Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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I suppose the ‘mindlessly reciting memorised portions’ never happened or happens in the TLM? If not, it would only be because at times the laity don’t EVEN recite any portions, in any manner whatsoever.
I never said they didn’t. However, one of the purposes of the NO was to increase “active participation”. My contention is that people aren’t necessarily participating more now than they were before the Mass was changed. Personally, I read my missal thus pray the entire Mass along with the priest so my participation is higher at a TLM than a NO.

Of course most Catholics don’t bother going to Mass anymore so overall participation has dropped since the NO became the norm. So too has belief in the Real Presence and other teachings of the Church, but hey, the priest doesn’t have his back to us anymore and he uses the same language spoken in the vestibule.
 
I didn’t mean you you. Merely the royal you, youse, you know, the critics of the TLM who claimed the 7-minute Mass was an abuse.
The main advantage of claiming this type of argument is that you can pick and choose the direction of the argument from the plethora of responses.
How comforting. If one feels they may be on the losing side, they can simply slide of into some other debate within the same thread.
 
Of course most Catholics don’t bother going to Mass anymore so overall participation has dropped since the NO became the norm. So too has belief in the Real Presence and other teachings of the Church, but hey, the priest doesn’t have his back to us anymore and he uses the same language spoken in the vestibule.
I believe you are confusing correlation with causation.
 
I never said they didn’t. However, one of the purposes of the NO was to increase “active participation”. My contention is that people aren’t necessarily participating more now than they were before the Mass was changed. Personally, I read my missal thus pray the entire Mass along with the priest so my participation is higher at a TLM than a NO.

Of course most Catholics don’t bother going to Mass anymore so overall participation has dropped since the NO became the norm. So too has belief in the Real Presence and other teachings of the Church, but hey, the priest doesn’t have his back to us anymore and he uses the same language spoken in the vestibule.
Most Christians of denominations that existed pre-60s don’t bother going to their respective liturgies/church services any more. And I dare say you’d find declining belief in the Real Presence among those of our fellow Christian sects which profess belief in the Real Presence - in the form of consubstantiation or the like. And other formerly-held teachings of theirs (homosexual priests and bishops in Anglicanism is one obvious example, as well as homosexual patnership unions).

Oddly enough the woes of ALL of the mainstream sects of Christianity date from the 60s - but Catholicism is the only one that had any liturgical or theological ‘events’ in the era to speak of. But I suppose you’ll persist in blaming V2 and the NO for everything - in which case it obviously contributed to all our fellow Christians’ woes as well. 🤷
 
The main advantage of claiming this type of argument is that you can pick and choose the direction of the argument from the plethora of responses.
How comforting. If one feels they may be on the losing side, they can simply slide of into some other debate within the same thread.
Ok, I am guilty of accusing the responder with something he or she didn’t say. And I used this “type of argument” to try to save face. I disagree with your assessment of the situation. Dozing off during liturgy or anything else is not a serious matter to me. I’ve seen it in my classrooms and meetings. If people are bored, they’re bored. If people want to sleep, they will sleep. Nothing unusual there. But someone posted it to try to prove something; it proves nothing.
 
When you see the liberties that can be taken with the N.O., you appreciate the rigidity of the TLM. It stops the priest and laity getting inventive. You can abide in peace.
Ok, I am guilty of accusing the responder with something he or she didn’t say. And I used this “type of argument” to try to save face. I disagree with your assessment of the situation. Dozing off during liturgy or anything else is not a serious matter to me. I’ve seen it in my classrooms and meetings. If people are bored, they’re bored. If people want to sleep, they will sleep. Nothing unusual there. But someone posted it to try to prove something; it proves nothing.
Again, you are assigning motives to my post that are not valid. I didn’t post to try to prove anything.

Just responding to Layman’s post “You can abide in peace”.

If you read the words before you, instead of assigning a motive, you (yes, YOU, not the collective), will not have to back-pedal so much.
 
Most Christians of denominations that existed pre-60s don’t bother going to their respective liturgies/church services any more. And I dare say you’d find declining belief in the Real Presence among those of our fellow Christian sects which profess belief in the Real Presence - in the form of consubstantiation or the like. And other formerly-held teachings of theirs (homosexual priests and bishops in Anglicanism is one obvious example, as well as homosexual patnership unions).
Unless you place the Christian denominations on the same level as Catholicism this argument is a red herring. From Matthew 16 Christ created one Church and we lead the others by example. The NO may not have started the slide in attendence but it certainly didn’t reverse it. The fact is the majority of people are not drawn to the NO thus fallen away from the Church entirely. So the next time you place attendence of the NO and TLM beside each other remember where the actual majority is Sunday morning.
 
Again, you are assigning motives to my post that are not valid. I didn’t post to try to prove anything.
I apologize for saying that. However, I don’t apologize for saying/implying that your (singular) post was worthless. I’ve been bored and yawned at times at both OF and EF. So what?
 
There are just far too many of those attached to the TLM who cannot conceive that someone else can find the Pauline Mass just as glorious and just as conducive to their spiritual fulfilment.
John, not to pick on you or anything, but can you please elaborate on how you find the NO just as glorious as the TLM? I don’t dispute that the NO fulfills you spiritually, but I’d like to learn more about how you perceive the differences as they relate to glory.
 
QUOTE=LilyM;6045654]Most Christians of denominations that existed pre-60s don’t bother going to their respective liturgies/church services any more. And I dare say you’d find declining belief in the Real Presence among those of our fellow Christian sects which profess belief in the Real Presence - in the form of consubstantiation or the like. And other formerly-held teachings of theirs (homosexual priests and bishops in Anglicanism is one obvious example, as well as homosexual patnership unions).
You seem to forget that we are members of the CATHOLIC Church…the Church that Christ, Himself, created. We are supposed to** lead **the world. We are supposed to live IN the world, but not OF the world. Your claim that we are “no worse” than Protestant denominations is meaningless. God help us all if that’s the best you can do.
Oddly enough the woes of ALL of the mainstream sects of Christianity date from the 60s - but Catholicism is the only one that had any liturgical or theological ‘events’ in the era to speak of. But I suppose you’ll persist in blaming V2 and the NO for everything -** in which case it obviously contributed to all our fellow Christians’ woes as well**. 🤷
While I know that you said the above in a sarcastic way, you’re right…without even knowing it. SAD!!
 
Unless you place the Christian denominations on the same level as Catholicism this argument is a red herring. From Matthew 16 Christ created one Church and we lead the others by example. The NO may not have started the slide in attendence but it certainly didn’t reverse it. The fact is the majority of people are not drawn to the NO thus fallen away from the Church entirely. So the next time you place attendence of the NO and TLM beside each other remember where the actual majority is Sunday morning.
I posted a reply to Lily M.'s assertion before I read your post. So, you’ll find your thoughts repeated in different words coming up in a post from me. Sorry!!
 
John, not to pick on you or anything, but can you please elaborate on how you find the NO just as glorious as the TLM? I don’t dispute that the NO fulfills you spiritually, but I’d like to learn more about how you perceive the differences as they relate to glory.
There is not any way I don’t find it just as glorious, at least when properly celebrated. I’m not going to deny that there are places where that is not the case, but then I also knew many places where that was not the case with the TLM.

In some ways that I find it glorious you might feel “distracted” but that just emphasizes the point that it is how we most feel called by God that determines which Mass will be more glorious to us. I do find it shocking though when I read such things as the post from the person who mentioned “holding his nose” when attending a Pauline Mass, as if God isn’t every bit as present there as at any other Mass.

Some specifics, which again just point out personal preferences: while you appreciate the mystery of a “set aside” language (which I can understand), I prefer being fully able to understand the words without having to go through translation. The ability to hear somebody saying things in a way I would say them in my own prayers. It is similar to my preference for the New American Bible rather than what I find to be “stilted” language in many of the other versions. I am fully capable of reading either but as long as the meaning is not distorted I much prefer less formal language.

I find it incredibly glorious to have the bulk of the congregation praying and singing together together in praise and thanksgiving. While I’m sure there are those who are “parroting” things, as will be true at any Mass, I find a much higher percentage truly engaged than I ever did at the TLM, though I’m sure that has changed to some extent now at the TLM. And yes, I know that engagement can be silent but I think that the more active external participation draws more people into engagement as it is harder to just go off in one’s own private space. Is it joyful and reverent in all parishes? Maybe not, but it sure has been in most of the many places where I have attended. I’m not at all knocking silent engagement for those who are more drawn to that but I think it is easier for most of us to get drawn in when all around us are also drawn in.

I’ve seen the “side by side” comparisons and your comments about reductions in the number of genuflections, bows, etc. To me, there is plenty of reverence shown in the Pauline Mass when it is done to the rubrics. Numbers of times is totally irrelevant to me; the reverence with which they are done, as far as I’m concerned, is much more important and I’ve seen the same look of awe in the eyes of the priests that I feel myself.

Clearly your experiences were different, just as my experiences of the TLM were very different from yours. But it still comes down to reverence being a state of mind that cannot be dictated by the form of the liturgy but which comes from interior disposition. Reverent and joyful priests and bishops show that by example and draw us in with them.

I don’t know if I gave you the answer you’re looking for but it is at least part of why I can be so happy where I am. If you feel half as inspired as I do coming from your Mass you can feel blessed indeed. 🙂
 
Unless you place the Christian denominations on the same level as Catholicism this argument is a red herring.
I think the point is that the same social pressures and sins that affected all Americans also affected Catholics. Vatican II and the changes that occured did not occur in a vacuum. There were other significant events in the sixties and seventies, you know.
 
I’ve seen the “side by side” comparisons and your comments about reductions in the number of genuflections, bows, etc. To me, there is plenty of reverence shown in the Pauline Mass when it is done to the rubrics. Numbers of times is totally irrelevant to me; the reverence with which they are done, as far as I’m concerned, is much more important and I’ve seen the same look of awe in the eyes of the priests that I feel myself.

Clearly your experiences were different, just as my experiences of the TLM were very different from yours. But it still comes down to reverence being a state of mind that cannot be dictated by the form of the liturgy but which comes from interior disposition. Reverent and joyful priests and bishops show that by example and draw us in with them.

I don’t know if I gave you the answer you’re looking for but it is at least part of why I can be so happy where I am. If you feel half as inspired as I do coming from your Mass you can feel blessed indeed. 🙂
You have basically listed the externals that draw you to the Novus Ordo, the language, the congregation praying aloud together, etc. I assumed that you would list the prayers that draw you…for aside from the consecration…the Mass is a sum total of it’s prayers. You didn’t mention the prayers that you find so glorious, so I won’t either. I’ll just share with you some simple instructions re the externals in the TLM:This was distributed when our first Latin Masses were allowed:

What the people need to know:

The first thing people need to know about the Tridentine Mass is that it’s emphasis is silent prayer and quiet adoration & reflection. This means that from **the moment you walk into the church, you change all your actions from social to prayerful. **

Movements should be reverent and slow. Absolutely no talking, not even a “Hi!” Treat the Mass is if you were at the foot of the Crucifixion of Christ, silently watching Him offer Himself as a sacrifice for your sins, because that is what the Mass is, even the Novus Ordo Mass. Treat the Tabernacle is if you were being presented face to face with the Triune God in Heaven for the first time, because that is who is in that Tabernacle. Christ said to Saint Gertrude: “One idle word in church is worth a hundred years in Purgatory.” Of course, “idle” means unnecessary but what words are necessary?
  1. Dress as if you have died and were about to see God face to face in Heaven.
  2. Men should never go to Mass in shorts or short sleeve shirts.
  3. Women should dress modestly and feminine (not like men)
  4. Women should use veils as is traditional but not mandatory. See “Woman, God’s Last Creation” for the reason.
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  1. As for standing or kneeling during Mass, just follow the other people or the altar-boys.
  2. Music should be sung like a whisper. The choir is taught to sing to God and not to the people. Liturgical music is not meant for entertainment. Unless the church is very large, even speakers are not used because the music should sound like Heavenly background to prayer and not something that beats up the ears and brain, preventing prayer. If there is a choir there is no reason to sing along with them. They should be well trained and any singing along should be done very quietly so as not to interrupt the trained singers.
7.** Follow along with the mass in the Missal that is placed in the pews (English on one side and Latin on the other).** If the church has not purchased the missals yet or cannot afford them, you can buy them on the internet. See below!
  1. After reading the words of the Tridentine (see below) you will see that most of the Mass is the priest praying to God and only when he turns and faces the people does he speak to the people. This is the high priest (Christ) praying to the Father for us. It is Christ offering His sacrifice for us, and we are just there watching and thanking God.
  2. Remember that people are there to pray, so do not fidget with your rosary or make sounds or movements that would distract others from prayer. Just use common Church etiquette, which means making others comfortable around you.
  3. When going to communion stay in line and go to the next space at the altar rail and kneel down and wait for the priest to come to you. If there is a communion cloth over the altar rail, but your hands under it. The priest will say, “May the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto everlasting life.” You will receive communion on the tongue, bow your head a moment and get up and go back to your pew. Remain kneeling until the priest starts the final prayers of the Mass.
  4. After Mass leave the church without talking because a great many people will remain inside praying and you do not want to interrupt God. After some distance from the front door, it is time to socialize and share your faith with others. It would be good if the church has a dinning hall with coffee and donuts because Catholics should get to know each other but not in church. In the past everything was done at the church and boys and girls met there, husbands and wives met for the first time at church. Friends were made there. Faith was shared and taught at the church. **Socialization builds a parish but prayer builds faith. **
Those are the externals that draw me to the Latin Mass. Later, I’ll share the theology & the prayers that do the same.
 
N.C. John,

**We wrote, in part: ** * ** Jerry Parker ** Those who never have known the glories of the 1962 Missale Romanum are not in much of a position to pontificate on the superiority of the Novus Ordo. For those who did know the old liturgy at its fullest, the 40th anniversary of the N.O. is not an occasion for celebration, but for regret for so much that was precious that has been washed away, cast aside, wasted.

N.C. John: You take much upon yourself in thinking you can in any way speak for any significant segment of those of us who grew up pre-Vatican II. I daresay that that the overwhelming majority would fully and completely disagree with you on this. When our diocese offered availability of the TLM many years back it had a couple hundred people show up in the beginning, mostly younger people and NOT those who had grown up with it. Within 6 months it was down to a small handful attending at all and it died a quiet death until the Pope mandated the availability again.*​

I did experience the 1962 and 1965 Masses at their best and at their most mediocre. I remember priests who dashed through the Mass as quickly as possible, saying it with an atrocious American accent that was utterly ugly in effect. However, one hears the Novus Ordo (N.O.) said that way in the vernacular, with many terrible truncations that should not be permitted. (Nobody that I recall ever cut the text of the Latin Mass.) The N.O. is so short that to cut it really does awful damage, not to its validity, but to what liturgical integrity remains in the N.O. As for what the greater part of Catholics thought of the contrast between the 1962 and N.O. Masses, a lot just drifted away in disgust or indifference when the N.O. became madatory; I know that I was not the only one thus disturbed by the liturgical rot that set in after 1965 and then, much worse, after 1970. There are some good explanations regarding all of this to account for the steep drop in Mass attendance by Catholics after those years.

Alas, the implementation of congregational participation in the Latin Mass did not progress evenly in the U.S.; many parishes continued to have purely priest-acolyte dialogues of the liturgy rather than the priest-congregation (with acolyte) participation that was encouraged from the end of the 19th century onwards. I was lucky at St. Gregory’s Catholic Church in Long Beach to sing the Mass with full and vigourous involvement of priest (and others at the altar), congregation, and choir. The Latin Mass said thus, as Rome wished it to be, was incredibly beautiful and very uplifting. The N.O. offers nothing over the Latin Mass rightly celebrated for congregational participation and edification.

There is a limit to what can be done to make the N.O. respond to higher spiritual aspirations. The N.O. broke dreadfully with the very long and uninterrupted tradition of the Catholic Church’s worship. That alone is a worrisome thing; it is no wonder that so many priests, sensing this, butcher the N.O. without qualms. The tradition is in danger of being lost altogether if this keeps up. Fortunately, Benedict XVI is attempting to improve the vernacular N.O. and to restore the 1962 Missale Romanum to wider practice, both good things. Papal authority, after so many decades of attrition under Paul VI and John Paul II may vitiate the Papacy’s ability to get the American, Canadian, and other bishops to implement the improvements of the N.O. I hope that such is not the case!

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
Ok, lets just take the Novus Ordo, put it in a wagon, roll it down and hill, and blow it up.

Dats…Dat
 
Yosupman,

**You wrote: ** *OK, let’s just take the Novus Ordo, put it in a wagon, roll it down and hill, and blow it up. Dat’s – dat! *​

Oh, what a lovely idea 👍, to those of us who dislike the Novus Ordo! Such an action would roll back ugly decades of liturgical decline that the N.O. has occasioned!

To be fair, though, there should remain N.O. celebrations of the liturgy, at least as a transition measure, for those who genuinely prefer it (or who, at any rate, think that they do until they discover or encounter anew the grand and soul-stirring richness of the Traditional Latin Mass (of the 1962 Missale Romanum). The N.O. could be of use in use in hospitals, on battle fields, and elsewhere when a shorter celebration of the liturgy under emergency and/or stressful circumstances is essential. (The Anglicans have provision, implemented only then, for just such stripped-down eucharist in like situations in their traditional Book of Common Prayer and in its Armed Forces and chaplaincy adaptations for special use.) Something like the N.O. does not deserve the central place in Christ’s Holy Catholic Church that it has held for so wearisomely long in the “liturgical Babylonian Captivity” of Catholic worship.

Jerry Parker
 
Ok, lets just take the Novus Ordo, put it in a wagon, roll it down and hill, and blow it up.

Dats…Dat
What a sacraligious thing to suggest for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!

The TLM has never been treated with such disdain and hatred that has been directed at the Mass of the Catholic Church. If you took your sentence and reversed it, “take the TLM, put it in a wagon, roll it down and hill, and blow it up”, would you not conside it to be a rather uncharitable response?
 
Y
To be fair, though, there should remain N.O. celebrations of the liturgy, at least as a transition measure, for those who genuinely prefer it (or who, at any rate, think that they do until they discover or encounter anew the grand and soul-stirring richness of the Traditional Latin Mass (of the 1962 Missale Romanum). …Something like the N.O. does not deserve the central place in Christ’s Holy Catholic Church that it has held for so wearisomely long in the “liturgical Babylonian Captivity” of Catholic worship.

Jerry Parker
Jerry, being Catholic means that we listen to what our Mother Church teaches us. We do not become the teacher for Her. Our Holy Father has stated that there is no question of going back. At least under our current Pope, this will not happen. If the Holy Spirit has led the Church this way, should we not listen? Should we not always consider the possibility that we could be wrong, or at least have something to learn?
 
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