curious on the origin of these various gestures. Tradition is a key element of the Catholic faith, and there are a lot of traditions from the early Church that I have read of which are no longer practiced. But does this mean that some of the gestures that are seen today in many Catholic Masses should not be used, even if they have their basis in early Church tradition?
Some of the gestures I’ve seen in Mass, and which have been pooh-poohed in this forum include:
- “Back at You”. The response to the “Peace Be With You” by the Priest.
- “Orant Posture or Hands Outstretched with Palms Up”. Used at the Our Father (and also during Offertory Prayer).
- “Holding Hands”. Also during the “Our Father”. I had heard on “Catholic Answers” a few weeks ago that even at services at the Vatican, hands are held.
- “Extending Right Hand Upward or Seig Heil”. Used to extend blessings to married couples, catechists being commissioned, first communion recipients. Also, used as an affirmation.
At one of the Masses in our parish, we actually sing the Nicene Creed (at the Youth Mass) and the chorus includes a singing that “Amen we do believe” while extending the right hand. This same chorus is also used during the “Great Amen” in Mass (also with hand extended) as an affirmation of what has just been witnessed.
My personal opinion is that these gestures enhance the overall experience and spirtuality of the Mass. Isn’t what we are trying to achieve?
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
They were innovations and were never actually part of the Mass.
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Rabbititus
Guest
I’ve attended church in at least four midwestern states, and in one southern state. I’ve seen maybe a grand total of five people make hand gestures. I knew one such person was a convert from a mainline protestant church and so I long assumed it was a convert thing.
I find it kind of silly looking - which is why I think it’ll eventually die out completely. I think people should be taught how to actually participate in the mass - through prayer - rather than through gimmicky gestures.
I find it kind of silly looking - which is why I think it’ll eventually die out completely. I think people should be taught how to actually participate in the mass - through prayer - rather than through gimmicky gestures.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
How come the “and also with you” and the “we lift them up to the Lord” hand motions seem to be nonexistent in mass these days??? Sometimes I feel like I am the only parishioner actually doing them.
**The Melkite faithful take the Orans posture at the word “We lift them up to the Lord” and (as well as Middle Easteners generally) at the Lord’s Prayer.
I’m not aware of this ever having been done in the Latin rites, though.**
**The Melkite faithful take the Orans posture at the word “We lift them up to the Lord” and (as well as Middle Easteners generally) at the Lord’s Prayer.
I’m not aware of this ever having been done in the Latin rites, though.**
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