Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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Well, there it is. With such knowledge and power of persuasion we can call this thread “closed.”:rolleyes:
I suspect that’s the strategy of some NO adherents. Getting the debate closed helps keep the issue under the carpet, in the closet as the TLM was for nearly forty years. The secret is out now Tim and Catholics around the world are discovering what was hidden from them. Some of these people aren’t happy about the suppression of the liturgy that served the Church for centuries. Most wonder why.
 
Infantile?

Here come the insults. Must be getting close to a nerve again.

I’ve never said the OF and EF weren’t of the same rite. One is more reverent than the other as the lavabo example proves.
Infantile? Yes sir, infantile. To suggest that your lavabo example “proves” anything is ample evidence that you regard your own opinion above anything else. It harkens to the sentiment expressed here that EF devotees harbor more than just a single degree of pride.

As for the “insults,” really, you do have some nerve.
 
I suspect that’s the strategy of some NO adherents. Getting the debate closed helps keep the issue under the carpet, in the closet as the TLM was for nearly forty years. The secret is out now Tim and Catholics around the world are discovering what was hidden from them. Some of these people aren’t happy about the suppression of the liturgy that served the Church for centuries. Most wonder why.
Yeah…bingo:rolleyes:
 
Possible, but that still would not account for my experience.
I have visited and attended the Novus Ordo Mass in literally hundreds of different churches, and have found that abuse happens with regularity, but is also the exception to the rule.
The vast majority are faithful.

That seems like a contradiction. Could you please clarify?

Also, the NO is open to abuse. It is no wonder “it happens with regularity.” All the indults, options, and general “spirit of VII” lead to a man-centered, not God-centered liturgy.

There can be no denying that the NO is deficient to the TLM. The NO removed many of the prayers and Catholicness of the Mass. It is a watered down version of the Mass. Why has the number of genuflections been drastically reduced? Why does the congregation no longer genuflect during the Creed or kneel to receive Our Lord? Why does the priest no longer keep his hands together after the Consecration. And then there is the issue of the actual prayers…
 
Says who? I’m happy with my diocese, but have moved much and travel frequently, and certainly have attended and do attend many many Masses outside of my diocese (even outside my home city and state).

And you may have been to several different parishes, but if they’re all within the same diocese it’s still a skewed sample, as these things tend to cluster.

So assuming you’re not a frequent mover and traveller like I am, my experience is broader than yours - and if you are, it’s at least as valid as yours.

It’s not like I was born into my parish, I also chose it after looking at several, most of which are reverent. And I’m not exclusive by any means, one of the benefits of living in a major city. But simply find the music and preaching at some more congenial to my tastes than others.

The difference between us is that I recognise these tastes for what they are - tastes. Not rubrics, not indicia of holiness or reverence. I don’t pretend they are written in stone or that everyone needs to adhere to my standards in such things. In fact I thank God they don’t - our worship, while meant to be reasonably uniform, has always allowed for variety, hence the different Eastern Rites which thanks be have not been suppressed, hence the different varieties of Latin Mass - some with singing and responses by laity, others without - and so on.
No need to get aggressive. If you reread what I wrote, you’ll notice I made sure to state it as a possible hypothesis.

And that is an erroneous assumption. I have been to multiple churches in multiple dioceses in multiple states.

And as for tastes, if I am to make an assumption, I say the tastes of the average NOer would vary greatly from that of a traditional Catholic. You, or others, might be happy with a vernanuclar Mass, altar girls, versus populem celebrations, EMHC, banal folky music, etc. After all, the rubrics allow it.

I would hazard that many of the Catholics you would find at a TLM take a different approach. That they aren’t satisfied with the bare minimum, Pharisaical, minimalistic approach. That the Mass should not be subject to the whims of subjective tastes. That truth is objective. That is why both sides have such differing views on the state of the NO.
 
The secret is out now Tim and Catholics around the world are discovering what was hidden from them. Some of these people aren’t happy about the suppression of the liturgy that served the Church for centuries. Most wonder why.
I do not know what secret you speak of, but if it is the Tridentine Mass, there are not that many people who attend it. We are talking about a minority of Catholics. No doubt there are some who are not happy with the liturgy of the Church as it is now, as there are unhappy people in any organizations. I am happy to have the Blessed Sacrament available to me and a Church in which I can trust.
 
I do not know what secret you speak of, but if it is the Tridentine Mass, there are not that many people who attend it. We are talking about a minority of Catholics. No doubt there are some who are not happy with the liturgy of the Church as it is now, as there are unhappy people in any organizations. I am happy to have the Blessed Sacrament available to me and a Church in which I can trust.
And? The TLM has been suppressed and attacked for 40 years.

Also, a diminishing amount of Catholics believe in the Real Presence, attend Mass, go to Confession, etc. Does that make it any less right or true?
 
And? The TLM has been suppressed and attacked for 40 years.

Also, a diminishing amount of Catholics believe in the Real Presence, attend Mass, go to Confession, etc. Does that make it any less right or true?
No, it does not make it less true. I believe that is a given among us here.
 
no this just marked a new beginning in the Church. A good change in some ways and a bad change in some ways. We should always give reverence to the TLM as well as accept the NO. Likewise if in the future another form of mass would come about that we should give reverence to the TLM and NO and accept the form of mass.
So why did so many Catholics stop coming to mass?
 
I do not know what secret you speak of, but if it is the Tridentine Mass, there are not that many people who attend it. We are talking about a minority of Catholics. No doubt there are some who are not happy with the liturgy of the Church as it is now, as there are unhappy people in any organizations. I am happy to have the Blessed Sacrament available to me and a Church in which I can trust.
There was no demand among the laity that the Tridentine mass be changed. As for mass in the vernacular, the translated version of the “old” mass had been in use for ten years. I was an lector at a church that used it.
 
I do not know what secret you speak of, but if it is the Tridentine Mass, there are not that many people who attend it. We are talking about a minority of Catholics. No doubt there are some who are not happy with the liturgy of the Church as it is now, as there are unhappy people in any organizations. I am happy to have the Blessed Sacrament available to me and a Church in which I can trust.
It will take generations to fix the damage that’s been done. The elements that brought the NO and ‘spirit of V2’ are still entrenched in the heirarchy of the clergy and laity. It’s easier to dumb down then smarten up. Many Catholics don’t know what being Catholic really means as others have shown (i.e. belief in the Real Presence, supporting pro-abortion politicians, etc). In many places globally we are not much more than glorified Protestants.

Speaking of Protestants, it’s interesting to note how one of the goals of the NO was to reach out to our fallen brethern, yet the first significant group to consider a return to the Church are the Traditional Anglicans.

Clearly the NO isn’t going anywhere soon. People aren’t demanding the TLM yet because most don’t know about it ,and if they do know about it how many understand it? The Mass used to be taught in our schools and took years to fully comprehend. It doesn’t exactly mesh well with today’s instant gratification/diminished attention span/hyper-choice/disposable society, but a return to core values is exactly what our world needs today.
 
I find it hard to believe you have seen liturgical abuses but not: Greeters, people chatting in the pews prior to Mass, the Orans Posture rarely, the Sign of Peace given only to those nearest them and in a sober manner, and excessive use of EMHCs.
I have not said I have not seen it.
I have said that this is not typical.
Perhaps you have seen many things but not comprehended. Heard many things but not listened. I find it hard to understand how someone can make over two thousand posts on this website and believe Greeters don’t exist or that people chat in the pews.
Well, if you read my posts you will find that what you believe I have said and what I have actually said are two different things.
See above.
 
Is this a joke. The new mass is a disaster. Yes English would be cool but all the other inovations have been a car wreck.
Here is a family determined to bring back the Sacred in the Church.

raymonddesouza.com/

you can check out the family Souza and their singing. it s beautiful.

Raymond de Souza is a brazilian apologist. he tells like it is and he is not afraid. yesterday, if you watch journey home, he was there. he talked about how the brazilian pagan culture has been embraced by Catholics and the bishops are complete silent about it. the morals are a far memory. he complained that the Church stopped teaching Faiht and morals long ago.

our Shepperds have not been Faithful to our Lord therefore the people aren’t either.

the pagan culture started before VII but it spreaded after the Councill. he laments the beautiful Churches in brazil being destroyed and with it went our sense of God and His Teachings.

i would say called back the Council and start over again.
 
I have not said I have not seen it.
I have said that this is not typical.

Well, if you read my posts you will find that what you believe I have said and what I have actually said are two different things.
See above.

From page 8, post 109:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockham
  • Greeters. 'Nuff said
vz71: Where? I’ve not seen them in any Catholic church I have ever attended.

Who’s the deceiver now?
 
I’m convinced that most of those on the NO side of this discussion actually like what goes on at NO services:
You would be wrong. There are many that scream loud and long whenever some priest violates what should be the rule.
They like the casual dress of those in attendance—sports apparel, t-shirts, etc.
Well actually, the various parishes I have attended seem to have a fairly high dress code, but it is nice that I can attend Mass and not be judged based upon my appearence.
I remember well stories told me from my parents of being turned away from Mass because the only clothes they had to their name were not good enough.
I am greatful that no longer occurrs.
They like all of the charismatic hand waving, the smiling, the laughing, even the chatting going on in the pews during the service.
No charismatic hand waving that I have seen in any Catholic church thus far.
But I have seen smiling. I usually smile right back, after all there is no law against it.
Open laughter happens. Usually when the priest makes some kind of joke during the sermon. Rarely have I seen laughter outside of this.
And, most of all, they like the FACT that they are never told by the presider (or anyone else in the whole NO outfit, for that matter) that they must assiduously avoid committing mortal sin because, if they die in the state of mortal sin, they will go to hell.
Based upon the writings I have seen in this forum, I would have to disagree.
There are a great number of people that wish to hear fire and brimstone preaching from the pulpit.
Is it routine to hear from an NO pulpit preaching against homosexuality, abortion (although that does get a little lip service, thank God), sex outside of marriage, divorcing your mate and then obtaining an annulment so that you can marry that certain exciting someone who has come into your life and still “legitimately” receive sacraments, gluttony, pride, sloth, etc.—in short, preaching against MORTAL SINS?
Sadly there are too few sermons on sin.
But that has little to do with the form of the Mass and everything to do with the faith of the people in the Mass.
That aside, what you name may or may not be Mortal sins.
The Church teaches us that there are three basic requirments for a sin to be a mortal sin. Without any one of those three, and it is not a mortal sin.
And is it also routinely heard from NO pulpits that one must make a rigorous examination of conscience and then go to confession if one is to worthily receive the Body and Blood of Our Blessed Lord, because to do otherwise is to commit mortal sin?
And again, you have fallen into a trap of believing a given sin to be mortal which very well may not be. There are conditions to a Mortal sin that must be met before it can be considered mortal.
Is it routine to hear from an NO pulpit all (or any) of these de fide teachings of Holy Mother Church? Is there a single NO parish in the U.S. where such preaching is heard on a routine basis? How about even on a semi-regular basis? How about ever? Let me know where it is—I’d like to see that.
All of the teachings…no. Sorry but there are simply too many to be covered in any given sermon from any church at all. You should know this.
But then it would be apparent that what is and is not a mortal sin is mistaken.
How is it that someone that has attended the Novus Ordo all of their life has a better understanding of Mortal Sin then one that attends the TLM?

Quick answer here. The preservation of the faith is not contained within a specific form of Mass, but in the church itself.
😉
 
I’ve heard it said by some far more intelligent and far wiser than I that it was the Church’s apparent (to the world) embracing of modernism a la Vatican II that opened the floodgates of immorality and anti-theism which so rapidly found a vehicle for expression in the 1960’s revolution—a sort of as-the-Church-goes-so-goes-the-world scenario.
Interesting logic.

But there is a large hole called the Protestant Reformation that speaks loudly against it.

The seeds that brought forth that breakup were planted long before Vatican II.

Given the relative age of the church, it would be difficult to gauge the full effect of Vatican II at this time. It will need several more decades to fully sink in.
 
Hmm…perhaps. I want to research Vatican II in order to get an understanding of what exactly transpired and how we ended up in the mess we are in now. Someone posted here once that the years after a Council are chaotic and that certainly matches my understanding of the years after a revolution. As Pope Benedict XVI points out, the “spirit of V2” was a misinterpretation. Maybe we’d be in worse shape without the NO. It could be that the Church had to roll with the waves in order to keep from capsizing during the storm.
I have to agree here. But I do not know if we really would be in worse shape.
But it does seem that the seeds of dissent that have been behind a great many abuses were in place long before the 1950’s.

My own opinion is that Vatican II was a good thing, but is also easy to abuse.
It is very early, and there is still confusion as to what is and is not actually in the documents of Vatican II. There are a great many predators out there feeding on the confusion. Frequently they cover their abuses as something ‘in the spirit of Vatican II’
Which is usually a dead giveaway that there is no backing for what they want.
Always be on the lookout for ‘the spirit of vatican II’
Vatican II has documents, not vague spirits. If something cannot be backed with solid documentation, reject it.
 
That seems like a contradiction. Could you please clarify?
Absolutely.

It would be wrong and a deception for me to claim that abuses do not exist.
In my travels I see abuse happen with alarming regularity.

HOWEVER, the abuse highlights itself. Kind of like looking at a typed page with a single sentence in the middle highlighted. You remember the highlight easier then the rest. It would be very easy to think the abuse is more widespread then it is simply because it is easier to remember.

But then I look back, and realize that while I found abuse happen with some regularity over a period of time, I also attended Mass far more often.

There is more adherence to the rule then there is abuse.
But when someone violates the rules, that is usually all everyone sees.
 

From page 8, post 109:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockham
  • Greeters. 'Nuff said
vz71: Where? I’ve not seen them in any Catholic church I have ever attended.

I’ll take those words with a side order of fries and some ketchup.
And apologize for mis-speaking.
But I still stick with my statement that what you outlined as ‘typical’ is not.
It is fortunate that you eventually discovered your own error and backed down and admitted that what you had written was not the case, but an exageration.
Who’s the deceiver now?
It was not my intent to deceive anyone.
But if you wish to stand with your finger pointed at me for the remainder of the thread, you are free to do so.
 
Absolutely.

It would be wrong and a deception for me to claim that abuses do not exist.
In my travels I see abuse happen with alarming regularity.

HOWEVER, the abuse highlights itself. Kind of like looking at a typed page with a single sentence in the middle highlighted. You remember the highlight easier then the rest. It would be very easy to think the abuse is more widespread then it is simply because it is easier to remember.

But then I look back, and realize that while I found abuse happen with some regularity over a period of time, I also attended Mass far more often.

There is more adherence to the rule then there is abuse.
But when someone violates the rules, that is usually all everyone sees.
Thank you for the clarification, nice analogy.
 
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