Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

[babyjesus]

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[Ockham]

:ehh: I’m neither. I was, years ago, and deliberately chose to stop. So sorry to disappoint.

At the risk of disappointing you even further, I wholheartedly agree with you that EMHCs are way overused, and have said as much to people who are EMHCs.

I’m not disappointed just curious as to why some people are so hostile towards the TLM and people who support it. It seems like sometimes people come into the Traditional Catholic forum looking for a fight.

 

[aicirt]

For those that want to, I agree.

GOOD!! WE AGREE!!:extrahappy:

You are leaving it up to the individual to choose which Mass he will attend. That’s what should have been done 40 years ago. It is nice to have a choice.

Do you have a problem with the Tabernacle being placed back either on or at the center of the main area of the altar?

At the TLM, the first pews are left empty so, at communion, we file across and use the kneelers to receive. Replacement of the actual railing isn’t necessary.

But the placement of the Tabernacle is a sign of respect. What’s your feelings?

 

[pnewton]

I think it would be wise to experience the Mass in every approved form.

And I would like to be standing a few yards away from Ockham with a camera for that Charismatic Mass.

I actually made one LifeTeen Mass. It was after my daughter came back from some conference. I am happy for the kids those that like it, but it is not for me.

 

[pnewton]

You are leaving it up to the individual to choose which Mass he will attend. That’s what should have been done 40 years ago. It is nice to have a choice.

Do you have a problem with the Tabernacle being placed back either on or at the center of the main area of the altar?

At the Our tabernacle is behind the altar. As I said, I have no objection to any change that is mandated. I personally think a return to celebrating ad orientum would be a postive change. In that, though, I probably am in the minority.

FYI - I support most Traditionalist initiatives, including greater use of Latin in liturgy (which I do), ad orientum, the availability of the TLM where desired so that people do not have to drive an hour to go to one, the reunification of the SSPX. I do not support or believe the laity should be elevated to the level of the clergy in determining such matters though.

 

[CradleCath]

That’s not uncommon. It calls into question the “there isn’t much demand for it” claims.

Wow. Who is your bishop!

I’ve sat on parish liturgical committees and can attest they are very political. Those with ulterior motives work diligently and relentlessly to promote their agenda. Things like liturgical dance don’t happen spontaneously. Let’s not forget Communion in the hand started in North America as an abuse, the Pope ruled against it, and yet we ended up with it as the defacto norm. How did that happen if not for behind the scenes action?

My Bishop:
The Devil And Bishop Finn: Catholic Prelate Wages Spiritual War To Enforce God’s Law
blog.au.org/2009/04/23/the-devil-and-bishop-finn-catholic-prelate-wages-spiritual-war-to-enforce-gods-law/

The group that wrote this derogatory article is one called “America United”. Click on the “about us” link & you’ll find that AU is very much like the ACLU. Their agenda is to keep the Church from addressing the moral issues inherent in politics. They are going to “educate” the public on church-state separation. They don’t seem to understand that the first amendment to the Constitution merely Istates that **“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or **prohibiting the free exercise thereof” ****.In other words, they want God left behind when one enters the voting booth & have distorted the words of the laws of our land to push their agenda
They are just the latest group attacking my Bishop because of his words re voting for pro-abortion candidates. NCR started the attacks when he replaced members of the “good-ole-boys” laity who were in charge of the diocese apostolates & replaced them with priests.

Please pray for him. He’s done as much as he can do to further the Latin Mass in the diocese. However, right now, because of his stance on abortion, gay marriage, etc., he needs to take some time before pushing it more.

 

[LilyM]

I’m not disappointed just curious as to why some people are so hostile towards the TLM and people who support it. It seems like sometimes people come into the Traditional Catholic forum looking for a fight.

Uh huh. And from where I sit just as many of them are Traditional Catholics as not.

I’m not at all hostile towards the TLM. I AM hostile to those who suggest that there is any kind of flaw (such as inherent susceptibility to abuse or Protestantisation or what have you) at the root of the NO. And most of you have at least been very strongly implying that the form itself is the source of at least some of the problems.

As I’ve said previously, the Mass - the source and summit of our faith - is of all things one that the Holy Spirit would most jealously guard from any such flaw at its root. If a validly promulgated and rubrically celebrated Mass cannot be trusted (and even Trent anathematised the suggestion that such a Mass is capable of leading the faithful into impiety), then nothing is protected and nothing can be trusted.

 

[Ockham]

I’m not at all hostile towards the TLM. I AM hostile to those who suggest that there is any kind of flaw (such as inherent susceptibility to abuse or Protestantisation or what have you) at the root of the NO. And most of you have at least been very strongly implying that the form itself is the source of at least some of the problems.

I’ll take that into consideration. At first glance I’d tend to agree with your observations. However, the misinterpreted “spirit of V2” played a major factor in taking the NO as originally designed to what most of us see now on Sunday. So it’s not the form of the NO exclusively, but when mixed with liturgical liberalism and ulterior motives of the Modernist agenda it is vulnerable to abuse.

 

[Monty61]

In 1973, Our Lady appeared in Akita, Japan, an approved apparition. She left several different messages, but her last message was very interesting:

ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm

I think that there are, unfortunately, many apostates in the Catholic Church in our time. The devil seems to be on an all-out attack. In that message at Akita, our Lady said:

We live in times where we must have a very discerning spirit, to try all those who claim to have the truth. We can’t do this on our own, but must be very prayerful and submissive to our Lord. Always ask our Lady to guide us in the right way.

I believe there is a very great reward for those who will cling to the truth no matter the consequences.

This dovetails very well with material in the book “The Rhine Flows into the Tiber.” It is a history of Vatican II and how it was conducted; especially how the northern European Bishops formed political voting blocks to ensure their agenda was accomplished at the Council. Most of their meetings and policy formulations were conducted outside the council.

Specific to the above quote by the Blessed Mother (about Bishops being mocked by other Bishops for venerating the Blessed Mother), the traditionalist Bishops wanted a separate constitution regarding Church teaching on the Blessed Mother. However, the progressive coalition pushed the Blessed Mother constitution to be an appendix to another constitution, on the grounds that the Catholic Church’s traditional teaching, if emphasized by giving its own constitution, would unnecessarily make debate with the Protestants more uncomfortable. The progressives won the vote.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

**Someone wrote: ** *Depends where you were. There was a “Transitional” Missal released in 1965 which was essentially the EF, but celebrated almost entirely in the Vernacular. IIRC, this was not used everywhere, but then it wasn’t during my lifetime, so others will have to verify that. *​

The enthusiasm expressed about the Novus Ordo just baffles me! It was not the engine of renewal in the Church that enthusiasts describe; it surely accounted for massive decliness in Catholics’ attendance at Mass and for the dreadful fall in priestly vocations. The 1965 liturgy seems precious by comparison with that of 1970!

I was put off from “swimming the Tiber” in no small part due to the appalling trashing of Catholic worship that resulted from the Novus Ordo! Finally, I have swallowed my reservations and go to a local church that worships with the Novus Ordo, holding my nose and trying desperately to stifle my distaste, which never will disappear, simply because, despite the liturgical and artistic crimes that the Church has inflicted upon itself for its Western (“Latin” No More for all practical purposes) Rite, it still is the genuine Mass that the priest offers up in the Novus Ordo Mass at the inverted altar. I used to experience such bliss, spiritual and artistic, in the 1962 genuine Vatican II Mass and, only somewhat less, in the 1965 Mass, but never, alas, shall I ever experience that with the Novus Ordo.

The 1965 Mass in some parishes was celebrated in Latin or in a mix of Latin and the vernacular. I am old enough to remember that, singing in a Gregorian Choir back then.

Don’t make us laud what is so deficient! Obedience to attending the Novus Ordo Mass is punishment enough for Catholics who knew the glories of the 1962 and 1965 Rites’ worship! Due to the recalcitrance of the local bishop here, no provisions for the 1962 Mass ever will be available in this diocese, which also is the case in all too many others, despite Benedict XVI’s generous provision and urgings.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[vz71]

Don’t make us laud what is so deficient!

Just a minor nitpick I want to clarify…
I know many that believe similarly.
But do not fall into the line of thinking that says a pefectly valid Mass is deficient.

A valid Mass, no matter how inartistic or otherwise, is a valid Mass.
And therefore sufficient, not deficient.

Many of us may cringe at the perceived lack of reverence, but let us put some things into perspective.
God humbled himself infinitely just being born of the Virgin Mary as a member of the human race.
The jump in perceived reverence from the TLM to the Novus Ordo is insignificant in comparison.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Sorry about that inexactitude in my earlier posting. When I stated that the Novus Ordo is “deficient”, I did not mean that in a theological sense; that is clear from my words that the Novus Ordo is a real Mass, despite how disappointingly it is formulated. The N.O. is artistically and spiritually deficient, not deficient in what makes for a valid Mass.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[Alindawyl]

The N.O. is artistically and spiritually deficient, not deficient in what makes for a valid Mass.

Although I agree that the TLM is artistically superior to the OF, that’s a subjective assessment rather than an objective assessment. Even how we feel spiritually about the Mass is likewise subjective, being a feeling. The efficaciousness of the sacraments has never depended on their artistry or how they make us feel, but what they actually do.

Since the Church has decided the ordinary form is the ordinary form then we are bound to accept it, even if we attend a Latin Mass instead. For all we know, God is testing us to see how many are willing to “bear wrongs patiently” when it affects us personally

 

[Ockham]

Jerry, find yourself a TLM somehow, someway.

 

[vz71]

Jerry, find yourself a TLM somehow, someway.

I fail to understand exactly why.

If the Novus Ordo is valid, then why go out of our way to find another equally valid Mass?

 

[pnewton]

It seems like sometimes people come into the Traditional Catholic forum looking for a fight.

I can answer that. This thread is not about Traditional Catholicism. Read the title. This thread was started as an attack on the Mass. Exactly who was “looking for the fight”? You start an argumentative thread and then wonder that arguement takes place?

Exactly what did you think would take place with this thread you started? Playful bashing of the Mass among traditionalists?

 

[pnewton]

The N.O. is artistically and spiritually deficient, not deficient in what makes for a valid Mass.

Pax, Jerry Parker

You know, I can totally respect those that find the Mass today artistically deficient. However, I see an ablsolute conflict with a valid Mass being considered spiritually deficient. When one has the Holy Eucharist, one has everything one needs. How much more availability of infinite grace does one need? I just can not seem to reconcile those two ideas.

 

[vz71]

I see an ablsolute conflict with a valid Mass being considered spiritually deficient. When one has the Holy Eucharist, one has everything one needs. How much more availability of infinite grace does one need? I just can not seem to reconcile those two ideas.

I can see a certain logic and a trap that the traditionalists may easily fall into.

There is a fairly good dislike and dare I say hatred for the Novus Ordo Mass. Words alone cannot accurately portray their dislike for the Mass.

But then they run squarely into the validity of the Mass, and therefore the approval of God. So they run into a deep dislike for something that God has approved.

I imagine it is not unlike the Disciples mentioned in John Chapter 6.
Christ’s words were not something they wanted to hear at all. Some left and never returned. Others, like Peter, stuck around because the truth is the truth no matter how we may feel about it.

It is a question of obedience.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

The attitude that just because the Novus Ordo offers enough to qualify as a real Eucharist (which it does) does not respond to the aspiration of wanting to offer up to God the best possible of our human efforts and potentials, artistic, spiritual, and otherwise. The Masses of 1962 and of 1965 were condusive to liturgical excellence. The 1970 liturgy is conducive to little more than mere efficiency,

Those who never have known the glories of the 1962 Missale Romanum are not in much of a position to pontificate on the superiority of the Novus Ordo. For those who did know the old liturgy at its fullest, the 40th anniversary of the N.O. is not an occasion for celebration, but for regret for so much that was precious that has been washed away, cast aside, wasted. Mere sufficiency is not for what the human heart aspires most worthily. One has to put up with the N.O., in order to be faithful as a Catholic, but knowing that one lives with it in an impoverished age, on a bleak and blasted hearth.

When one lives in an isolated, remote, and rather small town in the Abitibi, there is no resort possible to the provisions of Benedict XVI’s provisions for the 1962 liturgy. Hereabouts it is gone, vanished, and banished, and that, alas, is it. I seek spiritual beauty and depth in traditional devotions, not finding anything but the bare essentials of the Eucharist in its public “celebration” to give devotions the particular sustenance that only the Holy Communion can provide as a grounding for them.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[pnewton]

The attitude that just because the Novus Ordo offers enough to qualify as a real Eucharist (which it does) does not respond to the aspiration of wanting to offer up to God the best possible of our human efforts and potentials, artistic, spiritual, and otherwise.

What does God want from us?

Micah 6:6 - 8

With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow before God most high? Shall I come before him with holocausts, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my crime, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God.

Hosea 6:6

For it is love that I desire, not sacrifice, and knowledge of God rather than holocausts.

Psalm 51: 18-19

For you do not desire sacrifice; a burnt offering you would not accept. My sacrifice, God, is a broken spirit; God, do not spurn a broken, humbled heart.

I can not speak for you, but when I go to Mass, I do bring my best, such as it is. The Eucharist is the source of summit of out Faith. What you suggest is true, but has little to do with the specific liturgy we attend. We decide every time we attend Mass what we bring before God. If there is a failing, then that failing is within us.