Harmonica during Mass. Thoughts?

[pianistclare]

This is from the Association of Organ Builders of America:
The cost of a pipe organ can be as low as $30,000.00 for a used instrument relocated to a new home, to millions of dollars for a new instrument built for a major church or concert hall. The range of cost for a pipe organ for a small to medium sized church is in the area of $200,000.00 – 850,000.00.

This is the reason why “other” instruments are utilized. My parish has a 2 million dollar debt for the Sanctuary. We have NO church hall. We have NO classrooms. We have a home sized kitchen. We have ONE storage closet. You can imagine that the pipe organ and it’s installation was way down the list of things to buy, when we’re still paying for pews and a Tabernacle.
It has little or nothing to do with Vatican II.

 

[27lw]

I’m trying to remember when I told every church they must build a pipe organ. In fact, I think there are plenty of churches that have pipe organs, but use them sparingly (in favor of the piano). I don’t know that it costs extra to choose the more reverent hymns, rather than the more pop-styled hymns.

 

[ProVobis]

We should be careful to not be quite so critical of our priests. They are the ones in charge of the liturgy in their parishes.

Clare, you and Cat keep saying this but is this really true? It seems that once a parish does things a certain way, that “tradition” sticks with that parish, regardless of whom they assign to that parish. As I have attended quite a few parishes in my lifetime, every now and then I go back and visit. Not very much has really changed since the 70’s, although a Spanish Mass or two might have been added to some of the parish schedules.

 

[Mark121359]

LOL.
I’m always tickled when I read comments that say something about “modernists”. The remark drips with scorn. I wonder if people who love the liturgy of centuries ago would enjoy it if people regularly posted about antiquarians or some other negative-sounding term. Not that I would do it, but honestly. Is there no charity left in the world?

Well I’ll tell you something, many Catholics feel this way with regards to the introduction of drums and guitars and other such musical instruments into Catholic Mass. You can call me uncharitable, that’s fine, I have thick skin, but ask yourself this…would guitars and drums be acceptable at the foot of Calvary? Because as you surely know, when we go to Mass, we’re truly present at the foot of the cross, along with Mary, His incomparable Mother! IMHO, no, drums, guitars and the like are not appropriate. Interestingly, on Patrick Madrid’s website a priest had this comment that I wholeheartedly agree with. His last line in bolded says it all;

“From my experience as a pastor, I can say with great confidence that what youth yearn for is not praise and worship, guitars and drums, but reverence, mystery, silence, and fidelity to the 2000 year tradition of the Church. When parishes start using incense, Latin, chant, more silence, the organ instead of guitars and drums, the young people start showing up more and more, and vocations blossom from within the community. Young people do not want a Mass that reflects the world, but a Mass that reflects heaven, which is other worldly and mysterious. Drums, guitars, clapping, etc., do not reflect heaven, they reflect a rock concert.”

Peace, Mark

 

[pianistclare]

Well I’ll tell you something, many Catholics feel this way with regards to the introduction of drums and guitars and other such musical instruments into Catholic Mass. You can call me uncharitable, that’s fine, I have thick skin, but ask yourself this…would guitars and drums be acceptable at the foot of Calvary? Because as you surely know, when we go to Mass, we’re truly present at the foot of the cross, along with Mary, His incomparable Mother! IMHO, no, drums, guitars and the like are not appropriate. Interestingly, on Patrick Madrid’s website a priest had this comment that I wholeheartedly agree with. His last line bolded says it all;

Peace, Mark

We don’t use drums. Few places really do. There might be a teen Mass here and there, but I don’t see this in the parishes around here. But Lutes were definitely used in Biblical times.
Like I said before if it’s not YOUR personal thing, that’s fine, go elsewhere. But I’m never willing to bash all Church musicians for the actions of a few.
I would ask the “many Catholics” to see to it that the Catholic schools offer training in Organ playing, that they fund the continuing education of their parish musicians and that they be willing to up their tithing in order to accommodate what it really takes to get a good music ministry going.
I’m quite aware of what transpires in the Mass, thanks.

 

[27lw]

We don’t use drums.** Few places really do**.

Are you sure about that? I know of 2 parishes in my medium-sized city that do use drums. Multiply that around the country, it’s more than “few”.

There might be a teen Mass here and there, but I don’t see this in the parishes around here.** But Lutes were definitely used in Biblical times.**

Hmmm. Lutes in some form may have existed during Biblical times, yes. It would be interesting to learn more about how / whether they were used in liturgy.

Like I said before if it’s not YOUR personal thing, that’s fine, go elsewhere. But I’m never willing to bash all Church musicians for the actions of a few.
I would ask the “many Catholics” to see to it that the Catholic schools offer training in Organ playing, that they fund the continuing education of their parish musicians and that they be willing to up their tithing in order to accommodate what it really takes to get a good music ministry going.

Many churches are already paying music directors. It’s just that some priests allow a lot of latitude in what the music directors choose. Like I said, choosing the more reverent hymns doesn’t cost extra. Saying “actually, we decided we’re not going to use the harmonica during Mass” doesn’t cost extra. When it’s time to choose the missalettes, there are different choices, some of which lean more traditional and reverent, some of which are more pop-styled. Nowadays there are tons of tutorials on youtube, CMAA, etc. on where to find good quality Catholic music, and how to perform chant. It’s not like this has to cost $$$$. The priest sets the tone.

 

[pianistclare]

Are you sure about that? I know of 2 parishes in my medium-sized city that do use drums. Multiply that around the country, it’s more than “few”.

Hmmm. Lutes in some form may have existed during Biblical times, yes. It would be interesting to learn more about how / whether they were used in liturgy.

Many churches are already paying music directors. It’s just that some priests allow a lot of latitude in what the music directors choose. Like I said, choosing the more reverent hymns doesn’t cost extra. Saying “actually, we decided we’re not going to use the harmonica during Mass” doesn’t cost extra. When it’s time to choose the missalettes, there are different choices, some of which lean more traditional and reverent, some of which are more pop-styled. Nowadays there are tons of tutorials on youtube, CMAA, etc. on where to find good quality Catholic music, and how to perform chant. It’s not like this has to cost $$$$. The priest sets the tone.

They play the drums at every single Mass? I find that incredible. We have drums that are used only very occasionally.
As for the rest of it, I pretty much what I have said already.
Generally, “pay” in no way relates to the level of training that a musician has.
Most people wouldn’t even ask for pay if they were not expected to be there for everything, keep up with all the administrative stuff, play all funerals for free, meet with brides, order the music, keep up with the licensing, the care and storage of instruments, and manage all the various personalities, and keep the angry hoard in the pews happy.
Because believe it or not people; for as many CAF member who LOVE chant, and old hymns, there are just as many who want the more recent compositions. Honest.
People like what they grew up on. Some of us loathe the Glory and Praise hymnal, but for many middle aged Catholics, this is all they know. These are the songs of their childhood.
The young people never have heard of some of our beloved hymns. When I worked in the Catholic school, and was expected to volunteer to play for everything, I expressed that every child there should learn Tantum Ergo , O Salutaris, Immaculate, Mary (standards, you get the picture) but the Music teacher and the principal said that it was a waste of time. People simply don’t believe that children can learn things (which is ridiculous) and that they would never get a chance to sing them anyway. It’s sad. But it’s not the musician’s fault. As a musician I’ll play, sing, or lead anything.
The pastor that I have worked for which had the best program, the happiest singers, and the most reverent music was himself a musician. We got along well, and he was very supportive. And opinionated, but in a good way!

 

[JakeWI]

They play the drums at every single Mass? I find that incredible. We have drums that are used only very occasionally.
As for the rest of it, I pretty much what I have said already.
Generally, “pay” in no way relates to the level of training that a musician has.
Most people wouldn’t even ask for pay if they were not expected to be there for everything, keep up with all the administrative stuff, play all funerals for free, meet with brides, order the music, keep up with the licensing, the care and storage of instruments, and manage all the various personalities, and keep the angry hoard in the pews happy.
Because believe it or not people; for as many CAF member who LOVE chant, and old hymns, there are just as many who want the more recent compositions. Honest.
People like what they grew up on. Some of us loathe the Glory and Praise hymnal, but for many middle aged Catholics, this is all they know. These are the songs of their childhood.
The young people never have heard of some of our beloved hymns. When I worked in the Catholic school, and was expected to volunteer to play for everything, I expressed that every child there should learn Tantum Ergo , O Salutaris, Immaculate, Mary (standards, you get the picture) but the Music teacher and the principal said that it was a waste of time. People simply don’t believe that children can learn things (which is ridiculous) and that they would never get a chance to sing them anyway. It’s sad. But it’s not the musician’s fault. As a musician I’ll play, sing, or lead anything.
The pastor that I have worked for which had the best program, the happiest singers, and the most reverent music was himself a musician. We got along well, and he was very supportive. And opinionated, but in a good way!

Well, then I will really thank God that we have what we have at our Parish school and church. Our Dir of Music believes in beauty… period… be it from recent or past. She will more often than not incorporate the hymns of the 1500s-1800s, and is even using Schubert’s “Deutsche Messe” setting in English right now… which I think is the 900’s? She will also incorporate the best of Haugen, Haas, or John Michael Talbot… or at least the most beautiful of their songs. None of the typical “Gather Us In”, “All are Welcome” type songs. More of the Talbot’s “Holy Is His Name” or Haas’ “We Will Rise Again”. No drums or guitars either, just piano or organ and occasionally a cello if the person who plays it is available.

She teaches in our school a couple days a week, and their new full time music teacher is part of the choir at our Church/is a cantor, so I strongly believe she is probably on the same wavelength. I do know our children’s choir has sung in Latin before… and it is just beautiful.

There are many songs that were foreign to me when I came to the Parish, as I grew up on the typical of many Catholic Churches that you explain, but I have learned them as they were played… with many affecting me in a very positive way that the others never did… some even brought tears to my eyes in the beauty of it.

Just because it isn’t “familiar” doesn’t mean people won’t get used to it, or think it is beautiful and want to hear more. On the contrary, we have seen constant growth of the Parish, and MANY young families who are very, very active. I guess it is all in the way you want to look at things… but I do know our choir ended up with applause following Mass once a few weeks back. I really don’t like when people do that, as the choir is for signing praises to God… but it is the first time I ever seen anyone in our Parish do that after Mass. This tells me that they must be doing something right. Of course… every Parish varies… so YMMV is what I am learning depending on the areas you are and age of Parishioners.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, then I will really thank God that we have what we have at our Parish school and church. Our Dir of Music believes in beauty… period… be it from recent or past. She will more often than not incorporate the hymns of the 1500s-1800s, and is even using Schubert’s “Deutsche Messe” setting in English right now… which I think is the 900’s? She will also incorporate the best of Haugen, Haas, or John Michael Talbot… or at least the most beautiful of their songs. None of the typical “Gather Us In”, “All are Welcome” type songs. More of the Talbot’s “Holy Is His Name” or Haas’ “We Will Rise Again”. No drums or guitars either, just piano or organ and occasionally a cello if the person who plays it is available.

She teaches in our school a couple days a week, and their new full time music teacher is part of the choir at our Church/is a cantor, so I strongly believe she is probably on the same wavelength. I do know our children’s choir has sung in Latin before… and it is just beautiful.

There are many songs that were foreign to me when I came to the Parish, as I grew up on the typical of many Catholic Churches that you explain, but I have learned them as they were played… with many affecting me in a very positive way that the others never did… some even brought tears to my eyes in the beauty of it.

Just because it isn’t “familiar” doesn’t mean people won’t get used to it, or think it is beautiful and want to hear more. On the contrary, we have seen constant growth of the Parish, and MANY young families who are very, very active. I guess it is all in the way you want to look at things… but I do know our choir ended up with applause following Mass once a few weeks back. I really don’t like when people do that, as the choir is for signing praises to God… but it is the first time I ever seen anyone in our Parish do that after Mass. This tells me that they must be doing something right. Of course… every Parish varies… so YMMV is what I am learning depending on the areas you are and age of Parishioners.

You are blessed.

 

[JakeWI]

You are blessed.

I guess I just hope I can instill some hope to those of you that do try to portray the beauty of the Church, but end up hitting road blocks. It seems the newer Priests coming out are more appreciative of the history of the Liturgy, as ours is. I pray that eventually you can experience what I have experienced, and it continues to spread. I used to be in the “traditional hymns only” or classic hymns only camp… but have been learning that it really does come down to this: what is beautiful that we can serve to the Lord with, no matter how old or new… as there is beauty from the 2,000 years of the Church to pick from.

 

[pianistclare]

I guess I just hope I can instill some hope to those of you that do try to portray the beauty of the Church, but end up hitting road blocks. It seems the newer Priests coming out are more appreciative of the history of the Liturgy, as ours is. I pray that eventually you can experience what I have experienced, and it continues to spread. I used to be in the “traditional hymns only” or classic hymns only camp… but have been learning that it really does come down to this: what is beautiful that we can serve to the Lord with, no matter how old or new… as there is beauty from the 2,000 years of the Church to pick from.

Exactly. And sitting around being angry during Mass does not honor God.
Thank you.

 

[Cat]

I guess I just hope I can instill some hope to those of you that do try to portray the beauty of the Church, but end up hitting road blocks. It seems the newer Priests coming out are more appreciative of the history of the Liturgy, as ours is. I pray that eventually you can experience what I have experienced, and it continues to spread. I used to be in the “traditional hymns only” or classic hymns only camp… but have been learning that it really does come down to this: what is beautiful that we can serve to the Lord with, no matter how old or new… as there is beauty from the 2,000 years of the Church to pick from.

I agree with you that young priests often have an interest in bringing the ancient styles of music, older hymns, and of course, the organ, back into the Mass.

Here’s what I’ve seen: sometimes, these young priests lack the tact to be able to successfully bring something old/new into the parish. They end up making people feel condemned or even less of a Christian for preferring their old favorites, and the people rebel, and the poor young priest is upended before he even gets one chant in place.

I hope that seminaries are teaching better methods of “out with the new, in with the old”.

As I’ve said over and over again in this thread and many others over the years, you can’t just have chant and organ music because “it’s what the Church wants.” That’s great, but someone has to have the expertise and knowledge of the music as well as the ability to teach the music to people of all ages and levels, and also, the ability to help people to learn to LOVE the music.

I believe that any of us can probably learn anything, but isn’t it better to not only learn how to do it, but how to love it, or at least appreciate it.

As for organists, they’re getting harder and harder to find. The statistics that were just released this fall by the American Guild of Organists are NOT encouraging. Fewer people than ever are learning to play the organ.

 

[yellowbird]

I would be surprised to hear a harmonica, but I don’t think I’d mind - I really like the sound. I’m a big fan of Jimmy Buffett though so perhaps I’d be wishing our final song could be Pirate Looks at Forty.

I will say this… I don’t care for drums at mass. They’re often overpowering which gives me a headache and causes me to lose my focus.

 

[ProVobis]

As for organists, they’re getting harder and harder to find. The statistics that were just released this fall by the American Guild of Organists are NOT encouraging. Fewer people than ever are learning to play the organ.

Maybe fewer are learning but more are putting themselves up on you-tube.

 

[Cat]

I would be surprised to hear a harmonica, but I don’t think I’d mind - I really like the sound. I’m a big fan of Jimmy Buffett though so perhaps I’d be wishing our final song could be Pirate Looks at Forty.

I will say this… I don’t care for drums at mass. They’re often overpowering which gives me a headache and causes me to lose my focus.

And I don’t care for babies and toddlers at Mass. The crying and fussing is often overpowering, and although I don’t get headaches, I definitely lose my focus.

But it’s not my call, is it? The Church has not forbidden babies and toddlers in the Mass (quite the opposite), and the Church has not forbidden drums in the Mass when the territorial authority (bishop/priest) allows them.

We both need to practice being detached when it comes to our personal preferences for Mass.

 

[August_Carlson]

I’ve been playing harmonica professionally – both chromatic and diatonic – for almost 50 years, and am competent in most styles of performance from classical to jazz. I love the “harp” but don’t think harmonica’s are the kind of instruments that belongs in a church setting despite their ability, when properly played, to evoke a positive response from many listeners. Put simply, the instrument’s voice is too small. It’s essentially (with notable exceptions) a melody instrument set in the soprano range, and that makes its voice acoustically “thin.” Its volume is not controlled by the amount of air that is pushed or drawn over its reeds, rather its “loudness” comes from the size of the performer’s mouth, the “bell” created by the cup of his hands, and the intensity of his performance – some guys are naturally louder than others. Nonetheless, the harmonica in an acoustic setting, regardless of how loudly it is played is incapable of competing with an instrument such as the trumpet. They’re just not built to be loud. A properly played harmonica requires amplification in order to be heard well. I think this points away from its use as a liturgical instrument.Most liturgical instruments do not require amplification in order to be heard.Think about it: organs, trumpets, violins, pianos and (especially) the human voice – none of these need be amplified to be heard. I think that the harmonica belongs on the concert stage and not in the choir loft.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ve been playing harmonica professionally – both chromatic and diatonic – for almost 50 years, and am competent in most styles of performance from classical to jazz. I love the “harp” but don’t think harmonica’s are the kind of instruments that belongs in a church setting despite their ability, when properly played, to evoke a positive response from many listeners. Put simply, the instrument’s voice is too small. It’s essentially (with notable exceptions) a melody instrument set in the soprano range, and that makes its voice acoustically “thin.” Its volume is not controlled by the amount of air that is pushed or drawn over its reeds, rather its “loudness” comes from the size of the performer’s mouth, the “bell” created by the cup of his hands, and the intensity of his performance – some guys are naturally louder than others. Nonetheless, the harmonica in an acoustic setting, regardless of how loudly it is played is incapable of competing with an instrument such as the trumpet. They’re just not built to be loud. A properly played harmonica requires amplification in order to be heard well. I think this points away from its use as a liturgical instrument.Most liturgical instruments do not require amplification in order to be heard.Think about it: organs, trumpets, violins, pianos and (especially) the human voice – none of these need be amplified to be heard. I think that the harmonica belongs on the concert stage and not in the choir loft.

That was a very insightful and informative post. Thank you. And for the record, I apologize for lumping your craft in with hobos on a train…

Welcome to the forums!

 

[styrgwillidar]

I love the harmonica, mainly from listening to the blues! Some of those guys are just awesome.

That said, I prefer mass with no music at all- but I have no problem with any particular instrument. Really depends on the musical selection, how well it’s played. I certainly wouldn’t leave a mass over the musical choice, variety is the spice of life.

The musical selections will never please everyone at a mass, that’s why there are so many genres of music. I appreciate the effort and willingness of those folks to bring their talents in celebrating the mass. Even if it isn’t my thing…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And I don’t care for babies and toddlers at Mass. The crying and fussing is often overpowering, and although I don’t get headaches, I definitely lose my focus.

But it’s not my call, is it? The Church has not forbidden babies and toddlers in the Mass (quite the opposite), and the Church has not forbidden drums in the Mass when the territorial authority (bishop/priest) allows them.

We both need to practice being detached when it comes to our personal preferences for Mass.

Cat, and Pianistclaire,

I know that the brunt of criticism on musical matters is heaped upon you two. And from what I gather, you both are excellent at your jobs and very respectful and reverent.

But, you both obviously are blessed to not have to deal with absolute silliness when it comes to music in Mass. I have seen both the good and bad. And even the good is sometimes bad. I have seen a drum set with the “band” name on it behind a glass partition used to bang out some sort of contemporary Top 20 Christian song at Mass. I have seen secular songs used, bongos, electric guitars, and once, (I am not kidding) a turntable.
I have witness music directors who have bullied a parish or a priest. (especially if the priest happens to be foreign) into making Mass into a personal concert.

So, when someone complains about music at Mass, you need to also remember that they may have been involved with something that could be quite traumatic (spiritually speaking)

And as the flag bearers for “music done right” in a parish or the lack of properly trained musicians it should anger you guys most of all.

My current parish is probably one of the most musically talented in the country. They have released a hymnal that is used in several countries and diocese as an alternative to OCP. But even then, there is something distracting about the music in the Mass. Something that is out of whack.

I had a long conversation with a music minister for teens a month or two ago. And I can tell you, that the problem is indeed with the amount of material out there. It is overwhelmingly protestant. But really, think about it, after VII more music was introduced into the Mass. But, in English many “Traditional” Hymns were protestant, baptist or Anglican or Lutheran in nature. Because that is what “Church liturgies” had been ok with when they moved away from the Mass and more toward a “service” So by the time Catholics open the Mass to more music, all we have to choose from is cookie cutter christian top 20 songs, or old school southern baptist hymns. (a generalization to be sure) There is a lack of talent and material on the Catholic side. And that is not to be fixed quickly.

What happens now is a band like david crowder (whom I LOVE) releases adoration songs (not Catholic adoration but “hands up” let the spirit take you away, amen" adoration songs. And we adopt them for a communion hymn at Mass. A square peg, in a round hole. For they are not written for a liturgical season or part of a Catholic Mass but for general nondenom. “worship” Which is not what a Mass is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That said, I prefer mass with no music at all-…

This would be my personal preference as well. (don’t tell my daughters in the Children’s Choir though and I do love to hear my children s voices)