Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

[ProVobis]

people who want to to hang on to their perceived control in the Mass, as in reading, handing out the hosts, and performing musical numbers, etc;.

That’s the priesthood of the laity issue. And then we wonder why very few are interested in the priesthood.

 

[Ockham]

Not to be too grammatically picky, but Lily never said or even insinuated that the TLM is being imposed on anyone. She just said that a previous method of changing things (that most traditionists think was too extreme) in no way justifies repeating the same method. Anyone who suggests that such a method of returning the TLM would be great is certainly entitled to that opinion, but they would have no moral ground then for criticizing the way things changed 40 years ago. That would be hypocricy; a violation of the Golden Rule.

“Uh huh. So the fact that the NO was brought in the way it was 40 years ago makes it OK to do the same now but in reverse - ie impose TLMs willy nilly on people who don’t want one - or don’t even know what a TLM is?” LilyM

Sorry Newt, but that is exactly what Lily is insinuating. We all know the TLM is not being “imposed” the way the NO was forty years ago, so her insinuation is argumentative at best as is your assertion that I’m being hypocritical.

It’s interesting how inflamed certain NO devotees get when a positive TLM story is published. Me doth thinks the Progessives protest too much. If your confidence in the NO surviving is so strong why can’t you all embrace the TLM as a complimentative liturgy instead of attacking it?

 

[Ockham]

It is still my humble opinion that people who are so strongly against the TLM are people who want to to hang on to their perceived control in the Mass, as in reading, handing out the hosts, and performing musical numbers, etc;. Just MY two cents! Only a hunch on my part.

+1

 

[pnewton]

Sorry Newt, but that is exactly what Lily is insinuating. We all know the TLM is not being “imposed” the way the NO was forty years ago, so her insinuation is argumentative at best as is your assertion that I’m being hypocritical.

Exactly. We all know that things are not being done like they were 40 years ago. Often attending the TLM is difficult. It is not being forced on anyone.

My only sticky point is when it is suggested that half of all Masses should be TLM or that every parish should offer the TLM even in the absence of any interest. I could understand a complete return to the TLM 100% easier than either of these options.

 

[ibkc]

My only sticky point is when it is suggested that half of all Masses should be TLM or that every parish should offer the TLM even in the absence of any interest.

Our Holy Father has expressed a desire that the Extraordinary Form be available in every parish. Why is it a crazy idea?

 

[pnewton]

Our Holy Father has expressed a desire that the Extraordinary Form be available in every parish. Why is it a crazy idea?

I did not say it was crazy, but this idea of the Holy Father asking for it in every parish has almost taken on urban legend. What we really have is reports of others saying Cardinal Hoyos saying that the Holy Father says that he would like to see it every Parish, with the remark being limited to England. What we know the Holy Father wants, he actually wrote down:

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16SummorumPontificum.htm

This is what we know. No rumors. No context. No misunderstandings.

Also realize that a parish can celebrate the TLM, yet not celebrate it weekly, or even as a Sunday Mass. There are ways of granting exposure without a priest having to celebrate the TLM and have no one show. The options are myriad. The needs of individual parishes are equally diverse.

 

[Hotchkiss]

I would say that the Novus Ordo is very convenient, the short mass, the informal clothing’s, and no theology sermons (sometimes) of the priest. In my view, this is very appropriate for very busy people who needs to go and fullfil to their sunday obligation and do other task after.

However, i would like to see, the TLM in the vernacular with simple songs, not the long musics that take minutes to complete.

There is no shorter Mass than a low EF Mass. 20-25 minutes locally.

 

[Hotchkiss]

In other words given your druthers you’d still prefer a TLM. In other words the NO is still intrinsically inferior even when reverently celebrated, being inherently more ‘focused on the people’. In other words you’d still look at me like I was from another planet if I expressed a preference for the NO - in fact your attitude is very much just that.

Seems to me when a man is standing up in front of everyone else at the altar doing and saying stuff, the focus is always going to be very much on him,** whether he faces you or not.** One’s attention will be naturally drawn to his movements and words, like I said whether he faces you and speaks to you or not. I find this to be the case with the TLM too - we’re visual creatures, and the visual we get by far the most of at Mass is of the priest, whether it’s his back or his front.

As if paying a bit of attention to people automatically excludes the possibility of focus on God anyway, when the contrary is true - Jesus said where we gather in His name He is present, so there’s no either/or in the case.

Thank you for a voice of reason!

I will add that priests are LIVING ICONS of Jesus Christ. I know some love the idea of an altar cross and candles ON (rather than next to) the altar, but I personally like seeing the LIVING ICON of Jesus Christ standing there in the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[ncjohn]

It’s interesting how inflamed certain NO devotees get when a positive TLM story is published. Me doth thinks the Progessives protest too much.

Ummm…“positive TLM story”…??? I don’t think that yet another article lampooning the Ordinary Form of the Mass qualifies as a “positive TLM story”. If someone was to post a similar article attacking the TLM me doth think the traditionalists would be screaming bloody murder.

If your confidence in the NO surviving is so strong why can’t you all embrace the TLM as a complimentative liturgy instead of attacking it?

And there’s the rub. Most of us have been doing exactly that. While we may be protesting the attacks on the OF, at least the majority of us have been publicly thankful for the TLM being available for those who desire it. Suggesting that a sense of balance needs to be maintained however due to the limited interest expressed so far is not in any way attacking the TLM but using common sense in the allocation of resources while making it available on a reasonable basis for those who desire it. It isn’t the OF proponents wanting the “other side” eradicated; the overwhelming majority of us would love a “live and let live” complementarity. That needs to accompanied by traditionalists discontinuing the superiority complex though and ceasing the attacks on the OF. It takes two to tango.

Peace,

 

[Brooklyn]

I don’t know if anyone saw this, but there was a great editorial in, of all places, The New York Times this past Sunday on the Latin Mass. Had some very interesting facts in it.

nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=latin%20mass&st=Search

Did you know that Protestants had a hand in developing the NO? And that it was done to please the Protestants:

WALKING into church 40 years ago on this first Sunday of Advent, many Roman Catholics might have wondered where they were. The priest not only spoke English rather than Latin, but he faced the congregation instead of the tabernacle; laymen took on duties previously reserved for priests; folk music filled the air. The great changes of Vatican II had hit home.

All this was a radical break from the traditional Latin Mass, codified in the 16th century at the Council of Trent. For centuries, that Mass served as a structured sacrifice with directives, called “rubrics,” that were not optional. This is how it is done, said the book. As recently as 1947, Pope Pius XII had issued an encyclical on liturgy that scoffed at modernization; he said that the idea of changes to the traditional Latin Mass “pained” him “grievously.”

Paradoxically, however, it was Pius himself who was largely responsible for the momentous changes of 1969. It was he who appointed the chief architect of the new Mass, Annibale Bugnini, to the Vatican’s liturgical commission in 1948.

Bugnini was born in 1912 and ordained a Vincentian priest in 1936. Though Bugnini had barely a decade of parish work, Pius XII made him secretary to the Commission for Liturgical Reform. In the 1950s, Bugnini led a major revision of the liturgies of Holy Week. As a result, on Good Friday of 1955, congregations for the first time joined the priest in reciting the Pater Noster, and the priest faced the congregation for some of the liturgy.

The next pope, John XXIII, named Bugnini secretary to the Preparatory Commission for the Liturgy of Vatican II, in which position he worked with Catholic clergymen and, surprisingly, some Protestant ministers on liturgical reforms. In 1962 he wrote what would eventually become the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, the document that gave the form of the new Mass.

Many of Bugnini’s reforms were aimed at appeasing non-Catholics, and changes emulating Protestant services were made, including placing altars to face the people instead of a sacrifice toward the liturgical east. As he put it, “We must strip from our … Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” (Paradoxically, the Anglicans who will join the Catholic Church as a result of the current pope’s outreach will use a liturgy that often features the priest facing in the same direction as the congregation.)

How was Bugnini able to make such sweeping changes? In part because none of the popes he served were liturgists. Bugnini changed so many things that John’s successor, Paul VI, sometimes did not know the latest directives. The pope once questioned the vestments set out for him by his staff, saying they were the wrong color, only to be told he had eliminated the week-long celebration of Pentecost and could not wear the corresponding red garments for Mass. The pope’s master of ceremonies then witnessed Paul VI break down in tears.

The article goes on to state that Bugnini was later accused of actually being a Freemason, and although he was never officially cited for this, he was sent to Iran and died there pretty much in obscurity.

As far as the altar facing the people, according to this article, this is what our present Pope has to say:

At the beginning of this decade, Benedict (then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) wrote: “The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself.” He was right: 40 years of the new Mass have brought chaos and banality into the most visible and outward sign of the church. Benedict XVI wants a return to order and meaning. So, it seems, does the next generation of Catholics.

And to answer those who wonder why the TLM cannot be offered in all churches, a big part of the reason is that most priests don’t know how to say it. It is not taught in the seminaries anymore, and most of the older priests have forgotten it and don’t know their Latin anymore.

I go to the NO 5 or 6 times a week, but once a week, on Sunday, I go to a TLM, and I do find it much more reverential and inspiring than the NO.

Mary

 

[marci]

And to answer those who wonder why the TLM cannot be offered in all churches, a big part of the reason is that most priests don’t know how to say it. It is not taught in the seminaries anymore, and most of the older priests have forgotten it and don’t know their Latin anymore.

The following quote from the article just breaks my heart.

The pope once questioned the vestments set out for him by his staff, saying they were the wrong color, only to be told he had eliminated the week-long celebration of Pentecost and could not wear the corresponding red garments for Mass. The pope’s master of ceremonies then witnessed Paul VI break down in tears.

I thank God for Pope Benedict. Without him, the LM might have been lost.

 

[aicirt]

I don’t know if anyone saw this, but there was a great editorial in, of all places, The New York Times this past Sunday on the Latin Mass. Had some very interesting facts in it.

nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29wolfe.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=latin%20mass&st=Search

Did you know that Protestants had a hand in developing the NO? And that it was done to please the Protestants:

The article goes on to state that Bugnini was later accused of actually being a Freemason, and although he was never officially cited for this, he was sent to Iran and died there pretty much in obscurity.

As far as the altar facing the people, according to this article, this is what our present Pope has to say:

And to answer those who wonder why the TLM cannot be offered in all churches, a big part of the reason is that most priests don’t know how to say it. It is not taught in the seminaries anymore, and most of the older priests have forgotten it and don’t know their Latin anymore.

I go to the NO 5 or 6 times a week, but once a week, on Sunday, I go to a TLM, and I do find it much more reverential and inspiring than the NO.

Mary

Thank you!! Finally, a concise article on what happened. I’m sure the priests could take a refresher course and again become familiar with the TLM. Again, if Vatican II stated that the TLM should continue, then why wasn’t Latin and instruction in the TLM part of the cirriculum for priests? Why if you needed a proper altar, railings, and a Tabernacle, were they all removed?

Yes, I did know Protestants were there but was told they were there as observers which seemed odd. Why attend if their imput wasn’t desired. Who would waste their time? And this begs the question as to how many Protestants became Catholics because we changed the Mass?

Besides the ditzy, and sacrilegious, puppet, clown, and dancing “masses”, there is the anticipation by some of more changes to come. Can’t blame them. I know of women who are presently active in the NO, waiting for the Church to allow women to become priests. Also priests who have stated that someday the Church will allow priests to marry.

 

[Brooklyn]

Thank you!! Finally, a concise article on what happened. I’m sure the priests could take a refresher course and again become familiar with the TLM. Again, if Vatican II stated that the TLM should continue, then why wasn’t Latin and instruction in the TLM part of the cirriculum for priests? Why if you needed a proper altar, railings, and a Tabernacle, were they all removed?

Yes, I did know Protestants were there but was told they were there as observers which seemed odd. Why attend if their imput wasn’t desired. Who would waste their time? And this begs the question as to how many Protestants became Catholics because we changed the Mass?

Besides the ditzy, and sacrilegious, puppet, clown, and dancing “masses”, there is the anticipation by some of more changes to come. Can’t blame them. I know of women who are presently active in the NO, waiting for the Church to allow women to become priests. Also priests who have stated that someday the Church will allow priests to marry.

In 1973, Our Lady appeared in Akita, Japan, an approved apparition. She left several different messages, but her last message was very interesting:

The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord

ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm

I think that there are, unfortunately, many apostates in the Catholic Church in our time. The devil seems to be on an all-out attack. In that message at Akita, our Lady said:

The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests

We live in times where we must have a very discerning spirit, to try all those who claim to have the truth. We can’t do this on our own, but must be very prayerful and submissive to our Lord. Always ask our Lady to guide us in the right way.

I believe there is a very great reward for those who will cling to the truth no matter the consequences.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

whatever! How delusional some people are.

"It is 40 years ago today since the New Mass of Paul VI was introduced into our parishes, writes Margery Popinstar, editor of The Capsule. We knew at the time that this liturgy was as close to perfection as humanly possible, but little did we guess what an efflorescence of art, architecture, music and worship lay ahead!

There were fears at first that the vernacular service would damage the solemnity of the Mass. How silly! Far from leading to liturgical abuses, the New Mass nurtured a koinonia that revived Catholic culture and packed our reordered churches to the rafters.

So dramatic was the growth in family Mass observance, indeed, that a new school of Catholic architecture arose to provide places of worship for these new congregations. Throughout the Western world, churches sprang up that combined Christian heritage with the thrilling simplicity of the modern school, creating a sense of the numinous that has proved as irresistible to secular visitors as to the faithful.

…]"

Damian Thompson
Telegraph.co.uk
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100018329/happy-40th-birthday-novus-ordo/

 

[aicirt]

“No Place for God” is a book on modern Church arcitecture and criticism of this trend. Interesting to note that in one of the critiques on the book, the work of a Lutheran architect and his beliefs concerning Church architecture did influence the Catholic Church. You can google the title and read the reviews. Sorry, couldn’t cite it here.

Happy to say that this trend is, apparently, coming to an end.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am sad to say that this is what happens when mixing faiths. the distinguished is no longer there. we all must be the same in order to get along. the quest for peace with others, means we must give up many things including changing the buildings, the way we say Mass, this must be is close to protestants services as possible. that is why we have bands in the Church, women are more active in the Sanctuary and so forth. the CC is not so different from protestants churches anymore. the priests no longer wear their habits, they are no longer recognized on the street. i guess i dont have to say any more.

will we ever get our identity back?

 

[JustaServant]

In my diocese there is one TLM for several hundred NOs. Over fifty percent of Catholics don’t know the TLM exists so how can they be demanding it? The vast majority of Catholics don’t even attend weekly Mass - clearly unattached to the NO. Devoted Catholics to the TLM are making their voices heard as are young seminarians and our Holy Father.

And I beleive that is the key. The future is often determined by resurrecting what was in the past. The Sacred Liturgy will always be preserved until He comes.

 

[ProVobis]

There is no shorter Mass than a low EF Mass. 20-25 minutes locally.

Not true. Take away the homily and communion, my daily OF could be done in 10 minutes. But some still think it’s too long and just come in for the communion and walk right out.

 

[Ockham]

Ummm…“positive TLM story”…??? I don’t think that yet another article lampooning the Ordinary Form of the Mass qualifies as a “positive TLM story”. If someone was to post a similar article attacking the TLM me doth think the traditionalists would be screaming bloody murder.

I can see how you can view the article as an attack, but tell me where it’s wrong.

The majority of post-NO Catholics don’t attend Mass at all so how’s that for ‘limited interest’ in the liturgy?

 

[ncjohn]

I can see how you can view the article as an attack, but tell me where it’s wrong.

The majority of post-NO Catholics don’t attend Mass at all so how’s that for ‘limited interest’ in the liturgy?

And that still begs the question: How is lampooning the Ordinary Form of the Mass of the Roman Catholic Church a “positive TLM story”?

I’m not even going to bother to get into the discussion of declining Mass attendance, which far predates Vatican II, or the reasons for it, as they are irrelevant to the question while having nothing to do with the form of the Mass. What is relevant is the fact that you seem to think that denigrating fellow Catholics is a “positive” thing and that somehow that is going to make us all enthusiastic about supporting your desires. All I hear is “Thank you Father for not making me like those other silly Catholics (if they really are Catholics at all).” Seems like I read something similar to that somewhere…

Talk about being your own worst enemy.