Handling Knowledge You Cannot Un-Know

[EasterJoy]

Those of you who have relatives who have left the Church might be able to share some experiences that will help me to answer this.

I have a relative who is very gifted, the kind of gifted where there is no way this person could possibly do all the things he or she could do very well. Doctor, lawyer, musician, artist–the sky is the limit. This person has opted to become an artist. This is fine…OK.

This is fine, that is, until I went on the internet thinking to perhaps see some of the art and poetry of which this person is most proud, since they’re not the kind to trumpet themselves at family functions. (It was a little odd that his/her parents did not, which should have been a clue.)

The art and poetry posted on the internet by this person exposes a psyche that I can only describe as an extremely wounded and cynical innocence. Part exposes sentiments and experiences that could not be posted on a family forum–habitual and casual drug use and alcohol over-use, flippant obscenities, models dressed in over-sexualized clothing, and relationships in which the persons this person is the most intimate with get the most contempt, if you get my meaning. There are also expressions of self-disgust. The other side, though, is extremely sentimental and childlike: nature scenes worthy of a greeting card and adoration of puppies, flowers, pastels, unicorns, and the like. I am talking about stuff a first- or second-grader would love. Very sweet, that is the only way I have to describe it. This is the kind of stuff that adults with any pretensions about being intellectuals don’t like to admit they like when they like it.

I had hoped the dark stuff was all “imaginary” and “avante garde” things that “artists do now,” but this person has also posted what amounts to an intensely personal diary in the form of Twitter feeds on the internet. It is “anonymous,” but with the pictures posted there is no question that this is my relative. I don’t know if his or her parents know or not. They’ve said their child is unhappy, that is all. The child is an adult, in college but has a job and his/her own place. This is an adult child, not a dependent any more. This is also someone who is very pleasant with the rest of the family, not acting sullen or depressed at all, but who spends about as little time with us on the occasional visits as politely possible. This is also someone who has quietly but unequivocally left the Church. (Maybe a “spiritual but not religious,” but a very hip “ex-Catholic” who was never particularly devout in terms of the more conventional habits of piety.)

How would you deal with this? How have you dealt with this? I am at a loss. It is heartbreaking. This person has a public Facebook account, too, but no thanks. Not going there. I don’t see how I can talk about this to family members who are unaware of it. It would be better for me if I had never seen it, so why would I do that to them?

I guess I’m looking for feedback on how you’ve handled anything remotely similar to this. I can’t see anything to do but to pretend I’ve never seen this stuff and to strenuously avoid any faux pas comments based on what I’ve read. (For instance, if I *ever even thought *of asking in some perfunctory way if this person was seeing anybody, I will NEVER do that now!! )

(PS There are no signs of a suicide risk or self-harm, other than expressions of a general dissatisfaction with the unpleasant realities of life, the bearable-but-unpleasant consequences of some poor decision-making, and expressions of doubt of that the unpleasantness this person feels about being a human being among human beings will improve any time soon.)

 

[1ke]

Like the church friend I used to pet sit for by going to the apartment to feed the pet, who left his Sam’s club super box of condoms in the bathroom and a mail order catalog on the coffee table for a certain fetish not fit to print here either?

I just kept my mouth shut and treated him as if I’d never seen it.

 

[PaulineMargaret]

The relative has received a huge blessing in that, as you get over the initial shock, means that he or she has someone prayerful and kind to pray for their soul and their eternal salvation.
Horrible for you, but the very intensity of your disappointment and dismay means that your commitment to prayer for the relative will be one of the greatest blessings her life will receive.
God loves the person so much as to find the right person to pray for this confused and misled person in your family.

 

[Allegra]

I don’t know what you can do other than pretend you didn’t see it. I suspect the parents might already be aware, if the avoid talking about the artwork. My sister has bipolar disorder and has a similar bipolar interest in art. She’ll have sickeningly sweet kittens on one side of the room and dark, angsty stuff on the other.

 

[1ke]

Ok, on a more serious note…

How close are you to the parents?

I think any college kid who dabbles in recreational drug use in the name of art is following in the footsteps of many an artist who has gone before. Most of whom did not end well, but did end famous.

If the parents are well grounded in the faith they can evaluate how far down the path this person has gone in philosophy, atheism, etc. depending on how well read they are, perhaps they can counter with solid Catholic philosophers.

You are going on a lot of supposition. They could just be a wanna-be for all you know and the tragi-contempt shtick is an attempt to be cool, tortured, or whatever they think an artist should be.

Sounds a lot like a college boyfriend of mine who read a lot of Ayn Rand, listened to opera, and scoffed at God because that is what intellectuals do.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ok, on a more serious note…

How close are you to the parents?

I think any college kid who dabbles in recreational drug use in the name of art is following in the footsteps of many an artist who has gone before. Most of whom did not end well, but did end famous.

If the parents are well grounded in the faith they can evaluate how far down the path this person has gone in philosophy, atheism, etc. depending on how well read they are, perhaps they can counter with solid Catholic philosophers.

You are going on a lot of supposition. They could just be a wanna-be for all you know and the tragi-contempt shtick is an attempt to be cool, tortured, or whatever they think an artist should be.

Sounds a lot like a college boyfriend of mine who read a lot of Ayn Rand, listened to opera, and scoffed at God because that is what intellectuals do.

I had hoped this was a put-on when drug paraphernalia and empty liquor bottles were the subject of the artwork, but then there are references in the diary to the drug use and to “needs” that the person is thinking about how to get met. It isn’t tortured, but matter-of-fact. The person talks about regret about doing too many drugs and alcohol the way I’d talk about helping myself to pie when I should be trying to lose weight.’

The person does not scoff at God, but scoffs at religion.

 

[Eliza10]

Hi EasterJoy. If one of the things you are asking is how to “un-see” and “not remember” certain explicit images you saw, I can tell you what I have done when I have been exposed to ugliness, goriness or immoral explicitness I do not want to remember. I ask Jesus to take the images out of my mind. And He always has. (And if anyone tries this and He doesn’t, then keep asking! Every time an image crosses your mind. Jesus will take it away.)

But for the sake of your relative, I would do this anyway.

Think of how Jesus was with Mary of Magdala when he saw her before she converted, when he gave her looks of love which led to the conversion of her heart. He would have looked at her with love and not judgement, since of course that is who He is - He is not yet judge. He would have looked at her this way even though He would have known every disgusting detail of all of her sin.

So in the same way you get to be Jesus to this relative. You have knowledge you don’t want, but you can choose to overlook it (which is easier once you have given it to Jesus and asked Him to mend it. Or choose a Saint for help, especially for him, and constantly entrust his issues of immorality and career choice and faith to that Saint). And say of course, “there but for the grace of God go I” and look at him with the love of Jesus.

Take it on as your personal prayer responsibility. With the responsibility of the grave moral situation in the hands of God, through a Saint you are counting on to handle it, asking his ground to be made ready to receive the seeds of eternal life. And you are free to love your relative, and some day, he may turn to you, or the Lord may see fit to use you as someone who helps him with words of Light.

I can see how he is like a spoiled rich kid, who has inherited everything, and squanders it. He inherited gifts and intelligence, so things came easy for him, and he squandered it. He must certainly feel shame. But we fight not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. You can be light and hope to him, with your quiet love and your prayers. And if God gives you an occasion to discuss anything, He will give you wisdom and words you need at that time.

You can be his “Spiritual Mom”. Mary will join you. And St. Monica!

 

[edwest2]

Those of you who have relatives who have left the Church might be able to share some experiences that will help me to answer this.

I have a relative who is very gifted, the kind of gifted where there is no way this person could possibly do all the things he or she could do very well. Doctor, lawyer, musician, artist–the sky is the limit. This person has opted to become an artist. This is fine…OK.

This is fine, that is, until I went on the internet thinking to perhaps see some of the art and poetry of which this person is most proud, since they’re not the kind to trumpet themselves at family functions. (It was a little odd that his/her parents did not, which should have been a clue.)

The art and poetry posted on the internet by this person exposes a psyche that I can only describe as an extremely wounded and cynical innocence. Part exposes sentiments and experiences that could not be posted on a family forum–habitual and casual drug use and alcohol over-use, flippant obscenities, models dressed in over-sexualized clothing, and relationships in which the persons this person is the most intimate with get the most contempt, if you get my meaning. There are also expressions of self-disgust. The other side, though, is extremely sentimental and childlike: nature scenes worthy of a greeting card and adoration of puppies, flowers, pastels, unicorns, and the like. I am talking about stuff a first- or second-grader would love. Very sweet, that is the only way I have to describe it. This is the kind of stuff that adults with any pretensions about being intellectuals don’t like to admit they like when they like it.

I had hoped the dark stuff was all “imaginary” and “avante garde” things that “artists do now,” but this person has also posted what amounts to an intensely personal diary in the form of Twitter feeds on the internet. It is “anonymous,” but with the pictures posted there is no question that this is my relative. I don’t know if his or her parents know or not. They’ve said their child is unhappy, that is all. The child is an adult, in college but has a job and his/her own place. This is an adult child, not a dependent any more. This is also someone who is very pleasant with the rest of the family, not acting sullen or depressed at all, but who spends about as little time with us on the occasional visits as politely possible. This is also someone who has quietly but unequivocally left the Church. (Maybe a “spiritual but not religious,” but a very hip “ex-Catholic” who was never particularly devout in terms of the more conventional habits of piety.)

How would you deal with this? How have you dealt with this? I am at a loss. It is heartbreaking. This person has a public Facebook account, too, but no thanks. Not going there. I don’t see how I can talk about this to family members who are unaware of it. It would be better for me if I had never seen it, so why would I do that to them?

I guess I’m looking for feedback on how you’ve handled anything remotely similar to this. I can’t see anything to do but to pretend I’ve never seen this stuff and to strenuously avoid any faux pas comments based on what I’ve read. (For instance, if I *ever even thought *of asking in some perfunctory way if this person was seeing anybody, I will NEVER do that now!! )

(PS There are no signs of a suicide risk or self-harm, other than expressions of a general dissatisfaction with the unpleasant realities of life, the bearable-but-unpleasant consequences of some poor decision-making, and expressions of doubt of that the unpleasantness this person feels about being a human being among human beings will improve any time soon.)

Speaking about the artistic angle, perhaps I can offer a few clues. Fine Art, and the media, has a “no limits” attitude. There are no rules. Whatever the person creates, he creates. One moment, he is serious but “seems” to have no moral compass because ‘who needs that’? "Go with the flow, right? I’ll be serious one moment and then paint flowers and puppy dogs. Too many are just drifting in their own mental wind, caused by exterior and interior forces. And being of adult age doesn’t mean you’ve got this whole “adult” thing figured out. Some adults are immature and think in undisciplined ways and/or don’t see or don’t care about the consequences of their actions until something negative happens. With no rules, self-restraint doesn’t matter and so your sensibilities are shocked. I would feel the same way.

He sounds like he may be straddling two worlds: one that is created and encouraged by the media and, perhaps, another, internal world based on fond memories.

Being very talented or gifted is a gift that should be refined but I think some find it too hard to find guidance or don’t think it’s necessary. Sure, we’re all different but that does not justify each one of us being this island. I think having good role models in life is a good thing. I think having a sense of being a part of a community of people with similar values is a good thing. But some people don’t want it, or think it’s unnecessary.

It sounds like this person has conflicts but, at that age, who doesn’t? I know a guy who’s very talented but unrefined. He needs guidance and is among the nicest, most polite people you’ll ever meet. Relationships are just not something he’s got worked out. He’s so buried in his own interests that having a girlfriend who just wants to have a little fun is awkward for him. Sometimes people with that talent level just get caught up in their own world and that’s either good enough or the outside world and even human interaction is just not that important.

God cares about each of us - ex-Catholics, lapsed Catholics, the nominally Catholic. Pray for him. Prayer does help.

Ed

 

[LongingSoul]

EasterJoy, I know you to be a wise and spiritually mature soul from these boards, and wondered if you could draw on an inner spiritual advisor to go forward. Years ago I started to train as a counsellor but concluded that I didn’t have the strength of personality to take on that role and then after doing the spiritual exercises my SD suggested I might like to discern if training along those lines might be my calling. I started that training but again concluded that my personality is not strong enough for such a role.

However, I did take away an insight from those experiences that I try to use when the situation arises… that is to take on an attitude of ‘unconditional positive regard’ towards a person where some revelation has destroyed my natural positive regard. The theory is that to practice this attitude leads to discerning listening and you seem to be the type of person who’d be good at that. Without being to forced, there are comments or questions that allow a person to trust you enough to talk or express certain worries or feelings they are guarding. I’m talking about this young persons parents here. It’s not using the skill to be a counsellor but just being a safe, listening ear is often enough for a person to break down defenses that prevent them from acting proactively themselves in addressing issues.

That was just the first thought that came to me when I read your story.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi EasterJoy. If one of the things you are asking is how to “un-see” and “not remember” certain explicit images you saw, I can tell you what I have done when I have been exposed to ugliness, goriness or immoral explicitness I do not want to remember. I ask Jesus to take the images out of my mind. And He always has. (And if anyone tries this and He doesn’t, then keep asking! Every time an image crosses your mind. Jesus will take it away.)

But for the sake of your relative, I would do this anyway.

Think of how Jesus was with Mary of Magdala when he saw her before she converted, when he gave her looks of love which led to the conversion of her heart. He would have looked at her with love and not judgement, since of course that is who He is - He is not yet judge. He would have looked at her this way even though He would have known every disgusting detail of all of her sin.

So in the same way you get to be Jesus to this relative. You have knowledge you don’t want, but you can choose to overlook it (which is easier once you have given it to Jesus and asked Him to mend it. Or choose a Saint for help, especially for him, and constantly entrust his issues of immorality and career choice and faith to that Saint). And say of course, “there but for the grace of God go I” and look at him with the love of Jesus.

Take it on as your personal prayer responsibility. With the responsibility of the grave moral situation in the hands of God, through a Saint you are counting on to handle it, asking his ground to be made ready to receive the seeds of eternal life. And you are free to love your relative, and some day, he may turn to you, or the Lord may see fit to use you as someone who helps him with words of Light.

I can see how he is like a spoiled rich kid, who has inherited everything, and squanders it. He inherited gifts and intelligence, so things came easy for him, and he squandered it. He must certainly feel shame. But we fight not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. You can be light and hope to him, with your quiet love and your prayers. And if God gives you an occasion to discuss anything, He will give you wisdom and words you need at that time.

You can be his “Spiritual Mom”. Mary will join you. And St. Monica!

Thank you. And St. Joseph, too, I think. Yes, definitely St. Joseph.

 

[EasterJoy]

Speaking about the artistic angle, perhaps I can offer a few clues. Fine Art, and the media, has a “no limits” attitude. There are no rules. Whatever the person creates, he creates. One moment, he is serious but “seems” to have no moral compass because ‘who needs that’? "Go with the flow, right? I’ll be serious one moment and then paint flowers and puppy dogs. Too many are just drifting in their own mental wind, caused by exterior and interior forces. And being of adult age doesn’t mean you’ve got this whole “adult” thing figured out. Some adults are immature and think in undisciplined ways and/or don’t see or don’t care about the consequences of their actions until something negative happens. With no rules, self-restraint doesn’t matter and so your sensibilities are shocked. I would feel the same way.

He sounds like he may be straddling two worlds: one that is created and encouraged by the media and, perhaps, another, internal world based on fond memories.

Being very talented or gifted is a gift that should be refined but I think some find it too hard to find guidance or don’t think it’s necessary. Sure, we’re all different but that does not justify each one of us being this island. I think having good role models in life is a good thing. I think having a sense of being a part of a community of people with similar values is a good thing. But some people don’t want it, or think it’s unnecessary.

It sounds like this person has conflicts but, at that age, who doesn’t? I know a guy who’s very talented but unrefined. He needs guidance and is among the nicest, most polite people you’ll ever meet. Relationships are just not something he’s got worked out. He’s so buried in his own interests that having a girlfriend who just wants to have a little fun is awkward for him. Sometimes people with that talent level just get caught up in their own world and that’s either good enough or the outside world and even human interaction is just not that important.

God cares about each of us - ex-Catholics, lapsed Catholics, the nominally Catholic. Pray for him. Prayer does help.

Ed

Thanks. Yes, this is a little like knowing you have a neighbor who rides his motorcycle without a helmet and picks up strange women at bars when he thinks he is in a place where no one knows him. It is raises the question of which “persona” he puts on for some reason and which is really him, but even more a concern that he is given to making very bad and very dangerous decisions.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, I know you to be a wise and spiritually mature soul from these boards, and wondered if you could draw on an inner spiritual advisor to go forward. Years ago I started to train as a counsellor but concluded that I didn’t have the strength of personality to take on that role and then after doing the spiritual exercises my SD suggested I might like to discern if training along those lines might be my calling. I started that training but again concluded that my personality is not strong enough for such a role.

However, I did take away an insight from those experiences that I try to use when the situation arises… that is to take on an attitude of ‘unconditional positive regard’ towards a person where some revelation has destroyed my natural positive regard. The theory is that to practice this attitude leads to discerning listening and you seem to be the type of person who’d be good at that. Without being to forced, there are comments or questions that allow a person to trust you enough to talk or express certain worries or feelings they are guarding. I’m talking about this young persons parents here. It’s not using the skill to be a counsellor but just being a safe, listening ear is often enough for a person to break down defenses that prevent them from acting proactively themselves in addressing issues.

That was just the first thought that came to me when I read your story.

The ways in which this person talks about the other people with whom he/she shares intimacies is probably the saddest and the most disturbing. The idea of hooking up with strangers is bad enough. The thought of hooking up with strangers you find boring, pathetic, clueless, or some kind of emotional adversary is even worse. These are not lovers, nor even partners, but I don’t know, mere sources of some thing the person is driven to go look for, not even knowing if he/she wants to want it.

In the light of what this faculty is intended to give humankind, seeing this alternative is like looking into the maw of Hell, looking at a torment even worse than a physical torment, but the source of the torment isn’t recognized so the chances of getting free from it seem remote. Truly awful.

 

[edwest2]

Thanks. Yes, this is a little like knowing you have a neighbor who rides his motorcycle without a helmet and picks up strange women at bars when he thinks he is in a place where no one knows him. It is raises the question of which “persona” he puts on for some reason and which is really him, but even more a concern that he is given to making very bad and very dangerous decisions.

Unfortunately, it’s an easy trap to fall into. The media shows a doctor drinking after work, picking up a random man and having sex with him. He tries to tell her his name but she doesn’t want to know. That’s fine for the fantasy world of TV but it’s a really, really bad example of a possible “choice” in real life. In real life, they might find her body and she didn’t tell anyone about the guy.

I have some young relatives that I can only pray for and offer some advice to. I can only be concerned to a point. Yes, they’re young adults and I give them the guidance I can, but I’m not their dad. In any case, pray. And, should anything obvious come up or you stumble on something else, maybe you should say something to the right person. I care but anything could happen to anyone. I wish there were guarantees.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kelfa28]

My husband and I are/were experiencing something similar.

A troubled cousin of his is a friend of mine on Facebook. She is a sweet girl but very troubled. She’s around our age and has been through a lot. Divorce, drug abuse, abusive relationships, arrest record, single-mom and she hasn’t even turned 30 yet.

She would post a lot of anonymous stuff on Facebook everyday that was a window to the troubles she was experiencing. Most of it was embedded in cynicism when it came to men and a general “woe is me” attitude. She was very vague on the details but you could tell what was going on if you looked at the big picture.

I really tried to ignore it. I didn’t feed her the ego-kibbles she desperately needed. I think I only commented on one thing she posted that misquoted Pope Francis. I made sure I was kind and unobtrusive about it.

My husband and I do pray for her and if she is in town, I still make it a point to invite her over to see our girls and give her a play date opportunity for her sons.

She is also really close to my husband’s sister. We haven’t asked how she has handled her but I know my SIL is stressed out.

This girl has since unfriended me on Facebook…or deleted her Facebook all together. I’m not sure what has happened.

We keep her in our thoughts a prayers and inquire about her when we attend family functions.

My husband’s family is a little more on the dysfunctional side. I’ve learned to just keep my mouth shut, for the most part, pray a lot and really contemplate the battles I involve myself in.

Unless it directly involves an attack against the Church or my direct family…I don’t engage and just continue on.

 

[LongingSoul]

The ways in which this person talks about the other people with whom he/she shares intimacies is probably the saddest and the most disturbing. The idea of hooking up with strangers is bad enough. The thought of hooking up with strangers you find boring, pathetic, clueless, or some kind of emotional adversary is even worse. These are not lovers, nor even partners, but I don’t know, mere sources of some thing the person is driven to go look for, not even knowing if he/she wants to want it.

In the light of what this faculty is intended to give humankind, seeing this alternative is like looking into the maw of Hell, looking at a torment even worse than a physical torment, but the source of the torment isn’t recognized so the chances of getting free from it seem remote. Truly awful.

Honestly, I know how gobsmacking it is to see inside the world of another and feel shocked and even repulsed by things that can’t be un-seen and heard. What my first thought for you had been was to regroup and try and regard the person in a different way.

The reality will definitely be that there is more to the persons experiences than you realise. When I first began to be involved in the emotional health field, one of things that shocked me was the prevalence of childhood sexual abuse in peoples live. Also the prevalence of addictions in families and selves. I have to confess, that fact changed my attitude dramatically for people. At some point whether soon into adult life or in the distant future, that fact nearly always erodes the soul and brings down the house of cards, if it is not dealt with with professional guidance. Cultivating unconditional positive regard for another is a skill but it helps to impart more merciful responses in the spirit of developing Church teaching on mercy. People think its first and foremost important to educate others on the proscriptions they are disregarding, but there’s been increasing awareness in the counselling and spiritual development field that unconditional positive regard or unconditional love can also be healing through just listening in that spirit.

 

[EasterJoy]

Honestly, I know how gobsmacking it is to see inside the world of another and feel shocked and even repulsed by things that can’t be un-seen and heard. What my first thought for you had been was to regroup and try and regard the person in a different way.

The reality will definitely be that there is more to the persons experiences than you realise. When I first began to be involved in the emotional health field, one of things that shocked me was the prevalence of childhood sexual abuse in peoples live. Also the prevalence of addictions in families and selves. I have to confess, that fact changed my attitude dramatically for people. At some point whether soon into adult life or in the distant future, that fact nearly always erodes the soul and brings down the house of cards, if it is not dealt with with professional guidance. Cultivating unconditional positive regard for another is a skill but it helps to impart more merciful responses in the spirit of developing Church teaching on mercy. People think its first and foremost important to educate others on the proscriptions they are disregarding, but there’s been increasing awareness in the counselling and spiritual development field that unconditional positive regard or unconditional love can also be healing through just listening in that spirit.

Yes. This isn’t a family we see very often, but I get the impression that there is some tense family dynamics going on. Why, I have no idea. No, the parents as much anti-Catholic as Catholic. Very angry about an all-male priesthood, traditional marriage, durable gender, that kind of thing. That makes our side of the family the dupes of The Patriarchy, I guess. This is one area, however, about which I’d say their immediate family is in agreement. They don’t agree on everything, but they seem to agree on that. One of them still occasionally attends Mass, but also openly supports ordination of women and same-sex marriage and seems to (inexplicably) think it is only a matter of time before Rome “comes around.” I don’t know, though, bc we have learned through hard experience to stay away from the topic of religion except to say we need to find time to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.

I feel for this young relative. Even the most secular person in the world could see this as a string of interpersonal interactions that you wouldn’t wish on an enemy. No one in mental health would fail to be concerned about the place of alcohol, drugs, and physical intimacies with strangers held in low regard. One would not have to be religious at all to feel heartbroken for him/her. By no means is this resulting in great art, either. I can’t explain it, but the very lack of self-awareness would seem to make it impossible for great art to come out of this. It is pain, expressed but not articulated bc it is not understood. There is not enough distance from the personal pain to find empathy for others…I can’t explain. It is just heartbreaking.

It is like having to see a train wreck and acting as if you did not recognize someone in it bc they are already condemning themselves for being in the wrong place, the wrong time, in the wrong way.

Prayer and discretion seem the greatest kindness. I don’t see that there is anything else to do right now.

 

[EasterJoy]

If anyone knows someone like this who went through a conversion or just, I don’t know, grew out of it or something, I would find that encouraging. The worse of the thought of this is that this is not one isolated person living and interacting with others like this. It is just that now I know one of them.

I guess it also scares me how little the person’s 14-year-old self gave evidence of anything like this. This person wasn’t a delinquent and wasn’t sullen or brooding as an adolescent. As a teen, this person seemed to be an ebullient, fun-loving, mature and socially-capable A-student. Has that much changed? What? Was that much hidden? It is unlikely I’ll ever know, but it is just so sad.

 

[1ke]

Yes. This isn’t a family we see very often, but I get the impression that there is some tense family dynamics going on. Why, I have no idea. No, the parents as much anti-Catholic as Catholic. Very angry about an all-male priesthood, traditional marriage, durable gender, that kind of thing. That makes our side of the family the dupes of The Patriarchy, I guess. This is one area, however, about which I’d say their immediate family is in agreement. They don’t agree on everything, but they seem to agree on that. One of them still occasionally attends Mass, but also openly supports ordination of women and same-sex marriage and seems to (inexplicably) think it is only a matter of time before Rome “comes around.” I don’t know, though, bc we have learned through hard experience to stay away from the topic of religion except to say we need to find time to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days.

I feel for this young relative. Even the most secular person in the world could see this as a string of interpersonal interactions that you wouldn’t wish on an enemy. No one in mental health would fail to be concerned about the place of alcohol, drugs, and physical intimacies with strangers held in low regard. One would not have to be religious at all to feel heartbroken for him/her. By no means is this resulting in great art, either. I can’t explain it, but the very lack of self-awareness would seem to make it impossible for great art to come out of this. It is pain, expressed but not articulated bc it is not understood. There is not enough distance from the personal pain to find empathy for others…I can’t explain. It is just heartbreaking.

It is like having to see a train wreck and acting as if you did not recognize someone in it bc they are already condemning themselves for being in the wrong place, the wrong time, in the wrong way.

Prayer and discretion seem the greatest kindness. I don’t see that there is anything else to do right now.

Well, given this, the poor young man was given no foundation, no hope, no love of God and Church.

So, I don’t think there is really anything you CAN do.

If you feel close enough to him, you can certainly tell him there is a better way-- share the kerygma. He may be thirsting for meaning, and never have gotten that taught to him by his parents with a love-hate relationship with the Church. Start with the basics.

If you don’t feel close enough to him to do that, then pray for him.

 

[silver_moon]

Thanks. Yes, this is a little like knowing you have a neighbor who rides his motorcycle without a helmet and picks up strange women at bars when he thinks he is in a place where no one knows him. It is raises the question of which “persona” he puts on for some reason and which is really him, but even more a concern that he is given to making very bad and very dangerous decisions.

I think that unfortunately, shock value sells and it has for a long time. Your description makes me think of David Bowie with the outrageousness, drug use, multiple personas, vivid costumes, and in general an impression that he was going to do whatever it took to get attention. And this started in the early 70s and went on for maybe 10 years before he started to calm down. He had a terrible cocaine habit that led to bizarre behavior in interviews, but he finally did get clean. There have also always been rumors about occult involvement, some of which is probably true and some of which may have been made up for publicity.

However he also composed a lot of great music that people still love, much of which is from a very cynical point of view. The lyrics are cynical but the melodies and rhythm are upbeat at least some of the time. He has always struck me as in it for the money and attention, although he is also bright and very talented. But what shocked people back then (saying he was bisexual) is not as shocking today. And he’s one of many artists who are like this; more successful than most but still it’s the same attitude.

I don’t know how to answer your question but I know artists push the boundaries and that seems to lead to consistently greater demands for shock value.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think that unfortunately, shock value sells and it has for a long time. Your description makes me think of David Bowie with the outrageousness, drug use, multiple personas, vivid costumes, and in general an impression that he was going to do whatever it took to get attention. And this started in the early 70s and went on for maybe 10 years before he started to calm down. He had a terrible cocaine habit that led to bizarre behavior in interviews, but he finally did get clean. There have also always been rumors about occult involvement, some of which is probably true and some of which may have been made up for publicity.

However he also composed a lot of great music that people still love, much of which is from a very cynical point of view. The lyrics are cynical but the melodies and rhythm are upbeat at least some of the time. He has always struck me as in it for the money and attention, although he is also bright and very talented. But what shocked people back then (saying he was bisexual) is not as shocking today. And he’s one of many artists who are like this; more successful than most but still it’s the same attitude.

I don’t know how to answer your question but I know artists push the boundaries and that seems to lead to consistently greater demands for shock value.

I cannot help but get the impression that there are a lot of people out there in the teen-to-early 30s age group who suffer from an enormous amount of confusion in the area of sexuality and relationships. They are like ships outfitted with big sails and no rudders. They start out believing they want to go wherever the wind of impulse takes them, and they get cynical about sailing when they find themselves in places they don’t know how they got to and don’t have a way to leave and when they get into collisions with other ships that none of the captains sees a way to prevent.

That is where this relative seems to be, alas. And you want to reach in and say–the rudder! The rudder! If you learn to use it, you can tack against the wind!! You can steer clear of the rocks! It really does serve a purpose!!