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Ahimsa
Guest
OK, post your reaction to The Deathly Hallows here, in this thread.
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Johndigger
Guest
Quite good. Kinda sad. I didnāt like all the Dumbledore bashing. I preferred him as a hero, albeit, a dead one.
JD
JD
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Rawb
Guest
Staid up from 2:30AM-10:00AM to read it. I thought it was good, but Iām not so sure about the whole ārushing into one big building after another and almost getting caughtā theme that ran through it all.
All in though, I think a fitting ending, and one with a huge Christian overtone IMO; Harry sacrifices himself, and Voldemortās spells can no longer harm those who Harry has ādiedā to save, and Harry comes back to life as the one who has conquered Death. Though many will see this as JKRās replacing Jesus with Harry, but theyāve always done that,
Iām glad McGonagall, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny survived. I was rooting for all of them (Iām a McGonagall fan. The scene where she led the charge of desks before her, yelling āCHARGE!ā was perfect).
All in though, I think a fitting ending, and one with a huge Christian overtone IMO; Harry sacrifices himself, and Voldemortās spells can no longer harm those who Harry has ādiedā to save, and Harry comes back to life as the one who has conquered Death. Though many will see this as JKRās replacing Jesus with Harry, but theyāve always done that,
Iām glad McGonagall, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny survived. I was rooting for all of them (Iām a McGonagall fan. The scene where she led the charge of desks before her, yelling āCHARGE!ā was perfect).
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bekalc
Guest
There was though one thing that troubled me about this bookā¦ Could Dumbledoreās death be considered euthansia?
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EileenR
Guest
I just registered for Catholic Answers Forums because I knew people would be talking about it here and my family hasnāt finished yet and wonāt for a bit.
All in all, I thought it was a very good book, but I have quite a few concerns about the moral character of the ending. Not Harryās actions. Harry was everything one could wish from a hero. Moral and self-sacrificing etc.
But Dumbledoreā¦ oh man, where does one start? To tell the truth, I liked the fact that he was shown to be so fallible a human being. What concerns me is that he perhaps was not shown as fallible enough.
Because that deal he had with Snape, no matter how well-intentioned it was, was morally wrong. Wrong for Dumbledore to request. Wrong for Snape to perform.
I had been holding off on pondering this question till the facts were all here, thinking that the facts might show either Snape didnāt actually kill Dumbledore or that there was something else operating, making Snapeās actions pass the law of Double Effect.
An example of the first would be Dumbledore actually dying of drinking the potion from the cave, and Snape just mimicing the curse. It was never very likely, but it was one possibility.
The other, for example, would be if Dumbledore was a host to a splinter of Voldemortās soul, and Snape was actually killing the splinter and Dumbledore died as a by-product. Again, not a likely plot turn, but I give it as an example of a moral scenario.
The scenario we got, however, is definitely not moral. Dumbledore requesting Snape to kill him so as to advance their plans is a gravely immoral act.One cannot commit an evil so that good may come from it.
The fact that Dumbledore is already dying of the curse on the ring-horcrux does not excuse his and Snapeās actions anymore than euthanasia is excused for the terminal ill.
Now, their relative culpabilities is a different matter. Obviously, their moral vision was a little blurred, to say the least. I think that flawed though both characters are, there is still a lot of virtue and self-sacrifice left in them. Speaking for a moment as if they were actual real people, they havenāt a hope for going immediately to heaven, but purgatoryās a good possibility.
Of course, they arenāt real people. The real question of the ending isnāt the state of their non-existent souls but whether the ending promotes to readers something evil as something good.
It seems to me that it could be read in both ways, and that plenty of people are bound to see Dumbledore and Snapeās little deal as āa good thing to do.ā And thatās disturbing. Itās always disturbing when immorality seems like morality to people. Itās particularly distressing to me, personally, as a longtime fan of the Harry Potter books, that people could take such a bad message from the books quite easily. In fact, very likely thatās the authorās view.
On the other hand, maybe not. If thereās one thing the book hammers in itās that Dumbledore isnāt right about everything. In fact, while Harry chooses still to love him and honour him - a good choice - one could say that he never outgrows his principle sin, the one that lead so tragically to the death of his poor sister. He renounces dreams of magical totalitarianism with his friend Grindelwald, but does he ever give up the idea of everything for the Greater Good?
Does he ever quit using people?
This vice isnāt just apparent in his use of Snape to kill himself. Itās from one end to another of his interactions with people. The way he manipulated Harry was inexcusable. And I think Harry knows that at points, even if Harry is forgiving. Dumbledore could never trust his friends and allies to know the truth, but continued to hide the truth at every point in order to force them down pre-determined paths.
The fact that after being forced down these paths Harry made the right decisions does not make Dumbledoreās actions right at all. It makes Harry virtuous. It makes Dumbledore complex and tragic. And it makes the book very ambiguous.
So, I think it depends on how you take Dumbledore. If you believe that all his plans and plots about Harry are meant to be good, itād be easy to see the book as immoral in many of its elements. If you see, like I do, Dumbledore as pretty messed up, and Harry as a better man than Dumbledore in the end, itās still a moral message.
Anyway, parents should talk to their children about the ending.
Iāll finish with a quote from Terry Pratchett, which has been in mind since finishing. Pratchett is not a Christian, but heās got good moral instincts very often.
All in all, I thought it was a very good book, but I have quite a few concerns about the moral character of the ending. Not Harryās actions. Harry was everything one could wish from a hero. Moral and self-sacrificing etc.
But Dumbledoreā¦ oh man, where does one start? To tell the truth, I liked the fact that he was shown to be so fallible a human being. What concerns me is that he perhaps was not shown as fallible enough.
Because that deal he had with Snape, no matter how well-intentioned it was, was morally wrong. Wrong for Dumbledore to request. Wrong for Snape to perform.
I had been holding off on pondering this question till the facts were all here, thinking that the facts might show either Snape didnāt actually kill Dumbledore or that there was something else operating, making Snapeās actions pass the law of Double Effect.
An example of the first would be Dumbledore actually dying of drinking the potion from the cave, and Snape just mimicing the curse. It was never very likely, but it was one possibility.
The other, for example, would be if Dumbledore was a host to a splinter of Voldemortās soul, and Snape was actually killing the splinter and Dumbledore died as a by-product. Again, not a likely plot turn, but I give it as an example of a moral scenario.
The scenario we got, however, is definitely not moral. Dumbledore requesting Snape to kill him so as to advance their plans is a gravely immoral act.One cannot commit an evil so that good may come from it.
The fact that Dumbledore is already dying of the curse on the ring-horcrux does not excuse his and Snapeās actions anymore than euthanasia is excused for the terminal ill.
Now, their relative culpabilities is a different matter. Obviously, their moral vision was a little blurred, to say the least. I think that flawed though both characters are, there is still a lot of virtue and self-sacrifice left in them. Speaking for a moment as if they were actual real people, they havenāt a hope for going immediately to heaven, but purgatoryās a good possibility.
Of course, they arenāt real people. The real question of the ending isnāt the state of their non-existent souls but whether the ending promotes to readers something evil as something good.
It seems to me that it could be read in both ways, and that plenty of people are bound to see Dumbledore and Snapeās little deal as āa good thing to do.ā And thatās disturbing. Itās always disturbing when immorality seems like morality to people. Itās particularly distressing to me, personally, as a longtime fan of the Harry Potter books, that people could take such a bad message from the books quite easily. In fact, very likely thatās the authorās view.
On the other hand, maybe not. If thereās one thing the book hammers in itās that Dumbledore isnāt right about everything. In fact, while Harry chooses still to love him and honour him - a good choice - one could say that he never outgrows his principle sin, the one that lead so tragically to the death of his poor sister. He renounces dreams of magical totalitarianism with his friend Grindelwald, but does he ever give up the idea of everything for the Greater Good?
Does he ever quit using people?
This vice isnāt just apparent in his use of Snape to kill himself. Itās from one end to another of his interactions with people. The way he manipulated Harry was inexcusable. And I think Harry knows that at points, even if Harry is forgiving. Dumbledore could never trust his friends and allies to know the truth, but continued to hide the truth at every point in order to force them down pre-determined paths.
The fact that after being forced down these paths Harry made the right decisions does not make Dumbledoreās actions right at all. It makes Harry virtuous. It makes Dumbledore complex and tragic. And it makes the book very ambiguous.
So, I think it depends on how you take Dumbledore. If you believe that all his plans and plots about Harry are meant to be good, itād be easy to see the book as immoral in many of its elements. If you see, like I do, Dumbledore as pretty messed up, and Harry as a better man than Dumbledore in the end, itās still a moral message.
Anyway, parents should talk to their children about the ending.
Iāll finish with a quote from Terry Pratchett, which has been in mind since finishing. Pratchett is not a Christian, but heās got good moral instincts very often.
And that, I think, is where Dumbledore went wrong.
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Summer_Girl
Guest
I was so happy that all of my hunches were right. I did get a little nervous there at the end when he was watching Snapes memories, and he got that final message from Dumbledore, but I just kept telling myself, āNo jumping to conclusions. Heās not gone until it says heās goneā I did cry of course when they had all the dead laid out it the great hall. And I laughed with glee when Mrs. Weasly, charged Bellatrix! The end chapter was also exactly what I was hoping for. I am very satisfied. It was just what I wanted to read!
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
My only contrbution is that If I were Ginny I would have gone with Severus Albus instead of Albus Severus although instead of ASP his initials would have been SAP
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Catholig
Guest
I havenāt read any of the spoilers nor do I really want to but Iām on chapter six (I think) and am feeling uncomfortable about the whole āhorcruxā bit - I mean that is really really scary.
Catholig
Catholig
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
I donāt understand the whole Harry Potter thing myself. Our store wasnāt allowed to sell any copies of the book before 12:01 am this morning and if we did we wouldāve been fined $15,000 per copy sold. Soā¦ they stayed with our armed security guard in his office till midnight. Whatās the big deal?
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bekalc
Guest
Yep, this is the one part of the book that makes me incredibly/incredibly uncomfortableā¦ Although I wonder how much of it is euthansia how much isnātā¦ Only because of the whole wand issueā¦ 2. Because of the fact that Dumbledore was worried about what would happen to Draco and his family if Dumbledore didnāt dieā¦ I must confess that when Narcissa begged Snape for help in Book 6, I felt really really bad for her. So a part of me can sort of understand Dumbledoreās reasoning. Iām dyingā¦ 2. Having me die know can save Dracoā¦ 3. Can ensure that Snape controls the wand etc, which can save more lifesā¦
But then when Dumbledore talks about how Snape is saving him from āpain and humilation,ā I get very uncomfortable. In a lot of ways though its fitting that the reason Snape dies is not because heās found to be a ātrue ally of Dumbledoreāsā but really because he killed Dumbledore, and Lord V thought it would help him control the wandā¦ One can argue that if Dumbledoreās plan had really āworkedā it would have been a disaster. And just realizing that made me feel a lot better!!!
I agree itās a childrenās book. Thatās quite frankly ridiculous. Especially since the book was already leaked on the internet, in itās entirety.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Personally, reading even a single sentence of any Harry Potter book gives me a head-ache. Iād rather read the Cliff Notes and other peopleās reviews. But I did read the last hundred pages or so of Book 7, just to say farewell to the Boy Who Lived.
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Cobbfmly
Guest
First, I have to admit I have not read the book. But, after reading the comments about Dumbledoreās death, esp. in relation to it being euthansia I wonder if Dumbledore had not been dying when he gave up his life for the plan, for others to live, influence who controlled the wand, etc, wouldnāt he be a type of martyr?
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AngelRose81
Guest
I read it from 3:00 pm yesterday to 10:30 pm and finished it. I thought it was great!! I want to go back and reread them all now. I thought the ending was very fitting. I loved the epilogue. Iām also kind of glad Snape turned out not to be bad and Iām even glad that the Malfoys turned out pretty good in the end too. But of course Iām glad Harry made it out ok.
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Meggie
Guest
:ehh: I still think he should of died for good to be a true epic hero
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Actress101
Guest
mm i finished!! i liked it, although, didnāt like the whole Ron/Hermione relationshipā¦especially since I donāt really see any sparks fly in the movies either.
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wisdom_3_5
Guest
I just finished! It was really good. I canāt believe how much I got ārightā!
Spoilers:
I knew Harry had a piece of LVās soul that could be separated from him. I thought it would be removed by a dementor though. I also **knew **Snape loved Lily. I was glad to get all the back story on that. I would have liked to see the correspondence between Petunia and DD.
I had no clue what to think about DDās past. It was interesting, but Iāll have to read it again more slowly to see how it all fits in to who DD was.
I was happy to see Ron and Hermione** finally** get together. JKR did a great job of dragging that out until the end.
I would have had Harry and Ginny have another kid & name him Severus though. And Lupinās kid would have been living with Harry before he went to Hogwarts.
All in all I thought it was very good. It seemed so intense, like they never had a ārestā like in LotR in Lothlorien, but that could be because I read it so fast.
Spoilers:
I knew Harry had a piece of LVās soul that could be separated from him. I thought it would be removed by a dementor though. I also **knew **Snape loved Lily. I was glad to get all the back story on that. I would have liked to see the correspondence between Petunia and DD.
I had no clue what to think about DDās past. It was interesting, but Iāll have to read it again more slowly to see how it all fits in to who DD was.
I was happy to see Ron and Hermione** finally** get together. JKR did a great job of dragging that out until the end.
I would have had Harry and Ginny have another kid & name him Severus though. And Lupinās kid would have been living with Harry before he went to Hogwarts.
All in all I thought it was very good. It seemed so intense, like they never had a ārestā like in LotR in Lothlorien, but that could be because I read it so fast.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Voldemort should have been depicted as more āhumanā. I mean, everybody loves *something *or someone, but Voldemort didnāt love anything, or anyone. It would have been more interesting, complex, and ārealā if he did in fact love, but loved in a way that had unfortunate consequences. Even Darth Vader had a glimmer of goodness.
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SeekerJen
Guest
I agree with the whole issue that Dumbledoreās request of Snape was not moral. But the entire book seemed to be hammering home the idea that Harry was the true hero, that he was the greatest wizard who ever lived, not Dumbledore. Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him because he knew he was already dying and wished not to suffer, something which Harry would never have asked of anyone. Harry was shown to be self-sacrificing and generally immune to the seduction of power, which Dumbledore himself admitted he was not. Was anyone else reminded very strongly of Frodo and Gandalf?
And how awesome was Neville Longbottom in book 7?
And how awesome was Neville Longbottom in book 7?
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Atheist2Theist
Guest
While I enjoyed it, I didnāt much care for Wizard Assisted Suicide. The excuse of Dumbledore to have Snape kill him to avoid humiliation just wasnāt moral and was just plain euthanasia. Whether you are going to die anyway does not change the moral weight of the situation.
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RobNY
Guest
As the locket dragged Harry to the bottom of the lake I couldnāt help but thinkā¦
Lord of the Rings.
All in all though, less people than I expected died. That is, of people including Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny.
I guess happy endings to stories are alright.
Lord of the Rings.
All in all though, less people than I expected died. That is, of people including Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny.
I guess happy endings to stories are alright.
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