Hans Küng’s Priestly Faculties

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Tis_Bearself

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First, I apologize for not putting an umlaut over the u in Kung, but I’m on a mobile that makes that hard to do.

Second, I understand Kung is an ordained priest and theologian but due to a disagreement with the Vatican over his teachings, he was forbidden to teach as a Catholic theologian. However, he has neither been excommunicated nor laicized, despite him going farther and farther off the rails with his teachings over the years.

How does this guy still have priestly faculties?
Does he still say Mass and read the breviary prayers?
 
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I’ve wondered this myself sometimes. And quite frankly, I’m not sure. Perhaps with how well-known Kung is, the Church didn’t want to cause a firestorm by excommunicating him or revoking his faculties. That’s just a guess. But at this point, he’s so old that the Vatican is probably just waiting it out. Is he still writing books and giving speeches?

Does he say Mass or pray the Office? I don’t know, but it’s an interesting question. By the way he presents himself, he comes off as more of a professor than a priest, but I can’t say whether he maintains his prayer life or not.
 
I looked him up because I heard a program on the radio discussing his differences with Pope Benedict over the true meaning of Vatican II.
Apparently he is in his 90s, suffering from Parkinsons and saying that he’s considering assisted suicide.
 
I read that he rejects the dogma of papal infallibility. IF that is true then he has committed heresy and is automatically excommunicated.
 
You’d think the Church would have said that, though, since they issued a public statement about him being stripped of the right to teach Catholic theology.

The omission of such a statement by the Church makes it impossible for us to presume that he’s been excommunicated, IMHO.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I looked him up because I heard a program on the radio discussing his differences with Pope Benedict over the true meaning of Vatican II.
Apparently he is in his 90s, suffering from Parkinsons and saying that he’s considering assisted suicide.
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Yeah, I’ve heard that before.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
You’d think the Church would have said that, though, since they issued a public statement about him being stripped of the right to teach Catholic theology.

The omission of such a statement by the Church makes it impossible for us to presume that he’s been excommunicated, IMHO.
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I don’t know either what he is actually guilty of. I was basically objectively saying that anyone who rejects an infallible teaching commits heresy and that carries the penalty of automatic excommunication which does not require a public declaration by the Church.
However, my googling has left me confused as to what he has or has not done.

Only two things require formal proceedings to declare an excommunication:

Canon 1378: The pretended celebration of the Eucharist or of sacramental Confession.

Canon 1388: Violation of the seal of Confession by an interpreter
 
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While losing a teaching position is certainly no joke, it’s unfortunate that his superiors did not see fit to prescribe him from spreading dissent. Obviously they saw value in his ecumenical efforts, and none in further disciplining. What strikes me is that no thought is given towards the instruction to the Churcgh at large by disciplinary actions on wayward clergy. Limp-twisted efforts only embolden opponents of Church doctrine and confuse the laity.
 
Kung is a high profile public figure who is often in the Catholic news. I’m not super-familiar with him and thought someone might have sourced information. It is not gossip to ask about the status of a major public figure and theologian (there is a similar thread going on Sister Joan Chittester right now, there have been MANY such threads on Fr James Martin), nor was the thread intended as any sort of pearl-clutching beating up on him. The info in the thread is also reasonably reliably sourced for the most part.

If he were not a worldwide major public figure frequently discussed on Catholic media and everywhere else, I would understand the gossip point better, but if we are not permitted to rationally discuss the posture of such well known people, then about 25 Trump threads should go also.

As the thread has been flagged, I will leave it to the moderators to decide what to do with it, but I object to the censorship of a reasonable topic. I wondered for example if someone was aware of the man saying any public Masses or making a statement on this. There are various sources including a Wiki article on him stating that his priestly faculties were not removed.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
It is not gossip to ask about the status of a major public figure and theologian
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It would not be gossiping to ask “does he have his priestly faculties to celebrate the sacraments?”

That isn’t what you asked. You asked:
How does this guy still have priestly faculties?
 
Yes, I wanted to know about the process by which someone would be in serious disagreement, publicly removed as a Catholic theologian, but left with priestly faculties if indeed it was the case that he still had them.

Thistle actually provided helpful responses. I also didn’t know if there was more to this whole story, such as Kung wasn’t planning to ever act as a priest again so there was no point in bothering to laicize him.

I am not concerned with whether he has the faculties or not. I’m not going to start complaining about liturgical abuse. I rarely complain about any such thing on this forum. It just seems like an odd situation and I wondered if someone more familiar with the whole story could shed light to give me a better understanding. It seems like the overall answer is “we don’t know for sure” so fine, I’ll leave it at that and pray for him.

I know we have many threads where people rant about how a cleric or religious is allowed to do this or that horrible thing, however it might be best to ask for a clarification if the poster, as in my case, is not on here regularly complaining about modernism or abuses.
 
Why ask here? Contact the Vatican. Pope John Paul II took away his authority to teach. It takes a lot or a few specific things to get the Church to act. The preferred method is to start a discussion. If that doesn’t work, it goes on to the next step.
 
Reminds me of Nick Lowe’s album “Time Wounds All Heels”

Since the unnamed dissidents in the New Testament letters, there has been a steady stream of those who simply lack obedience, who are powered more by the nuclear energy of ego. Those whose births were dificult because their heels were already dug in.

And to think that many question the doctrine of original sin…

If anyone is still reading this post, an excellent book is Dissent From The Creed by Fr. Richard Hogan.

A really freaky pattern that I noted in reading the book is that the Christian heresies approximately follow the teachings of the Creed - in chronological order. It’s like the devil is reciting the Creed, stops at each point and incites dissent.
 
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After searching through a few sources that I normally read, the only thing I can find is that he is forbidden from publicly teaching, but he is not defrocked or excommunicated. Here is the Vatican declaration:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._cfaith_doc_19791215_christi-ecclesia_en.html

He has continued to say many heretical things since then and I can find no record of further punishment. How has he been able to get away with saying so many insane things since then (since 1979!) and not be excommunicated or defrocked? You’d have to ask the Vatican. Obviously if he was not punished by this point he never will be. Clergy are almost never punished for dissident teachings these days and it’s probably only going to become a rarer phenomenon as time goes on.
 
There is a procedure for dealing with dissidents. Polite meetings are the beginning. Should they continue, a warning or two. Each case is different and sometimes the secular media enjoys reporting such things. Everything will stay the same as far the approach.
 
If it’s 1ke who flagged it, she’s not Kung’s minions. She thought I was making a gossip/ outrage post about a prominent priest. I probably should have worded it better. Also, this will be the last time I bring the man up on here. I have been thinking about him a lot today because I read an interview with him and it made me feel sad.
 
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