Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (SPOILERS!)

[bekalc]

Rowling’s mother had MS so she may feel that its okay to help someone avoid pain and humilation… who knows.

As for Snape’s love for Lily. I’m of the opinion that if you ever truly loved someone you don’t stop loving them. But I think the point is Snape never went after Lily when she was married it looks like, rather he distanced himself.

 

[Woodstock]

Dumbledore says Harry is a better man than him and admits to many weaknesses. He says he still has lingering effects from his forays into pride and “for the greater good” still guides his decisions at times. Out of this weakness and pride comes his request for euthanasia. This is contrasted with Harry who is willing to face the uncertainty of death with his head held high. Harry doesn’t shrink from death like Dumbledore did, but faced it boldly. The striking difference in these two deaths shows which of the two should be respected and emulated.

As for Snape, Rowling was surprised when Meridith Vierra called him a hero in her interview on Today. She paints him as self-serving and spiteful to the end. Hardly a glorification.

Meridith: Was Snape always intended to be a hero?
J. K. Rowling: (Gasps) Is he a hero? You see, I don’t see him as a hero. Really, he’s spiteful, he’s a bully, all these things are true of Snape, even at the end of this book. Um, but was he brave, yes, immensely.

Greta, Age 8: If Snape didn’t love Lily, would he still have protected Harry?
J. K. Rowling: No he definately wouldn’t have done. He wouldn’t have been remotely interested in what happened to that boy.

 

[the_nuge]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut Melissa.

Well, you could look at it as the dead have their fate fixed, so there’s really no point in having pity (how can you have compassion on someone whose fate can’t be changed?) on the dead.

Why do we pray for the dead then?

As a Christian I see three classifications of “the Dead”:

1. Dead saints. They don’t need our pity. I don’t pity them. They’re with God right now!
2. The dead righteous. They may be righteous but they will go through purgatory and thus we pity them and pray for them (as we pray for ourselves to be up to the test). (Of course, along with that pity we anticipate the joy they will have on entering heaven and share in that joy.)
3. and the the Damned. Well, they are damned, but, as Christians, shouldn’t we pity them? Isn’t that the action that faith fosters? Sure it won’t do them any good, but is that a requirement for having pity; that it has some positive/measureable effect? I pity the poor worldwide. I don’t think it will do them any good, my pity, but I pity them never-the-less.

Dumbledore’s death–it certainly does look like euthanasia, but I’m not sure that he wasn’t a ‘dead man walking’ from the time he put on the ring. Certainly, the way he died was different than others who’d been ‘Avada’d’ and we learn in HBP that skilled wizards can cast spells without speaking them aloud. So–suppose that what Snape actually did was remove the ‘tourniquet’ on the curse in Dumbledore’s hand (which would’ve killed him earlier if the ‘tourniquet’ hadn’t been there), and “Avada’d” the corpse to make it ‘look good’ to the Death Eaters. (Tourniquet isn’t used in the book, but that’s what I thought of when told that Snape had ‘contained’ the curse in Dumbledore’s hand.)

OK we all seem to be making comparisons to describe our points of view. Let’s equate the curse from the ring with terminal cancer. Removing the action that slows down the inevitable (removing the tourniquet, turning off the respirator, unstoppering the curse) is far different than taking action to produce the inevitable immediately (injecting too much morphine, smothering with a pillow or casting a killing curse at one’s chest).

 

[child_of_God85]

I think it is so immature and stupid for people to try and bring euthenasia into this at all. I mean, this is nit picking in a nut shell! I highly doubt that JKR was thinking of all the ways to offend the church while writing this book. Yeah, I mean, it must have been a real toss for her to choose between euthanasia or gay marriage !
Puhleeez!

 

[Woodstock]

I think it is so immature and stupid for people to try and bring euthenasia into this at all. I mean, this is nit picking in a nut shell! I highly doubt that JKR was thinking of all the ways to offend the church while writing this book. Yeah, I mean, it must have been a real toss for her to choose between euthanasia or gay marriage !
Puhleeez!

As a matter of fact, she deals with many modern issues openly. The books are set in the 1990s. War and terrorism are common, slavery is a big one, and Nazisms and fascism are roundly condemned. She has boxes of back story on motivations, pasts, futures, and character’s favorite colors, so yes, I would say that she understood the implication having Dumbledore’s motivating reason behind his death be “for the greater good” was meticulously planned. The contrast this has with Harry’s self-giving death is what I consider the important aspect. Snape, in contrast to both, is seen dying without any fanfare or praise, at the hand of the one he willingly served, because he is no longer useful. He is put down like an unwanted dog after he’s served his purpose. The deaths of these three, read so close together, highlight the moral character of each.

Dumbledore, though brilliant, had his flaws. Pride was one of them.

 

[the_nuge]

I think it is so immature and stupid

Wow! Hey! Stupid, huh? Harumph. I say, do let’s keep the DISCUSSION civil, shall we?

 

[bquinnan]

Dumbledore’s death–it certainly does look like euthanasia, but I’m not sure that he wasn’t a ‘dead man walking’ from the time he put on the ring.

Technically, we’re all “dead men (or women) walking.” We’re all going to die at some point, and we’ll most likely suffer before that happens. Ethanasia advocates usually point to the terminally ill when making their case – people who are “going to die anyway.” The bottom line is, destroying a human life to prevent suffering is morally wrong.

Certainly, the way he died was different than others who’d been ‘Avada’d’ and we learn in HBP that skilled wizards can cast spells without speaking them aloud. So–suppose that what Snape actually did was remove the ‘tourniquet’ on the curse in Dumbledore’s hand (which would’ve killed him earlier if the ‘tourniquet’ hadn’t been there), and “Avada’d” the corpse to make it ‘look good’ to the Death Eaters. (Tourniquet isn’t used in the book, but that’s what I thought of when told that Snape had ‘contained’ the curse in Dumbledore’s hand.)

If that were true – that Snape had merely removed an artificial life-support system of sorts, I’d have no problem with that. But there is no evidence that Rowlings had anything like that in mind.

 

[BasBleu]

To the person who said that Snape only asked Harry (commanded/ORDERED Harry) to look at him was to convey his memories, he had already had the memories. We don’t get that Harry picked up any more by looking at him. No, I am telling you, it makes sense that he was lusting for Lily, long after she was dead. We can now go back and re-read all the books and infer this whenever Snape always looked at Harry a little longer, always in the eye.

No Harry did not already have the memories. Snape gave the memories to Harry as he was dying.

From page 657:

“Take…it…Take…it…”
Something more than blood was leaking from Snape. Silvery blue…it gushed from his mouth and his ears and his eyes, and Harry knew what it was, but he did not know what to do-

A flask, conjured from thin air, was thrust into his shaking hands by Hermione. Harry lifted the silvery substance into it with his wand. When the flask was full to the brim, and Snape looked as though there was no blood left in him, his grip on Harry’s robes slackened.

The substance is Snape’s memories.

From the next chapter, page 662:

The stone Pensieve lay in the cabinet where it had always been: harry heaved it onto the desk and poured Snape’s memories into the wide basin…The memories swirled, siver white and stange and without hesitating…Harry dived.

 

[Melissa]

If that were true – that Snape had merely removed an artificial life-support system of sorts, I’d have no problem with that. But there is no evidence that Rowlings had anything like that in mind.

Here’s what I can offer in support of the theory:

HBP, p. 583

"In the dim green glow from the Mark, Harry saw Dumbledore clutching at his chest with his blackened hand.

“Go and wake Severus,” said Dumbledore faintly but clearly. “Tell him what has happened and bring him to me.”

(Now Harry gets immobilized and can’t actually do that, and just has to stand rooted to the spot under an invisibility cloak)

HBP, p. 595-96

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was refulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

“Severus … please …”

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.

“Avada Kedavra”

A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape’s wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest … Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll …

HBP, p. 604

“No, Potter!” screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again … Snape’s pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.

HBP, p. 608

Dumbledore’s eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping.

GoF, p. 638

“Avada Kedavra!”

A blast of green light blazed through Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him …

Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead.

For a second that contained an eternity, Harry stared into Cedric’s face, at his open gray eyes, blank and expressionless … at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised …

At least, the eyes open/closed peace/surprise contrast is what I’ve seen others hinge the argument on that Snape didn’t kill Dumbledore with the Avada.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Here’s what I can offer in support of the theory:

HBP, p. 583

(Now Harry gets immobilized and can’t actually do that, and just has to stand rooted to the spot under an invisibility cloak)

HBP, p. 595-96

HBP, p. 604

HBP, p. 608

GoF, p. 638

At least, the eyes open/closed peace/surprise contrast is what I’ve seen others hinge the argument on that Snape didn’t kill Dumbledore with the Avada.

Hi Melissa,

I was going to post that too (eyes closed vs opened). I think its in GoF that the Riddles are killed. They have the same open eyed surprised expression as well.

In HBP it says that DD was in a greatly weakened condition because of the potion he drank in the cave.

In DH doesn’t Snape tell DD he has less than a year? DD gets Harry from the Dursley’s well before his birthday (7/31). Doesn’t the end of term for Hogwarts end at the end of June? DD could have been at the point that Snape couldn’t help him with the curse any longer complicated by the potion he drank.

Also, with the unforgivable curses you have to mean it for it to be effective. I wonder, what would happen to someone if they were AK’d but the person doing it didn’t really want to?

 

[Catholig]

I haven’t read this thread, because I’m still not finished w/ book 7, but when I do I’ll look forward to doing it.

My comments though - does anyone else feel sorry for Snape. You know regarding his once being best friends with Lily, and his love for her. How it all went down the drain. How he was prepared to camp outside the Gryffindor dormitory to make amends. I do - I feel really, really bad for him. I mean I don’t think I’ve ever lost a friend in that way, and definitely not anyone I loved (was infatuated with) but it seemed so very real. I wished he’d make amends. That he did more to preserve their friendship. That he camped out there every night - that he visited her folks over holidays. I mean - I’m just really, really sad about this.

Sorry that that is such a jumble up there - I never fully figured out the paragraph. And the thoughts being varied might even be split up into several small little ones…

I’m just about this. I really am. I’d like to read more about Snape & Lily now.

Catholig

 

[Woodstock]

My comments though - does anyone else feel sorry for Snape.

He’s a selfish and jealous bully who had racist ideas that he was willing to mostly put aside for this one person. She was a heroic and loyal person capable of true love. I don’t feel sorry for him that she wouldn’t be with him.

 

[Catholig]

He’s a selfish and jealous bully who had racist ideas that he was willing to mostly put aside for this one person. She was a heroic and loyal person capable of true love. I don’t feel sorry for him that she wouldn’t be with him.

If you noticed though - he did turn away from this racist ideas. Remember when Nigellus used the word “Mudblood” in reference to Hermione Ganger? He said, “don’t use that word”.

Catholig

 

[Woodstock]

If you noticed though - he did turn away from this racist ideas. Remember when Nigellus used the word “Mudblood” in reference to Hermione Ganger? He said, “don’t use that word”.

Catholig

Only because it caused him pain to remember Lily. He didn’t have a change of heart. That’s hardly worth pity considering what that mentality had cost him.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Only because it caused him pain to remember Lily. He didn’t have a change of heart. That’s hardly worth pity considering what that mentality had cost him.

I agree one hundred and fifty percent. Snape may have done the right things in the end, but he did them for the wrong reasons. He wasn’t a hero. In the book he goes to Dumbledore, not to save the Potter family. He goes to save Lilly. He doesn’t care that Harry will die, nor does he think about the immense pain and anguish and guilt that Lily will feel upon losing both her husband and child. Snape simply doesn’t consider that maybe she won’t want to be with him even then.

At Snape’s passing, he doesn’t want to look at Harry to make sure that the point is getting across. He wants to look in Lily’s eyes one last time. His patronus, a doe, was because of Lily, and her eyes. Snape selfishly loved Lily, and was not a hero of any means. While I did feel bad that he died, it was not because he died a hero’s death of self sacrfice and greater good, it was because he was one of the characters that was gray. He was a little like the anti Sirius in that way. Snape was more black that white, whereas Sirius was more white than black, there was ambiguity in their characters and motviations than many of the other characters in the book.

 

[Catholig]

I agree one hundred and fifty percent. Snape may have done the right things in the end, but he did them for the wrong reasons. He wasn’t a hero. In the book he goes to Dumbledore, not to save the Potter family. He goes to save Lilly. He doesn’t care that Harry will die, nor does he think about the immense pain and anguish and guilt that Lily will feel upon losing both her husband and child. Snape simply doesn’t consider that maybe she won’t want to be with him even then.

At Snape’s passing, he doesn’t want to look at Harry to make sure that the point is getting across. He wants to look in Lily’s eyes one last time. His patronus, a doe, was because of Lily, and her eyes. Snape selfishly loved Lily, and was not a hero of any means. While I did feel bad that he died, it was not because he died a hero’s death of self sacrfice and greater good, it was because he was one of the characters that was gray. He was a little like the anti Sirius in that way. Snape was more black that white, whereas Sirius was more white than black, there was ambiguity in their characters and motviations than many of the other characters in the book.

Well I disargee - the emotions (sorrow) I felt last night pasted and are no longer vivid but I still can empathise with him a bit. I mean - man. He had a friendship and it is sad that he didn’t/couldn’t save it.

As for his wanting to save Lily without caring about Harry - I don’t agree with that, but I don’t see why it isn’t possible that he liked Harry towards the end.

Besides that I wanted to make the point that he probably had self esteem issues and such - and while that doesn’t excuse his being a Death Eater or anything like that it makes it easier to empathize with Snape - particularly the younger Snape who never fully fit in, had problems at home, wore odd clothes, had only one true friend, and who was ridiculed by Harry’s Father and his friends.

Catholig

 

[child_of_God85]

If any charactor in the series deserves to be called a selfish bully, it isn’t Snape. It’s James. He was just as bad, if not worse, than Draco Malfoy when he was in school. Snape reminds me of a tortured soul. I wouldn’t bring the racist bit into it, because Dumbledore was much worse than Snape was.

 

[adstrinity]

throws hands up in the air a-la Mcgonnagal around the Pensieve in the fourth HP movie

OldAgeGuru, Woodstock, I concur…VERILY!

BasBlu, exactly. You proved my point. Him looking him in the eyes couldn’t extract anything more out of him.

As much as I appreciate everybody wanting to force Snape into the valliant box, I cannot see it that way. No matter what I do, he doesn’t ultimately fit.

Few more things, though:

Remember the Snape/Neville relationship throughout the books? …And, in the end, who accidentally avenges Snape’s death?

AND, what kind of person is Snape who cannot let go of hating James Potter LONG after he is dead? What happens to people and the souls of people who continue to hate? As I recall from becomming Catholic, hating people until you die does not bode well for your judgement…

Also, as far as the next generation James, I feel that Dudley plays into that role because he was still a jerk at 15, but, it SEEMS that he is on the road do becoming a decent guy, despite his upbringing and his childhood actions.

 

[Melissa]

Also, with the unforgivable curses you have to mean it for it to be effective. I wonder, what would happen to someone if they were AK’d but the person doing it didn’t really want to?

Per Barty Crouch Jr. posing as Mad-Eye, the whole class could AK him w/o meaning it and he probably wouldn’t end up w/ a nosebleed. (GOF, p, 217)

And yes–the Riddles were AK’d and found “Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice! Still in their dinner things!” (GOF, p. 2)

There’s not quite as much detail on Frank Bryce’s position after he died, but “he was dead before he hit the floor”. (p. 17)

However, JK Rowling did say that she thought that Snape was a ‘horrible person’ (or something stronger–I can’t lay hands on the quote right now), and so–rotten person, but on the right side.

I’m also not sure that the ‘look at me’ wasn’t Snape wanting to communicate one more thing but dying first.

 

[S_V7]

I haven’t read this thread, because I’m still not finished w/ book 7, but when I do I’ll look forward to doing it.

My comments though - does anyone else feel sorry for Snape. You know regarding his once being best friends with Lily, and his love for her. How it all went down the drain. How he was prepared to camp outside the Gryffindor dormitory to make amends. I do - I feel really, really bad for him. I mean I don’t think I’ve ever lost a friend in that way, and definitely not anyone I loved (was infatuated with) but it seemed so very real. I wished he’d make amends. That he did more to preserve their friendship. That he camped out there every night - that he visited her folks over holidays. I mean - I’m just really, really sad about this.

Sorry that that is such a jumble up there - I never fully figured out the paragraph. And the thoughts being varied might even be split up into several small little ones…

I’m just about this. I really am. I’d like to read more about Snape & Lily now.

Catholig

I felt sorry for him, very. Although I don’t approve of many things he did, I found it very sad when I read about his life . I was hoping JKR would write more about his repentance and make him real ‘good guy’. It just seemed so tragic and to top it off, he wasn’t really in it for the ‘cause’ but for Lily (guess this is where the whole ‘love changes everything’ theme kicks in, too bad it didn’t pull through completely for him).

I just want to hug and smack him all at once

p.s I also wished he would of made amends with Lily and left his DE wannabe friends.