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Deacon_Lance
Guest
You are correct sir.
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OhMalley
Guest
How come you didn’t start out with this?
Anyways, how do you define “little bells?” .24" diameter? .5" diameter? 1" diameter? 5"? 12"? Is that in the Liturgikon? It is strictly a matter of being hand-held in your personal opinion?
I suspect that in the end it would be up to the local ordinary. Some ordinaries would no doubt approve certain hand bells. In fact some hand bells are larger than some tower bells.
I would also suggest at least the English translation of that Liturgikon follows a period of some fairly lamentable “Latinizations.” In the case of the ringing of sanctus bells it was as much (if not more) of an issue of WHEN they were rang than their pitch. Perhaps they were trying to control this with the language provided which once again is open to the interpretation of the local ordinary?
In any event like many things in the liturgy, this is not the simple black/white, open/shut case you would like it to be.
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Hesychios
Guest
How many angels…
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Deacon_Lance
Guest
I did start with this. Please refer back to post #2 and post #15.
How do you define little bells? Your average handbell/sanctus bell is much smaller than your average tower bell.
It should be obvious that the bells excluded were the ones that were in use prior to the decree, i.e handbells, little bells, sanctus bells. I have an old Liturgy book from 1940. It prescribes the bells be rung at the Triumphal Hymn (Sanctus), the Amens after the Words of Institution, and at “We praise you, we bless you…” There are even pictures in the book showing the altar boy ringing the bells.
The language is clear and why you are seeking a loophole is beyond me. Handbells are not part of our tradition. But I encourage you to write Bishop Gerald as I am confident of his response.
Fr. Deacon Lance
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OhMalley
Guest
My apologies I missed posting #15. Posting #2 did not have the reference.
***From the Ordo Celebrationis:
“10. Liturgical vestments and linens, other than those indicated in this book for each divine service, should not be used; the use of little bells, large or small organs, so called harmoniums is excluded.”
After the Ordo Celebrationis was published Bishop Daniel responded by asking for 23 exceptions to the stated rubrics. The 23rd being:
“According to immemorial custom, the small bells are used.” **
To which the Oriental Congregation responded:
“the small bells are eliminated even from the Solemn Liturgy.”*
Do you realize that language is talking about the Latinization of ringing bells (small or otherwise) as they do in the Mass for the Divine Liturgy, a definate no-no? While their language might be a bit too vague for those without a grasp of the history surrounding this article in the document, they are not simply talking about the physical size of bells.
***From the Ordo Celebrationis:
“10. Liturgical vestments and linens, other than those indicated in this book for each divine service, should not be used; the use of little bells, large or small organs, so called harmoniums is excluded.”
After the Ordo Celebrationis was published Bishop Daniel responded by asking for 23 exceptions to the stated rubrics. The 23rd being:
“According to immemorial custom, the small bells are used.” **
To which the Oriental Congregation responded:
“the small bells are eliminated even from the Solemn Liturgy.”*
Do you realize that language is talking about the Latinization of ringing bells (small or otherwise) as they do in the Mass for the Divine Liturgy, a definate no-no? While their language might be a bit too vague for those without a grasp of the history surrounding this article in the document, they are not simply talking about the physical size of bells.
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Deacon_Lance
Guest
I do realize that. Do you realize that ringing handbells (of any size) inside the church during throughout the praying of the Anaphora (which is the only rubric that exists) would be nothing but a distraction and annoyance and inappropriate since it is now prayed aloud? When do you suggest ringing them?
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OhMalley
Guest
I do realize that the ringing of bells during the Divine Liturgies in the Ruthenian Recension of the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church in the USA is not as black and white and you would like it to be.
Further I am certain that it’s ultimately up to the local ordinary. I am absolutely certain about that.
If I was to ring the tower bells in my Latin Rite parish (where I am a bell ringer) they would be FAR louder inside the church than 1, 2 or 3 hand-held bells also rung inside the church. That’s true of many parish churches.
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Deacon_Lance
Guest
Please write Bishop Gerald and let me know what the answer is.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
If you already know the answer and refuse to take the word of an actual member of the clergy then may I ask, why did you ask this question in the first place?
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OhMalley
Guest
That’s a fair question.
I suppose I was hoping for definitive information one way or the other and it didn’t happen. It’s clearly (at least to me) still up to the local ordinary.
As far as “an actual member of the clergy”, I may be wrong but being a deacon does not guarantee one is an expert on the Divine Liturgy.
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Aramis
Guest
Nor does being a priest or bishop.
Otherwise, about 90% of the errors the Latins are experiencing wouldn’t happen.
Nor would His Grace Nicholas +Elko have sought the removal of iconostasi.
But the rubrics and theology of liturgy ARE part of all cleric’s seminary… even permanent deacons.
Besides, the definitive (Ruthenian) Answer is the Metropolitan Synod’s answer, for the Synod may overrule the individual bishops.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I do not know what is more definitive information than the Ordo Celebrationis that Father Deacon Lance is quoting from.
Also, there is a note that goes with it. Where it says, “the use of little bells, large or small organs, so-called harmoniums, is excluded.” the note to this says, “The 'little bells” thus excluded are the so-called Sanctus bells used in the Roman rite."
When faced with a question on rubrics and the liturgy and we have two answers, one from a lay person who is speaking his opinion and another from a member of the clergy who uses actual Church documents to support his opinion, I think it is prudent to listen to and believe the member of the clergy.
As for this, you seem to be reading into the document. One can not assume that this is only speaking of the Latinization you think it is, as it does not explicitly state this. It states that “small bells” are to be eliminated, period.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
OhMalley,
I have one further question to try and understand what you are looking for with this thread.
You list yourself as Catholic, would that be Latin or one of the Byzantine Churches?
I have one further question to try and understand what you are looking for with this thread.
You list yourself as Catholic, would that be Latin or one of the Byzantine Churches?
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OhMalley
Guest
Quite true but in the case of the bishop he has the authority to say what goes on an item like “small” bells.
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OhMalley
Guest
Canonically I am a Latin Rite Catholic. For the last 10 years I have been attending both my Latin Rite Parish where I have been registered for decades and a Byzantine Parish where I consider myself an adjunct (although the pastor took it upon himself to register me a few years ago.) When I say “attend” I mean the Mass and Divine Liturgy and other celebrations at each parish every week for the last decade or so.
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OhMalley
Guest
Sort of like interpreting the Bible I suppose. Millions cannot understand why their interpretation of the Bible does not match those of their neighbors.
That article in that document is specifically prohibiting the ringing of bells (any size of bells actually – although if one does not have an understanding of the situation that document is addressing they wouldn’t have any idea of that) during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy as they were/may be rung during the celebration of the Holy Sacirifice of the Mass – a definate Latinization and thus forbidden.
I was then told that ringing small bells inside of the church when the Russian Bell Ringing Typikon said to ring bells would be too disruptive to the liturgy. So we are transitioning from “the Church said not to” to our own personal judgement. That doesn’t take into consideration a few things.
First, no one said the small bells would have to be rung from the altar or even the sanctuary – they could be rung from the vestibule for instance. Better yet, a skilled campanologist could simply attenuate the volume of the bells through technique – I’m certain I could do that so it should be a cinch for others. Second, at least in my Latin Rite parish, the ringing of our great tower bells would be far louder inside the church than if we were ringing small bells inside the church.
In the end my question does not have a simplistic/cut-n-dried answer. One or more were offered but that doesn’t make them valid.
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Aramis
Guest
Technically, no he doesn’t. The His Grace Gerald could specify that we all need to install curtains (but until every parish has a real iconostas, I doubt he will). He could specify which optional ektenia to use (the Ruthenian Synod effectively has for the English… sadly, none).
But Liturgicam Authenticum specifies that bishops don’t have the right to modifiy the rubrics of the mass; by extension, neither would an eastern bishop have the authority to alter the rubrics individually. It requires the work of the synod. And in the case of the Ordo, the Pope’s approval.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
As Catholics we do not have the right or authority to interprete the Bible, same goes for Church documents.
But that does not change the fact that people will do what they want and will rationalize it to make it appear that they do have the right and authority to do so.
It is a simple cut and dried answer, just reread it. It says that the small bells are not to be used, period. It seems that you are the one reading into the text what you wish to see.
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OhMalley
Guest
Quite true.
I’m sorry but you’re wrong. It really doesn’t matter though as we are just comparing our interpretations of the document and both of us lack the authority to make any binding comments from it.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I understand what you are looking for, I think. Am I correct in thinking that you wonder about the use of the sanctus bells (little bells) in the Divine Liturgy at the time that the bigger bells that are outside of the Church would be rung?I’m sorry but you’re wrong. It really doesn’t matter though as we are just comparing our interpretations of the document and both of us lack the authority to make any binding comments from it.
If so, I would still have to say no as the question asked of Rome was “can we use the little bells”, and the answer was “No the little bells are excluded:”. Neither the question nor the answer listed an explicit use of the bells so all we can no is that the little bells are not to be used. That is unless one reads into the document.
If a clarification is necessary then it must come from Rome, until then it appears that the answer is that they are not to be used.
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