Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ockham
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What a sacraligious thing to suggest for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!

**The TLM has never been treated with such disdain and hatred that has been directed at the Mass of the Catholic Church. If you took your sentence and reversed it, “take the TLM, put it in a wagon, roll it down **and hill, and blow it up”, would you not conside it to be a rather uncharitable response?
You’ve got to be kidding. Were you around in 1969??The TLM was thrown away like a piece of trash & those who hated to see it go were called disobedient, reactionary
troublesome**…by the clergy**, not someone on a message board.
 
You’ve got to be kidding. Were you around in 1969??The TLM was thrown away like a piece of trash & those who hated to see it go were called disobedient, reactionary
troublesome**…by the clergy**, not someone on a message board.
That’s odd. I don’t remember that happening here. Was it a bishop /archbishop or just a local priest?

Of course, it could have been a hasty reaction to someone saying that they would never accept the OF.
 
You’ve got to be kidding. Were you around in 1969??The TLM was thrown away like a piece of trash & those who hated to see it go were called disobedient, reactionary
troublesome**…by the clergy**, not someone on a message board.
I was around in 1969. In those days, in my “Catholic world”, no one questioned the wisdom of Mother Church. We believed that the Holy Spirit could not guide her Church into error.

So, you must have lived in a different “Catholic world” than I.

Thinking back, I never, ever heard any thing derogative about the TLM. And certainly, never heard anyone question the wisdom of the Church.

If people were called disobedient, etc., for protesting the changes, I never heard it from individuals and, certainly not from the pulpit.
 
P. Newton,

**You wrote: ** *Jerry, being Catholic means that we listen to what our Mother Church teaches us. We do not become the teacher for Her. Our Holy Father has stated that there is no question of going back. At least under our current Pope, this will not happen. If the Holy Spirit has led the Church this way, should we not listen? Should we not always consider the possibility that we could be wrong, or at least have something to learn? *​

Two points to make about your reaction to my earlier posting. “Going back” would be something to enable the Church to go forward again, instead of being stuck and stalled, as it has been by the Novus Ordo. Besides, I did not urge the abolition of the N.O., only that it have a secondary place in the Church’s worship.

The Church moves along not by the institution acting in some kind of vacuum, apart from the laity, theologians, and others, but as consensus, of a theologically orthodox kind (a “common mind in Christ”) develops from the give and take of life and discussion within the Church. (Consider, for example, how the promulgation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception came to pass, from the groundswell movement of popular piety upwards and on to the urge of the Papacy to “pontificate”, as it were (to use the word in a non-derogatory sense) infallibly on the doctrine.

Questioning the status quo, in this case the N.O., therefore, is not an act of rebellion against the Church.

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
The Eastern Liturgies are older than the TLM. and please don’t even think about putting the NO Mass in the same league as the Eastern Liturgies. Only the TLM can compare in beauty and rubrics. Many Eastern Orthodox Christians have already commented on the NO Mass, and they were not to positive. If you ask converts to the Orthodox faith from Roman Catholicism you will find that most converted do to the liturgical changes made to the Mass after Vatican 2.
I attend the OF Mass and the Divine Liturgy EVERY Sunday.

The OF is MUCH closer to the DL. The extraordinary Mass is fine for those who prefer it (some .4% of all who attend Mass) but it’s laughable to say is more beautiful than the OF.
 
B. Kovacs,

**You had written: ** The Eastern Liturgies are older than the T.L.M. [Traditional Latin Mass]. and please don’t even think about putting the N.O. Novus Ordo] Mass in the same league as the Eastern Liturgies. Only the T.L.M. can compare in beauty and rubrics. Many Eastern Orthodox Christians have already commented on the N.O. Mass, and they were not too positive. If you ask converts to the Orthodox faith from Roman Catholicism [regarding what motivates them to change] you will find that most converted do to the liturgical changes made to the Mass after Vatican 2.

I quote the same words as Hotchkiss did. Yes, the Byzantine Liturgy (of the Orthodox Church and of the Eastern Catholic rite) is far more beautiful and exalted than the N.O. Mass. As to antiquity, the T.L.M. goes back to quite remote antiquity, as does the Byzantine Liturgy, and both simply outclass the upstart N.O., the only positive aspect of which is the incorporation into a Western Catholic liturgy of the epiclesis, which the T.L.M. lacks, for better or worse, and which even the traditional Book of Common Prayer liturgy of Anglicanism had restored at the time of the Reformation, long before the N.O. incorporated it. However, the presence of the epiclesis by itself does make the N.O. a desirable alternative to the T.L.M. for many Catholics.

I can understand why so many Catholics move from Rome to Constantinople (unless they turn to Eastern Catholicism); advocates of the N.O. simply seem to be insensible or just downright uncaring as to how much the N.O. grates on Catholics who hold Tradition and antiquity in high esteem, which rules out the N.O. for them. I do not have the option, really, of anything but the Western Rite, here only available in N.O. parishes, but I would scamper as fast as possible to the Eastern alternative if there were a viable alternative here! Hotchkiss can have his N.O.; it just is not (and never will be) for every Catholic if he had another option! My turn to Roman Catholicism comes IN SPITE OF the bane that N.O. is to Catholic worship.

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
You’ve got to be kidding. Were you around in 1969??The TLM was thrown away like a piece of trash & those who hated to see it go were called disobedient, reactionary
troublesome**…by the clergy**, not someone on a message board.
In all fairness, the TLM was barely recognizeable and was basically “trashed” a couple of years before 1969. The Novus Ordo did not replace it per se, but it was needed to settle down, if you will, all those who kept wanted to put in their own two cents worth into the liturgical picture. Let’s be thankful the 1962 Missal was never abolished.
 
I was around in 1969. In those days, in my “Catholic world”, no one questioned the wisdom of Mother Church.
You’re kidding, right? With the financial and sex scandals brewing and a serious protest against Humanae Vitae, many questioned the “wisdom” the of the Church. Or at least started questioning it.
 
You’re kidding, right? With the financial and sex scandals brewing and a serious protest against Humanae Vitae, many questioned the “wisdom” the of the Church. Or at least started questioning it.
I was speaking of the way the Church celebrated Mass.

I don’t think many knew of the financial and sex scandals in 1969.

So are you saying that Humanae Vitae was a bad thing and we should question the “wisdom” of the Church?
 
You’re kidding, right? With the financial and sex scandals brewing and a serious protest against Humanae Vitae, many questioned the “wisdom” the of the Church. Or at least started questioning it.
Yes, the nuns had always taught me to question aloud rather than fuming inside ;). In answer to one poster, I was excited to celebrate the “New” Mass.I was in my early 20’s during it’s first appearance. The Church had always given us a beautiful liturgy, so it never occured to me that the Novus Ordo would be anything less. I tried for 10 years to love it, for the next 30 years I endured. Many didn’t.

It was my parent’s generation that was pushed aside & called ‘reactionary’, out of step, disobedient by the parish priests. They were none of the above & I resent anyone who claims that their generation of Catholics were dissident complainers. What they were was old & bewildered. Everything they knew…the Ancient Mass (which my Father could pray in Latin), the novenas, the Litanies, devotions to their patron saints…just disappeared.

Unless one was an adult when this happened & watched their parents disenfranchised (as Brotherholf describes it), I’d appreciate it if they kept their opinions about the pre-vatican II Catholics to them selves. If one was part of the abrupt rupture of the whole Church in the 60’s…the nuns leaving their orders, the beautiful Churches gutted, their confessionals gone, at the time our Communion rails & kneelers went out on the first flatbed truck…my Father was so worried about how my Mom was going to kneel on the floor…her arthritis was so bad. Little did they realize that there would be no more kneeling.
 
That’s odd. I don’t remember that happening here. Was it a bishop /archbishop or just a local priest?

Of course, it could have been a hasty reaction to someone saying that they would never accept the OF.
How old were you when the Novus Ordo was “manufactured” by Annibale Bugnini. Better yet, how old were your parents. I’d almost wager that you really haven’t a clue about the atmosphere in the parishes & in the Catholic homes during that period.
 
Cradle Catholic,

**You wrote: ** *I [initially] was excited to celebrate the “New” Mass. I was in my early 20’s during its first appearance. The Church had always given us a beautiful liturgy, so it never occured to me that the Novus Ordo would be anything less. I tried for 10 years to love it, for the next 30 years I endured. Many didn’t.

It was my parent’s generation that was pushed aside & called ‘reactionary’, out of step, disobedient by the parish priests. They were none of the above & I resent anyone who claims that their generation of Catholics were dissident complainers. What they were was old & bewildered. Everything they knew – the Ancient Mass (which my Father could pray in Latin), the novenas, the Litanies, devotions to their patron saints – just disappeared.

Unless one was an adult when this happened & watched their parents disenfranchised (as Brotherholf describes it), I’d appreciate it if they kept their opinions about the pre-vatican II Catholics to them selves. If one was part of the abrupt rupture of the whole Church in the [19]60’s – the nuns leaving their orders, the beautiful Churches gutted, their confessionals gone, at the time our Communion rails & kneelers went out on the first flatbed truck. My Father was so worried about how my Mom was going to kneel on the floor – her arthritis was so bad. Little did they realize that there would be no more kneeling. *​

Wow! 👍 How so much of that parallels my own memories of the purported “liturgical renewal” (i.e. deconstruction) of the Holy Liturgy of the Mass during that dreadful period! At least, like you, I am old enough to remember things when they had been so much better (even though I was not a “cradle Catholic”), when the T.L.M. prevailed! I, too, was in my late teens and early- to mid-twenties when first the 1965 Missale Romanum’s (usually butchered almost beyond recognition) then the 1970’s Novus Ordo’s vernacular liturgies were introduced :eek: (to displace the real Vatican II liturgy, the 1962 Missale Romanum) or, rather, rammed down lay Catholics’ throats. Alas, I did not persevere through the hated chaos of all that. I fled all of that ugliness, resorting to Anglicanism and to Lutheranism, hoping vainly to find something saner, more secure.

I, too, chafe at younger Catholics parrotting the biassed and uncharitable opinions and judgments of trendoid clergy, then and now, who implemented and enforced, variously, all that chaos and abuse! I do not mind kneeling, despite my severe arthrosis now much later in life; I just do it in a one-better-knee-on-the-kneeler/buttocks-on-the-pew’s-edge squat, which still is better than standing during prayers (whenever the N.O.'s strange and inconsistent rubrics permit that)!

Now I have been ready for quite some time to return to full communion with the Church, but the Sacrament of Confession now (having been jettisoned for something else or for nothing) is so seldom available readily, at least hereabouts, that it is taking me months and months, needlessly, to find an opportunity to confess and then, at last, again to receive the Holy Communion. That’s the only reason that I still, frustrated, am a Lutheran as listed on my C.A. Fora submissions! Will I die before I can make a sacramental confession and return to the Church? Perhaps—. The mildly liberal priests do not care much or feel much of any urgency about all this.

However, the Mass is still the Holy Mass, despite what the N.O.'s depravations have wreaked on it!

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
Yes, the nuns had always taught me to question aloud rather than fuming inside ;). In answer to one poster, I was excited to celebrate the “New” Mass.I was in my early 20’s during it’s first appearance. The Church had always given us a beautiful liturgy, so it never occured to me that the Novus Ordo would be anything less. I tried for 10 years to love it, for the next 30 years I endured. Many didn’t.

It was my parent’s generation that was pushed aside & called ‘reactionary’, out of step, disobedient by the parish priests. They were none of the above & I resent anyone who claims that their generation of Catholics were dissident complainers. What they were was old & bewildered. Everything they knew…the Ancient Mass (which my Father could pray in Latin), the novenas, the Litanies, devotions to their patron saints…just disappeared.

Unless one was an adult when this happened & watched their parents disenfranchised (as Brotherholf describes it), I’d appreciate it if they kept their opinions about the pre-vatican II Catholics to them selves. If one was part of the abrupt rupture of the whole Church in the 60’s…the nuns leaving their orders, the beautiful Churches gutted, their confessionals gone, at the time our Communion rails & kneelers went out on the first flatbed truck…my Father was so worried about how my Mom was going to kneel on the floor…her arthritis was so bad. Little did they realize that there would be no more kneeling.
It must be geographical. My mother was deceased by that time and my dad was an alcoholic and did not attend Mass too frequently.(He and our Pastor were drinking buddies).

But I had several aunts and uncles of that generation and if they were “disenfranhised”, they didn’t speak of it. Every one continued as faithful Catholics until their deaths.

Now, my parish church stands exactly the way it did before VII. The only concession made was the center altar gate was removed and placed in front of the main altar. It is right in front of the beautiful Tabernacle. The priest now reaches over it to open the tabernacle. All the confessionals are still there, as well as all the statues and both side altars. We have a beautiful abuse-free Mass.

At the 7am Sunday Mass, I doubt there are 10 people under 65 out of 200. And if asked, I really doubt that many would say they felt “disenfranchised”, back in 1969.

It is very sad that your parish went through that, but it is certainly not the norm.
 
You’ve got to be kidding. Were you around in 1969??The TLM was thrown away like a piece of trash & those who hated to see it go were called disobedient, reactionary
troublesome**…by the clergy**, not someone on a message board.
And how do you feel about that? Jesus told us to do unto others as we would have others do unto you. He did not tell us to do unto other as others have done to us.
 
Questioning the status quo, in this case the N.O., therefore, is not an act of rebellion against the Church.

Pax, Jerry Parker
No, it is not. However, we should always question our authorities with enough humility to recognize that we might be the one in the wrong. We should also use charity if we oppose the Church on something.
 
Unless one was an adult when this happened & watched their parents disenfranchised (as Brotherholf describes it), I’d appreciate it if they kept their opinions about the pre-vatican II Catholics to them selves.
LOL! You have been around here long enough to know that won’t happen. We never let ignorance stand in the way of an opinion. Personally, I value the (name removed by moderator)ut and insight you and brotherhrolf have given, even if it is anecdotal.
 
One thing that gives me great joy is that the new Sacramentary/Missal in English will provide English settings for all Gregorian chants for the liturgical year in modern music notation. I have read the introductory material, which is already available. Theses English Gregorian chant settings seem to be done very well.

I am working on my own English Gregorian chant Compline service for use at our Catholic Worker house–more on that chant project, which is just starting, can be found at fresnocatholicworker.wordpress.com
 
Pnewton,

Hey, I was just joking a while about about rolling the Novus Ordo down a hill and blowing it up. Actually that was a comment by Dad’s old boss told him about his department. This guy was an actual lunatic.

I’m not serious about blowing up the novus ordo.

I do have to tell you though, the church (the Hirearchy) has not done it’s job in the last 40 years. The norm has been dissent and really bad liturgy. God’s judgement will be very severe.

So it’s been a real trial for those that want to be faithful.
 
Yosupman,

**You wrote: ** *Hey, I was just joking a while about about rolling the Novus Ordo down a hill and blowing it up. I’not serious about blowing up the Novus Ordo.

I do have to tell you though, the Church (the Hirearchy) has not done it’s job in the last 40 years. The norm has been dissent and really bad liturgy. God’s judgment will be very severe. So it’s been a real trial for those that want to be faithful. *​

Yes, it is difficult and “a real trial for those [who] want to be faithful” as you put it.

Myself, I just want to return to the Church and somehow to endure, despite its aesthetic numbness and dreary ordinariness, the liturgy, here exclusively the pared-down Novus Ordo (N.O.) in some form, in French or in English. However, since the sole English parish has abandoned Confession in any sort or way, having no regular provisions (or even accessible special ones) for private Confession and, very worrisomely, has cut out the corporate confession of sins from the N.O. liturgy, whether this is the priests’ decision, to “save time” (a miserable excuse!!) or something the liberal bishop here encourages. I know of one French parish, at least, where the corporate confession and priestly absolution are said. This means, for those who worship in English, that the people have no resort to penitence in the context of the Church! For me it means, much worse, that I cannot make the confession that is necessary to be reconciled to the Church. What a mess! I may have to go hundreds of miles away, to a confessional booth somewhere in Montréal or wherever, before I can make that confession. This means, too, that I cannot receive the Holy Communion. It’s discouraging----.

The Vatican should come out and forbid such things, including any deviation soever from the sanctioned text of its liturgies, whether N.O. or the Traditional Latin Mass of 1962. These kinds of depravations by a decadent clergy should not be the kind of thing that Rome tolerates.

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
After deeply studying the changes in the Mass, I can say with conviction that the Novus Ordo is, quite simply, a Protestant mess.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top