"Hard-Core Catholicism bursting out all over the place"

[mike182d]

## And some of them put Catholics to shame - one does not have to be a theist or a Christian to be a decent human being.

How many atheist soup kitchens are there? Or atheist hospitals? Or atheist thrift stores?

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

There are moral atheists whether you accept the fact or not. Read what they write.

My point is that it does not matter what they write. They are takin an untenable position. If they are an atheist, they make the claim that there is no God. If they are moral, they make the claim that they have moral values. God is the source of moral values (right and wrong). What is the source of an atheist’s moral values? What makes this source absolute and what would keep an atheist from modifying his/her moral values as the situation fit?

Morals come from God. They come from no other source.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maranatha:

I believe a Canonical Law expert could answer this better but I understand that if you are baptized Catholic, then you are Catholic. This puts a potential gulf between what a Catholic should do (submit to the authority of the Magisterium) and what a Catholic may do.

Does Trinitarian Baptism = Catholic Baptism ? I wasn’t rebaptised, even conditionally; my Anglican baptism was reckoned as valid (though my confirmation wasn’t )​

Most Christians receive Trinitarian Baptism in childhood - it doesn’t mean they aren’t brought up as Christians of a different stripe from the left-footed variety

I read somewhere that all who receive Trinitarian Baptism, even outside the visible communion of the CC, count as Catholic until they decide to choose something doctrinally incompatible with Catholicism - not that they have to be conscious that being a practising Anglican or Presbyterian or whatever is incompatible with being RC; the CC does not even have to be adverted to by them. ##

 

[Brad]

fix:

Let me rephrase then, how does one define a faithful Catholic.

I see they conveniently avoid the question. When there can be moral atheists, a faithful Catholic doesn’t have any real definition. It’s just another denomination of thinking.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

mike182d:

How many atheist soup kitchens are there? Or atheist hospitals? Or atheist thrift stores?

AFAIK, atheists don’t go in for competitive charity - they just get on with being charitable, even if that’s not how they conceptualise what they are doing ​

What is the good in a charity which puffs itself up and proclaims how marvellous it is anyway ? The real thing is far too busy thinking of others to think of itself. ##

 

[Brad]

## AFAIK, atheists don’t go in for competitive charity - they just get on with being charitable, even if that’s not how they conceptualise what they are doing

What is the good in a charity which puffs itself up and proclaims how marvellous it is anyway ? The real thing is far too busy thinking of others to think of itself. ##

So where does an atheist learn to be charitable and humble?

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

Morals come from God. They come from no other source.

That’s one opinion. Buddhists, among others, would disagree.

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

So where does an atheist learn to be charitable and humble?

From his mother and father, probably.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Brad:

My point is that it does not matter what they write. They are takin an untenable position. If they are an atheist, they make the claim that there is no God. If they are moral, they make the claim that they have moral values. God is the source of moral values (right and wrong). What is the source of an atheist’s moral values? What makes this source absolute and what would keep an atheist from modifying his/her moral values as the situation fit?

Morals come from God. They come from no other source.

And babyfood comes from supermarkets - does a toddler’s ignorance of Walmart or Marks & Spencer mean that Walmart, or Marks & Spencer, does not exist ? ​

So neither are atheists less moral for not knowing that God does not exist. And those who explicitly deny God’s existence, may be denying the existence, not of God, but of a shabby, mean, and cruel fetish which men have mistaken for God, and have presented as God; they may actually be far closer to Christ than many of us are, who profess to belong to Him. Denying that some sectarian or petty fetish-idea of God, is God, is not denial of the Real, Living, God; it may be evidence of a greater faith than that of some Christians. There are false gods and false Christs & idols in plenty in the hearts and books and sermons & politics of Christians - they ought to be denied & rejected.

And before someone quotes Romans 1 - St.Paul did not have 1900 years of our sins and scandals & foolishnesses & ignorances to take notice of: these, are one reason for much of the atheism in the world today. Blaming the atheist for all his atheism is too convenient by half. ##

 

[Richardols]

mike182d:

How many atheist soup kitchens are there? Or atheist hospitals? Or atheist thrift stores?

You may not have noticed, but atheists don’t organize themselves the same way that religious groups tend to.

There are, BTW, totally non-sectarian soup kitchens, free clinics, and thrift shops. But, right, no hospitals.

 

[mike182d]

## AFAIK, atheists don’t go in for competitive charity - they just get on with being charitable, even if that’s not how they conceptualise what they are doing

What is the good in a charity which puffs itself up and proclaims how marvellous it is anyway ? The real thing is far too busy thinking of others to think of itself. ##

What is “competitive” about a soup kitchen?

My point was that atheists are moral in so far as it suits them, makes them feel good. You will not find many atheists giving up their lives to establish entire ministries devoted towards being charitable.

I think it does a great disservice to the sincerity of the mission of St. Vincent de Pauls to claim their existence as an organized ministry is a product of mere “competition.”

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

That’s one opinion. Buddhists, among others, would disagree.

This is liberalism Richardols. You are practicing it right now. This is classic DM (denominational mentality). If you are going to defend the Buddhist position (whereas I would say they are incorrect), then you have to justify their argument for source of morals. Can you do that?

 

[mike182d]

Richardols:

You may not have noticed, but atheists don’t organize themselves the same way that religious groups tend to.

There are, BTW, totally non-sectarian soup kitchens, free clinics, and thrift shops. But, right, no hospitals.

Of course, and there are men who don’t like sports. Point being, what is the ratio between religiously-inspired charitable organizations and atheist organizations? Keep in mind we’re talking about atheist organizations not purely secular or agnostic institutions - there is a big difference.

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

From his mother and father, probably.

And where did his mother and father learn this?

 

[mike182d]

Richardols:

That’s one opinion. Buddhists, among others, would disagree.

Would not Hitler disagree that killing Jews was wrong?

Just because one disagrees doesn’t mean they’re correct in disagreeing.

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

If you are going to defend the Buddhist position (whereas I would say they are incorrect), then you have to justify their argument for source of morals. Can you do that?

You made an absolute statement, “Morals come from God. They come from no other source.” I said that others would disagree that morals come only from a diety. What’s your problem?

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

And where did his mother and father learn this?

The Atheist’s Catechism.

 

[Richardols]

mike182d:

Point being, what is the ratio between religiously-inspired charitable organizations and atheist organizations?

Who knows? Do atheists organize themselves the same way the religions organize themselves? What are a few of these organizations?

 

[Brad]

## And babyfood comes from supermarkets - does a toddler’s ignorance of Walmart or Marks & Spencer mean that Walmart, or Marks & Spencer, does not exist ?

Not sure of your point here. God exists irregardless of whether people believe in Him or not.

##
So neither are atheists less moral for not knowing that God does not exist. And those who explicitly deny God’s existence, may be denying the existence, not of God, but of a shabby, mean, and cruel fetish which men have mistaken for God, and have presented as God; they may actually be far closer to Christ than many of us are, who profess to belong to Him. Denying that some sectarian or petty fetish-idea of God, is God, is not denial of the Real, Living, God; it may be evidence of a greater faith than that of some Christians. There are false gods and false Christs & idols in plenty in the hearts and books and sermons & politics of Christians - they ought to be denied & rejected.

I agree that some atheists can act in a way that is less sinful that some Christians. However, the idea these actions are based on an absolute moral values system that is equal or superior to Christianity is not a defendable concept. Isolated examples show nothing. One needs only to scan the 20th century to find countless examples of grave and wicked behavior increasing as the idea of God was diminished. In fact, where the most death occurred, the idea of God had to be first wiped away and those that preached the Gospel or the OT were the biggest enemies of the godless.

An atheist’s behavior may be more moral in comparison to another Christian. My point is that an atheist can not claim to be an atheist on one hand and claim to be moral on the other. Without a source of moral values, they can make no claim to their behavior being more moral than someone else’s.
Gottle of Geer:

And before someone quotes Romans 1 - St.Paul did not have 1900 years of our sins and scandals & foolishnesses & ignorances to take notice of: these, are one reason for much of the atheism in the world today. Blaming the atheist for all his atheism is too convenient by half. ##

The atheist has full responsiblity for rejecting God outright. Christians have full responsibility for living out the Christian life as Jesus taught. Neither group is forced to do either.

 

[mike182d]

Richardols:

Who knows? Do atheists organize themselves the same way the religions organize themselves? What are a few of these organizations?

I don’t know. I’m asking you. If atheism is not inherently amoral in its belief structure, where are these charitable contributions to mankind?

You shall know a tree by its fruit…