Hard truths on abortion, sex, and all that

[Julia_Mae]

take planned parenthood’s style of sex ed OUT OF SCHOOLS and you would see a decrease in promiscuity. If teens aren’t taught that its okay to have sex with whomever, whenever and the earlier the better…

This is just terribly inaccurate and a slur on a lot of good people doing good work with teens in schools:

What Is Medically Accurate Sex Education?
Sometimes, people mistakenly believe that “sex ed” refers only to sexual behavior (e.g., sexual intercourse) and not the full array of topics that comprise sexuality. These include information and concerns about abstinence, body image, contraception, gender, human growth and development, human reproduction, pregnancy, relationships, safer sex (prevention of sexually transmitted infections), sexual attitudes and values, sexual anatomy and physiology, sexual behavior, sexual health, sexual orientation, and sexual pleasure.

Comprehensive, medically accurate sexuality education covers the wide array of topics that affect sexuality and sexual health. It is grounded in evidence-based, peer-reviewed science. Its goal is to promote health and well-being in a way that is developmentally appropriate. It includes information and communication skills building as well as values exploration. Ideally, sex ed in school is an integrated education process that builds upon itself year after year, is initiated in kindergarten, and is provided through grade 12.

plannedparenthood.org/resources/implementing-sex-education-23516.htm

I saw a thank you letter from a Down’s Syndrome teen who was completely in the dark about his body and what was going on with him. His experience with PP sex ed in his school was that he knows what’s happening and can control what he does.

Another was from another boy who didn’t know you could get STD from oral sex, which is what a lot of teens in “abstinence only” programs turn to because they think it’s safe.

PP in schools provides animatronic babies so kids understand the responsibility of having a child young, and give them straight answers to question. What they don’t do is ever say, “Come on down and get your free pills so you can have a big sex club after school!”

There is a lot of disgusting and false information floating around about Planned Parenthood which is a non-profit doing charitable work we may not agree with in terms of providing birth control, or even abortions, but they are not some evil business empire where everyone is getting rich training children to be sex machines and reaping profits form abortions with money they somehow steal from the taxpayers.

This is a huge lie people are sold to get them to write a check to a “Pro-life” website.

If we are going to be for anything, we have to be for truth, which includes facts, not … not this.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The problem is that there are many health publications that have found that comparing the sex issues from abstinence-only methods vs. “comprehensive” sex education have found that over follow-up period longer than a year, the students who went through abstinence-only classes actually have as much premarital intercourse as those in control groups or who go through “comprehensive” sex ed.

There’s a pretty good overview of the information with some links here: advocatesforyouth.org/publications/623?task=view

I see abstinence-only classes as a band-aid on a hemorrhaging wound. That “wound” is based on the cultural changes that concern me: that which says that sex is a cheap commodity that boyfriends and girlfriends need to have prior to committing themselves to one another.

It’s sexualizing children for profit, IMO, and a great deal of it comes through the media fueled by advertising dollars. It’s like we are a whole culture sexually abusing our children.

…the plural of “story” isn’t “data.”

I think we should make this into a bumper sticker. :clapping:

 

[edwest2]

Did you mean to say that the Supreme Court would be exceptionally unlikely to overtuen Roe v Wade?

If I understood your post, you were laying out the practical reasons why some consider abortion should be available. I am not familiar with the legal issues, but I suppose those arguments might enter into defending a woman’s right to privacy.

Many conservatives in the US think that it simply is a matter of electing the right president who will appoint the right Supreme Court justices. I don’t think it is that simple.

You’ll have to provide some evidence. The truth about abortion was the people were lied to, plain and simple.

There are those here who only think mathematically, Catholics rely on God. And Catholics know how corrupt the current leadership is in this country. They need a history lesson. They need the Truth.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Julia_Mae]

You’ll have to provide some evidence. The truth about abortion was the people were lied to, plain and simple.

There are those here who only think mathematically, Catholics rely on God. And Catholics know how corrupt the current leadership is in this country. They need a history lesson. They need the Truth.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

Peace,
Ed

Those of us who were young at the time know we were lied to. Do you know you were lied to about late term abortion when they tried to outlaw it? Anyway, here’s a paragraph from your link:

We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 - 250 annually. The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.

“In fact, of course?” LOL! Once a liar, always a liar…

The Pill is the most commonly used form of birth control by US women. huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/birth-control-study-over-2-in-5-women-dont-use-contraception_n_1904802.html

 

[JimG]

In The Death of the West, Pat Buchanan makes many points that address this issue. In part, he says:

In the 1950s, abortion was not only a crime, but a shameful act. There was no national clamor for its legalization. Yet, fifteen years later, a Supreme Court decision declaring abortion a constitutional right was hailed as a milestone of social progress. A revolutionary transformation had taken place in the beliefs of tens of millions of Americans. One of two things had happened: Either the sixties drove a moral wedge between us, or the sixties exposed a moral fracture that had existed, but that we had failed to recognize…

…Historians may one day call “the pill” the suicide tablet of the West. It was first licensed in 1960. By 1963, 6 percent of American married women were using Dr. Rock’s invention; by 1970, 43 percent were “on the pill…”

…“Any human society,” wrote anthropologist J.D. Unwin, "is free to choose either to display great energy or to enjoy sexual freedom. The evidence is that it cannot do both for more than one generation." What is now called the Greatest Generation came of age in the Depression and World War II. It displayed great energy and gave Americans a position of unrivaled preeminence. The baby boomers and Gen-Xers, by and large, opted for “sexual freedom.” Soon we shall see if Unwin was right. The early returns suggest that he was, that the West will not survive its experiment in sexual liberation in recognizable form. As the conservative columnist Jenkin Lloyd Jones observed, “Great civilizations and animal standards of behavior coexist only for short periods.”

Interesting quote, and it is being proved true more and more as time passes from the invention of the birth control pill. Mary Eberstadt’s book “Adam and Eve After the Pill,” provides an abundance of statistics on the disastrous effects of the contraceptive revolution.

 

[edwest2]

Those of us who were young at the time know we were lied to. Do you know you were lied to about late term abortion when they tried to outlaw it? Anyway, here’s a paragraph from your link:

“In fact, of course?” LOL! Once a liar, always a liar…

The Pill is the most commonly used form of birth control by US women. huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/birth-control-study-over-2-in-5-women-dont-use-contraception_n_1904802.html

The huffingtonpost? I prefer the CDC.

cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/contraception.htm#1

guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

cdapress.com/columns/my_turn/article_9d5cf6e8-232e-11e2-adf9-001a4bcf887a.html

Peace,
Ed

 

[Julia_Mae]

The huffingtonpost? I prefer the CDC.

You know, Ed, the publication site doesn’t make up the numbers, just reports them.

As to this:

cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/contraception.htm#1

Nothing on this page says women use abortion as the number 1 form of birth control. Which is the point of our exchange. Your guy said they do (“of course”) and there is no evidence to support such a ludicrous assertion.

This:
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Also doesn’t say anything at all about abortion being the most common form of birth control used by American women.

Here we have… CDAPress? srsly? Huffingtom Post at least uses sources with credentials.

cdapress.com/columns/my_turn/article_9d5cf6e8-232e-11e2-adf9-001a4bcf887a.html

Here’re the first few sentences:

The Wednesday Oct. 17, Cd’A Press “Food and Health” section had a piece written by AP medical writer Lauren Neergaard titled Study: Free birth control leads to fewer abortions. Actually the opposite is true because all birth control meds and devices are abortifacient. How does it happen?

So, is this your argument? Or whats-his-name’s? That the Pill being the main method of birth control means abortion is because the Pill can be abortifacient? It can be, sometimes. But certainly there are no statistics saying it works that way to prevent pregnancy most of the time or even a significant portion of the time.

Obviously, the bolded claim is just foolish. Barrier methods are not abortifacient, are they? So, of course, ALL birth control devices are not abortifacient.

You don’t like my reference and yours don’t support the claim. Shall we call it a draw or play citation battleship for a few more rounds?

 

[RobbyS]

You are behind a bit, the US is below the replacement rate, also.

I don’t think this is true, generally. It’s a cultural perception but not a demonstrable reality. Most women are just getting pregnant the way they always did. But I do think more are choosing not to get pregnbant. However, doesn’t address the worldwide birthrate decline.

They used to kill them and sell them more.

I don’t know why you believe this. Is there a case in progress for them to hear? They can’t just meet for coffee one morning and decide to overturn RvW, they have to have a case to rule on. And they are going to need a Constitutional argument, not a bunch of statistical data. The Supreme Court doesn’t decide what is right or what makes sense, it decides what’s legal under the Constitution.

My answer has always been the same: we have to stop trying to prove we are right, stop trying to get others to accept our theology, and focus on supporting women and helping boys and girls feel valuable and esteemed. We do that in one case by valuing children and in another by valuing the elderly. Seamless garment, all of life is valuable.

Walk the walk and people notice. Scream and preach and they cover their ears.

There should not be one child in foster care that can be adopted, because Catholics should have them all in decent homes, and there should be so many Catholics offering to be foster parents that no one else need apply. We teach our children to pray by them watching us do it.

We stop shipping our elderly off and take them into our homes and be delighted with the opportunity to make the sacrifice which will turn out to be a huge blessing for us. We care for them until death and demonstrate by our own behavior what it is to love one another.

Then, people will ask us for the answers, and we won’t need signs.

Either seamless garment is part of our theology or it is not. That opposition to the death penalty is as much a part of it as opposition to abortion suggests that it is not. Rather it is an attempt to accomodate both prolife and prochoice Catholic but with too much weight on the issue of the death penalty. The number of people executed in this country is insignificant, and virtually all, are persons convicted of horrible acts.

 

[RobbyS]

You know, Ed, the publication site doesn’t make up the numbers, just reports them.

As to this:

Nothing on this page says women use abortion as the number 1 form of birth control. Which is the point of our exchange. Your guy said they do (“of course”) and there is no evidence to support such a ludicrous assertion.

This:
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Also doesn’t say anything at all about abortion being the most common form of birth control used by American women.

Here we have… CDAPress? srsly? Huffingtom Post at least uses sources with credentials.

cdapress.com/columns/my_turn/article_9d5cf6e8-232e-11e2-adf9-001a4bcf887a.html

Here’re the first few sentences:

So, is this your argument? Or whats-his-name’s? That the Pill being the main method of birth control means abortion is because the Pill can be abortifacient? It can be, sometimes. But certainly there are no statistics saying it works that way to prevent pregnancy most of the time or even a significant portion of the time.

Obviously, the bolded claim is just foolish. Barrier methods are not abortifacient, are they? So, of course, ALL birth control devices are not abortifacient.

You don’t like my reference and yours don’t support the claim. Shall we call it a draw or play citation battleship for a few more rounds?

Abortion is the ultimate back-up for birth control, just as exposing children was in former times. Now I don’t believe that those who have abortions are more or less
free to act as they do. But far more people have less qualms about resorting to induced abortions than about infanticide, in part because the law says they have perfect liberty to have an unborn child killed, but a severely limited right to kill them after birth. I know a case where a young women had a baby in the bathroom and then threw the still living child out of the window to die in the cold. Despite much evidence that she was irrational at the time, she went to jail. Most women are convinced that the killing of a fetus is quite reasonable if she feels threatened by the consequences of her becoming pregnant.

 

[fnr]

Those of us who were young at the time know we were lied to. Do you know you were lied to about late term abortion when they tried to outlaw it? Anyway, here’s a paragraph from your link:

We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 - 250 annually. The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.

 

[manualman]

Nathanson quote “…In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization…”

“In fact, of course?” LOL! Once a liar, always a liar…

The Pill is the most commonly used form of birth control by US women. huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/birth-control-study-over-2-in-5-women-dont-use-contraception_n_1904802.html

Uh, you might be having a reading comprehension issue there. He didn’t say that abortion is used as THE primary method of birth control, he said that it is being used as A primary method of birth control. In other words, he is claiming that it is not uncommon for people to fornicate without using condoms, pills, etc with the vague notion that if a pregnancy results, they still have “choices” available (as opposed to people ‘carefully’ using ‘protection’ and having abortions when those measures fail).

If you really doubt that there are lots of people like that out there, you need to get out more.

As to the alleged drawbacks of abstinance based education, there are some important distinctions to be made here. I certainly agree that you can’t simply package a slick “keep your pants on” campaign, market it to kids immersed in a sexually exploitive culture for an hour a week during school by a teacher who, by the odds, doesn’t really believe in it and expect miraculous results. What DOES work is when kids are introduced to a complete explanation of what human sexuality really is, the way it acts as the cement in the concrete of marriage and how abusing it drastically reduces its power to hold a marriage together in the future. When this is presented by family and role models who live it and believe it themselves, kids CAN rise above the debased culture. I’ve seen it, I lived it as a college student (too many years ago!). Schools can’t do this effectively without serious backup from family and church.

My conclusion for public education is that there can’t be any harm in telling the WHOLE truth. We got told condescending and insulting slogans like "It’s best not to, but since we know you’re going to, at least practice “safe sex.” Seriously, that was the slogan. As if there was such a thing. How about telling them how unsafe fornication ACTUALLY is? Condoms don’t provide even close to 98% protection rates against STDs, but let’s say they do. Sally gives in to boyfriend Johnny because Johnny has some Trojans and in school they told her that would protect her. Johnny’s got an STD, but doesn’t know it yet. They haven’t had statistics yet and nobody TELLS them that if you do something with a 2% chance of something bad happening 20 times, then you’ve got a 1 in 3 chance of that bad thing happening! I’m not sure about you, but 1/3 doesn’t sound like “safe” in my book. Heck, Russian Roulette has better odds.

So I’m actually OK with public schools (at least at the high school level, where to start is up for debate) talking about the biology, the physiology, pregnancy, child development, STD’s and contraception. But I want the WHOLE story told about contraception. I want it admitted that these are flimsy attempts to make a deadly dangerous choice merely LESS dangerous (not “safe”) and that the only safe option for health and long term happiness is married, faithful monogamy. There are PLENTY of public health reasons why this can be taught in public schools without morals and dogma being brought up.

 

[fnr]

Abortion is the ultimate back-up for birth control, just as exposing children was in former times.

The way I put it is that contraception is primary insurance against unwanted pregnancy. Induced abortion is secondary insurance against unwanted pregnancy, in case of some failure, tampering, or malpractice of contraception.

I think it’s useful to think about it this way because insurance is part of economic decision-making. Typically, when discussing insurance, a policy applies to something of value: a car, a house, a life. Now, there is disability income insurance that you can buy if you become incapacitated and incapable of earning an income. To me, contraception and abortion fit into the personal economic calculus in the same manner. What’s being “insured” – and I don’t say this pejoratively in the least – is life plans.

Single women in high school, college, graduate/professional school, or early in a career generally see pregnancy as incompatible with being a student, and that view is reinforced by social expectations and family pressures. As such, contraception and abortion insure against a “premature” abridgment of school or career. That shows up in the abortion ratios (abortions per 1000 live births) being highest among teenagers. That’s reinforced by everyone’s conception of teenage motherhood (notably lacking is concern over teenage fatherhood). Furthermore, economic shocks (e.g., plant closings) reduce new household formation and fertility rates, so it appears that child-bearing is also a decision that considers current economic circumstances, even among women (and men) otherwise ready for children.

Most women are convinced that the killing of a fetus is quite reasonable if she feels threatened by the consequences of her becoming pregnant.

Exactly.

I would also say that most women getting abortions do not do so lightly. I have a friend who’s in her early 30s who had an abortion about 5 or 6 years ago after feeling as though the father was leaving her to fend on her own. She’s never really forgiven herself for it. That’s not to say she’s clinically depressed, but she certainly has guilt about her decision.

I think it’s way too easy to portray women receiving abortions as amoral, but in general, they’re just like everyone else.