Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

[wisdomseeker]

As for me, i want the best for the King. the most beautiful, the most reverent, the greatest Worship that He deserved. it is not about me or you. it is all about Him. should we not take care of what He has given us. i know some mentatality out there adopted the attitude that God doesnt care. this is not the point, He gave His life for us, should He not get all the best in this world to Him.

just look at Solomon’s Temple built for the King. are we so proud is to deny that to our KIng and Lord?

 

[SouthpawLink]

"It is 40 years ago today since the New Mass of Paul VI was introduced into our parishes, writes Margery Popinstar, editor of The Capsule. We knew at the time that this liturgy was as close to perfection as humanly possible, but little did we guess what an efflorescence of art, architecture, music and worship lay ahead!

There were fears at first that the vernacular service would damage the solemnity of the Mass. How silly! Far from leading to liturgical abuses, the New Mass nurtured a koinonia that revived Catholic culture and packed our reordered churches to the rafters.

So dramatic was the growth in family Mass observance, indeed, that a new school of Catholic architecture arose to provide places of worship for these new congregations. Throughout the Western world, churches sprang up that combined Christian heritage with the thrilling simplicity of the modern school, creating a sense of the numinous that has proved as irresistible to secular visitors as to the faithful.

…]"

Damian Thompson
Telegraph.co.uk
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100018329/happy-40th-birthday-novus-ordo/

This sounds sarcastic:

"We knew at the time that this liturgy was as close to perfection as humanly possible, but little did we guess what an efflorescence of art, architecture, music and worship lay ahead!

“There were fears at first that the vernacular service would damage the solemnity of the Mass. How silly! Far from leading to liturgical abuses, the New Mass nurtured a koinonia that revived Catholic culture and packed our reordered churches to the rafters.”

• If the Holy Mass “was as close to perfection as humanly possible” then why change it? Why tone down the truth that the Mass is a sacrifice? Why make the Mass entirely in the vernacular when Sacrosanctum Concilium said that Latin was to be retained?
• The solemnity was greatly damaged. The English translation made the Mass banal and unsacral. It was a paraphrase, rather than a literal translation of the Roman Missal.
• No liturgical abuses? Should I post some YouTube videos, which show otherwise? Just last Christmas, I saw - on national TV - a woman dressed up in what appeared to be priestly vestments, and she seemed to be leading the congregation, while the priest sat off to the side.
• The parishes were not packed to the rafters. Many people left the Church after the Second Vatican Council and the introduction of the new Mass. Priestly and other religigious vocations dropped significantly. Mass attendance today is much lower than it was in the '50s and early '60s.

seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119.html

My hope is that the proper English translation of the Roman Missal, which should be coming in the next year or two, will finally give us the solemn Mass of Paul VI, which we should have had since 1970…

 

[ProVobis]

My hope is that the proper English translation of the Roman Missal, which should be coming in the next year or two, will finally give us the solemn Mass of Paul VI, which we should have had since 1970…

All Masses are solemn, whether there’s abuse or not, a bad “paraphrase” or not, whether in Latin or Sanskrit or jive or anything else, or whether they’re completed in 4 minutes or 4 hours, as long as they’re pre-approved by the Vatican.

 

[ncjohn]

You and Lily blow things out of proportion. I’m not “attacking” the Mass nor do I take ownership over it.

Oh, please…

Nearly every post you write is centered around either attacking or ridiculing the OF, those who prefer the OF, or some specific aspect such as chruch architecture or some discipline approved by the Church.

The facts are the Novus Ordo is a less reverent form of worship, catechesis, devotions, and practices all declined since the misinterpreted “spirit of V2”, and our Church has suffered as a consequence. This isn’t about my personal preference, “attacking” or any other diversionary tactic you throw out there. This is about Traditional Catholics’ desire for a restoration from the damage done by the past forty years.

No, that is not a “fact” in any way, shape or form, nor does the Church or the Pope agree wtih you. For that to be a “fact” the TLM would have to be inherently and objectively–meaning always and everywhere–more reverent and in some way “better”. The pure and simple FACT is that reverence is subjective. The pure and simple FACT is that there have been and continue to be abuses and lack of reverence in each form. The pure and simple FACT is that the reverence, or lack thereof, is totally dependent on the priest celebrating and the people in the pews. Lack of reverence on either side diminishes the Mass and neither form is even close to immune to that.

But the more important FACT is that the Mass isn’t about us. It is about God and our worship of Him. It is glorious beyond words in either form because it is the expression of the love of His people for Him. You can make all kinds of speculative claims about the OF not being centered on God, as if you have some kind of omniscience and can read anyone else’s hearts, but the fact of the matter is that there are holy and devoted people on both “sides”.

There is no “fact” of the TLM being more reverent. As long as you cling to that idea you are, quite frankly, guilty of idolatry in placing the vehicle ahead of its true purpose and trying to make small “t” traditions into Traditions of God.

I’m sure I’m not going to change your mind though as you are so trapped in your little world that anyone having even a preference that differs from yours is perceived as a threat that must be ridiculed if it can’t be destroyed. I’ve tried to bring some peace since I truly do support the idea of having both forms available but I’ll have to leave it as that as there is clearly no reciprical wish for any kind of peace. As one who follows the Prince of Peace who gave his life to bring it to us, I find that incredibly sad.

 

[ncjohn]

Just conveying that which I’ve experienced with the NO folks.[/quot4e]In the interest of charity I’ll not even address the unChristian attitudes I’ve endured from some “TLM folks” while trying to help them achieve their objectives.

I’m not making it up. It’s not that I want

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

“For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.” (Ephesians 6:12)

Peace

 

[Ockham]

Nearly every post you write is centered around either attacking or ridiculing the OF, those who prefer the OF, or some specific aspect such as chruch architecture or some discipline approved by the Church.

Nearly every? As a percentage? Am I the Novus Ordo Catholics’ greatest critic? Attacking and ridiculing are excessive, don’t ya think? Perhaps you and Lily are overly sensitive. Are you both lectures or EMHCs?

No, that is not a “fact” in any way, shape or form, nor does the Church or the Pope agree wtih you. For that to be a “fact” the TLM would have to be inherently and objectively–meaning always and everywhere–more reverent and in some way “better”.

Please don’t continue to insult anyone’s intelligence by asserting the Novus Ordo is as reverent as the Tridentine. The NO was created to be a watered down version of our liturgy in order to attract Protestants and appease “Me Generation” liturgical liberals.

But the more important FACT is that the Mass isn’t about us. It is about God and our worship of Him.

Precisely as it should be. Unfortunately, the Novus Ordo takes that focus off God and onto mortals with the constant interuptions of laity storming the sanctuary, ad populus, vernacluar, clamshell architecture, holding hand, shaking hands, etc.

It is glorious beyond words in either form because it is the expression of the love of His people for Him. You can make all kinds of speculative claims about the OF not being centered on God, as if you have some kind of omniscience and can read anyone else’s hearts, but the fact of the matter is that there are holy and devoted people on both “sides”.

Here’s an overview of the typical NO Mass:

• No opportunity for the Sacrament of Confession
• Greeters. 'Nuff said
• Prior to Mass: Chatting in the pews. Majority don’t genuflect. Almost no one in prayer.
• Master of Ceremonies makes mundane announcements
• Orans Posture by laity
• Lectors and Cantors
• “God loves you…you should love Him…love one another” type homily
• Pop/Folk Sing-songy hymns, sometimes written by one of the greatest schmatics: Luther
• Various options to the Canon. You never know for sure what you’re going to get
• Some parishes kneel, some stand, options…
• Hand holding during Pater Noster
• Sign of Peace free for all, people waving, crossing aisles, embracing
• EMHCs whether needed or not (albeit never actually needed)
• Nearly 100% receive Holy Communion even though practically no one goes to Confession anymore
• After Mass: Applause for the choir, sometimes birthday or anniversary announcements, chatting, almost no one in prayer.

If that’s your definition of glorious then there is not much point in continuing our discussion.

There is no “fact” of the TLM being more reverent. As long as you cling to that idea you are, quite frankly, guilty of idolatry in placing the vehicle ahead of its true purpose and trying to make small “t” traditions into Traditions of God.

Please don’t accuse me or anyone else of idolatry for pointing out the obvious. Put the NO and TLM beside each other and ask yourself why the NO has removed so many prayers, genuflections, signs of the cross, kneeling, etc.

I’m sure I’m not going to change your mind though as you are so trapped in your little world that anyone having even a preference that differs from yours is perceived as a threat that must be ridiculed if it can’t be destroyed. I’ve tried to bring some peace since I truly do support the idea of having both forms available but I’ll have to leave it as that as there is clearly no reciprical wish for any kind of peace. As one who follows the Prince of Peace who gave his life to bring it to us, I find that incredibly sad.

Nor do I believe I’ll change your or your fellow liturgical liberals minds. It will take generations for our Church to recover from the damage done by the “Me Generation”. As the Lord said,

“Forty years I loathed that generation; I said: “This people’s heart goes astray, they do not know my ways.” Therefore I swore in my anger: “They shall never enter my rest.””.

Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo. We’ve been through worse. We’ll endure.

 

[keepitreal]

There were many abuses unfortuneatly regarding the New mass. Many illicit things. Not to put a damper on the NO, but there were illicit things in the TLM too. There were things lost and gained. These are just some examples how some parishes have fallen to the way side.

Oh yeah? And just what were these “illicit things” in the pre-VII Mass?

 

[vz71]

Having attended many a Novus Ordo Mass from several different hurches, I believe this deception should be addressed.
You are lying to us. It IS NOT typical.
From the various celebrations of the Mass I have attended…

Here’s an overview of the typical NO Mass:

• No opportunity for the Sacrament of Confession

Not true. Confession heard during the preceeding hour before Mass is said.
There is also the penitential rite that is recited during Mass.

• Greeters. 'Nuff said

Where? I’ve not seen them in any Catholic church I have ever attended.

• Prior to Mass: Chatting in the pews. Majority don’t genuflect. Almost no one in prayer.

Not at all. People are either waiting for their turn in the confessional or praying their penance.

• Master of Ceremonies makes mundane announcements

What exactly is a “Master of Ceremonies”?? I’ve never heard of this.

• Orans Posture by laity

Rarely seen. Having attended Novus Ordo for several decades, I would think I would have seen more of this.

• Lectors and Cantors

Sorry, but I fail to see how reading and singing the bible as a bad thing.

• “God loves you…you should love Him…love one another” type homily

Oh the horror. The priest gives us a homily on love.

• Pop/Folk Sing-songy hymns, sometimes written by one of the greatest schmatics: Luther

You need to be more specific. You wish to characterize a ‘typical’ Mass, you need specifics.

• Various options to the Canon. You never know for sure what you’re going to get

You do if you pay attention.

• Some parishes kneel, some stand, options…

Hardly. The vast majority do not abuse this. If you wish to portray typical, try to stick with typical and not atypical.

• Hand holding during Pater Noster

Some do, some do not.

• Sign of Peace free for all, people waving, crossing aisles, embracing

Hardly. I have only seen a few where this is actually an issue. These were at a high school and the students were the cause.

• EMHCs whether needed or not (albeit never actually needed)

Rarely seen this either. If anything, the majority of the time there is a lack of help.

• Nearly 100% receive Holy Communion even though practically no one goes to Confession anymore

Admittedly there are problems with this, but one can readily argue that this is not an issue of flavor of Mass and more an issue of faithlessness of the flock.

• After Mass: Applause for the choir, sometimes birthday or anniversary announcements, chatting, almost no one in prayer.

Another rarity.

You list a bunch of characteristics and label them as typical of the Novus Ordo.
Clearly they are not.
You are attempting to deceive us.

 

[pnewton]

Maybe I misunderstood you, pnewton. I thought the issue was a rot-from-within phenomenon that, some would argue, led to Vatican II. My point was that the rot had been slowly growing—albeit held in check by the likes of Pope St. Pius X—and that, furthermore, Vatican II was not a response to the rot but rather the culmination of it.

Peace in Christ

I would never call the Holy Catholic Church meeting in council as a “culmination of rot.” I guess that is the difference between us. I expect such statements from anticatholics. It saddens me to here it from catholics.

 

[pnewton]

Otherwise, there ain’t no way you’re gonna pray for wider availability of the TLM?

I will not, any more than I will pray that the Marionite Rite becomes more predominate than the Roman Rite. Jesus is the same. The Sacrament is just as Holy. Any Catholic who has true faith in the Real Presence of Christ recognizes that all this is Heaven joining with Earth and opening the channel of Grace. The Mass. Not the TLM or the “NO”. The Mass. That is what I desire. We walk by faith and not sight. We should not need a certain trapping, language or “feeling” to know we are in the presence of God. When I read statements like the TLM is more reverant I want to know when God revealed this to them. No, the TLM feels more reverant to them.

LilyM wrote:
" it’s one and the SAME Mass - one and the SAME sacrifice - whether TLM or NO. Just two different forms. Neither of which belongs to you or me or anyone."

So, even though the NO has had (and to this very day still has) clown and puppet “Masses,” presiders who use coffee cups for a chalice (I’ve seen this), and not infrequent flushings of unused communion wafers and wine down the toilet, and, what is more, the TLM never has instances of such sacrileges, still “it’s one and the SAME Mass - one and the SAME sacrifice”?

My experience with those who opt for the OF is that a great many of them want to think that everyone will go to Heaven, that people are inherently good and that if we just care enough and smile enough then everything will be all right—in short, that “yes we can!” make the world a Utopia. I said “a great many,” and I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush here and offend OF adherents who most emphatically do not share those utopian fantasies.

“Wow, less than 10 posts into a new membership and already making snide comments about something I have been publicly supporting for years.”

Just conveying that which I’ve experienced with the NO folks. I’m not making it up. It’s not that I want to think of them as utopians—they actually are utopians (not all, as I said, but a good many of them). You can refer to facts as “snide comments” all you want, and it won’t change the truth of what I say.

Since I doubt anyone has every introduced themselves as a Utopian, yes, it is your opinion. All you show is that you can not tell the difference between opinion and fact, that you think the worse of others and you have a deep-rooted bigotry against those who attend the Mass that is not yours.

You have revealed a lot about yourself. Unfortunately, what I have heard does not recommend the value of the TLM.

 

[Ockham]

You list a bunch of characteristics and label them as typical of the Novus Ordo.
Clearly they are not.
You are attempting to deceive us.

If these traits are foreign to you be very thankful. If you honestly believe they are not common then stick around these forums for awhile and you’ll see otherwise. Don’t accuse someone of lying or deception unless positive of your assertions. That’s not very charitable of you.

 

[pnewton]

If these traits are foreign to you be very thankful. If you honestly believe they are not common then stick around these forums for awhile and you’ll see otherwise.

I have been around for a while. They are not common. I once ran a survey in the** Liturgy and Sacraments** forum to test a claim about a common abuse. Once you get among mainstream Catholics, you find few have ever seen or heard of the wacky stuff portrayed here. Instead, we have a reoccuring strawman.

vz71

Surveys are free. If you want to test a topic, run one. For example, you could run a survey on whether people kneel or stand during the Consecration. I am sure the results would not surprise you, but it would help strengthen the idea that traditionalists love their strawmen. Parody, satire and carachature do not make for truth. It is a low form of insult and obscures truth.

 

[rein_me_in_Lord]

pnewton wrote:
“…what I have heard does not recommend the value of the TLM.”

Fair enough. I would suggest you research the TLM yourself, then. Also, you might want to spend some time reading Church history as well as pre-Vatican II encyclicals. Meditate on what you’ve read, and I can assure you that you will eventually gain a profound insight into the difference between the NO and the TLM. Oh, and BTW, regular attendance at a TLM (the sacrificing priest of which is committed to the TLM) is probably the most important thing you could do to enlighten yourself about the TLM.
My comments, pnewton, are not to be taken as condemning, trashing, or mocking you or anyone else in this forum (or anyone who chooses to attend the NO, for that matter). Your replies to my posts suggest to me that you believe that is what I am about here (sorry you take it that way; I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings). No, this is not about the people who attend NO services—it’s about the NO services themselves. I am convinced that the problems found in the Church are the result of the innovations perpetrated by the Second Vatican Council. We were told at that time that it was now “Springtime” in the Church, as though up until then things were a drag. Take a look around at what 40 years of “Springtime” have done. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[Timothysis]

we love the Church, but i dont want to go to Mass in a Church that have no kneelers, the Altar is on the Center, and the choir sounds like radio songs, and i dont like the new buildings.

So, you prefer to forgo receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ because "i dont want to go to Mass in a Church that have no kneelers, the Altar is on the Center, and the choir sounds like radio songs, and i dont like the new buildings?"
Unbelievable…and I thought that it was the "Novus Ordo Catholics" who thought it was "all about me."

I sincerely hope that you find the wisdom you seek.

 

[ProVobis]

You have revealed a lot about yourself.

Since when is bias a bad thing? The Romans used a phrase “De gustibus non est disputandum” a lot. I hope you know what that means.

 

[wisdomseeker]

So, you prefer to forgo receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ because "i dont want to go to Mass in a Church that have no kneelers, the Altar is on the Center, and the choir sounds like radio songs, and i dont like the new buildings?"
Unbelievable…and I thought that it was the "Novus Ordo Catholics" who thought it was "all about me."

I sincerely hope that you find the wisdom you seek.

Hey i will not support such a thing. i will find the Parish that is reverent to our God and Worship Him in Truth. in my home town i go to one after visiting many of them around here, the one i go to is the best i could find. one priest is ok, the other is all about him and the people,and the older priest(i like his Mass, it is quiet and reverent). oh well, today i got good news though, i just read in the bulletin for the first time they are offering Latin classes. this is encouraging.
you just dont know but the people i talk to from the Church, many are upset wiht what is going on in the Church around here. i think if things dont change, people will leave.
i will support those who try to bring the highest Worship to God and will not support those who mocks the House of God.

 

[ProVobis]

So, you prefer to forgo receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ because "i dont want to go to Mass in a Church that have no kneelers, the Altar is on the Center, and the choir sounds like radio songs, and i dont like the new buildings?"

You don’t need to attend Mass at all to receive Christ.

 

[Timothysis]

i will support those who try to bring the highest Worship to God and will not support those who mocks the House of God.

Hopefully, you are able to discern such things; your previously quoted statement, however, does not reflect the most open mind.

 

[Timothysis]

You don’t need to attend Mass at all to receive Christ.

All catholics have a grave duty to attend Mass on Sundays and Days of Obligation. We are not obligated to receive, but we still must attend. How do you deduce that we “don’t need to attend Mass at all to receive Christ” in the Eucharist?