Harry Potter Books

[pfoos]

pfoos, can you please provide a citation/link for the article that you copied in post 19?

Here’s a few:

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2002-02/witaly.html

dads.org/article.asp?artId=157

familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146

An interesting theory expressed on another forum pointed out that the divisions in Catholic and Christian circles between those who love Harry Potter and those who will have nothing to do with the books may come from their individual backgrounds with the occult. Those who may have been involved with the occult or are involved in deliverance ministries will have nothing to do with the books and those with little or no experience with the occult find the books to be entertaining and harmless. Could be. So for whatever it is worth, I have a background in both occult and deliverance ministry and will not allow the books or movies in my home. I have a very religious and quite innocent friend who absolutely loves the books and movies.

 

[the_nuge]

pfoos:

…deliverance ministry…

What is deliverance ministry?

 

[pfoos]

the_nuge:

What is deliverance ministry?

Those involved with helping individuals break free and be healed of demonic/evil presence in their lives. There are official exorcists (Priests only) and deliverance counselors (lay people) for discernment, prayer and fasting. Jesus said, some demons can only be expelled by community prayer and fasting.

 

[pfoos]

For excellent deliverance prayers and hedge prayers:

saint-mike.org

 

[the_nuge]

Shiann:

Harry specifically told Lupin and Sirius to not kill Pettigrew- when they were in the Shrieking Shack. Harry wanted Peter to be judged and sent to Azkaban.

I got the impression that Harry wanted Pettigrew alive so Sirius could be proven innocent, though arguably a freshly dead body could have done the same. I also got the impression Harry didn’t want Pettigrew killed so he could suffer from the Dementors like he caused Sirius to be… I’ll check this when I get to a copy of the book…

Shiann:

I’ll comment on this portion later this afternoon…

Okey-dokey

pfoos:

Those involved with helping individuals…

Thanks pfoos!

 

[Forest-Pine]

An article I wrote after reading the 6th book:

**From enthusiatic defender to reluctant detractor… My view of Harry Potter **

As a somewhat conservative (albeit moderate), and somewhat strict (albeit balanced) adult who has here-to-fore been among the millions of fans who purchase Harry Potter books on the first day of arrival (albeit not the first night), I find myself surprised to add to the cacophony of calls to not let children read the latest installment of the hugely popular series.

Let me explain. Some people are against the entire series as it sympathetically portrays a wizarding community. I find that excuse rubbish. Many Christian novels vividly portray fantasy worlds, complete with anthropomorphic mythological animals and magical realms. Having a fantasy setting is requisite for the book’s theme, and I would argue (much like Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood of Make Believe) it clearly separates the real world from the fantasy world. Others are against it because of the presence of Lord Voldemort, who is purely evil. Voldemort started off as a kid like anyone else–he even had more potential than average, really–and by circumstances, and more importantly, personal choice, he went down the path that led him to evilness. It clearly follows the Biblical story of Satan, who was an angel who chose to sin. It underlines our own ability to make personal choices and the need to use our talents for the glory of God. Most importantly, the entire story is unsympathetic (to say the least) to Lord Voldemort and has as a central theme that good always triumphs. Again, nothing wrong here from a Christian perspective. Some say that without having Christianity as a central and blatant theme to the books, the author is really promoting witchcraft, and even question the author’s religious beliefs. While I would find this argument more closely matched with Madonna’s latest children’s book, I feel the need to point out the presence of Christmas in each Harry Potter installment. The tone of the book changes to one of hope and happiness, family, and giving during that time of year. It is clearly a Christian Christmas, not a secular one. Further, there is not a single religion today which acts along the lines of the witchcraft portrayed in the books. Wicca is a modern-day resurgence of nature worship which takes many forms, but not one in which wizards can fly on broomsticks or make liquid luck. Satanism is the worship of Satan, who they do not see as an anti-Christ but more a nature-based deity who is free to indulge in whatever pleasures he wishes. The form of witchcraft present in Harry Potter is one that is only found in one other place in history: literature. It opens dialogue between parents and children about wishes, dreams, fantasy, reality, good, evil, history, sociology, and more. Not to mention that we have children lining up begging their parents, not for video games, not for electronics, not for some piece of trash gadget–but for books, books, and more books! They start with Potter, but then they branch out for more, more, and more! What a perfect opportunity to not only influence your child through the suggestion of wholesome books, but to also engage her in conversation and to have the family united in a common, enthusiastic aim. No, it is not for any of these reasons that I am disappointed in the latest installment of the series.

<cont’d below>

 

[Forest-Pine]

<cont’d from above>

I’ve long wondered whether the popularity of the series before its completion would affect the author, and therefore the story. The sixth book confirmed my fears. Written at an older age level (previous books were something around 9-12 whereas this one is something like 12-15, to be able to accommodate for the readership’s increase in age since the last book’s release), this book delves into relationships, death, and personal choices. I don’t have a problem with that. Unfortunately, it was written SO poorly that it is almost not worth reading.

The entire thing reads like a movie manuscript. (That isn’t a good thing.) Details are not given from the perspective of a READER, but of a VIEWER. It almost reads as if it is 600-something pages of director’s notes to an actor. Booooring. Then, to top it off, Rowling doesn’t want to give away anything until the very end as she wants to keep you guessing right up to the last minute. What that makes for is a very long, monotonous, boring book until you get to the end and are smacked with everything right at once. So how does she keep the average 15-year-old entertained through the first 500 pages? She fills them with curse words, petty bickering, “obscene gestures,” and constant, CONSTANT “snogging.” (Which, in case you didn’t know, is the British word for making out.) Rowling describes the snogging in details that are really quite disgusting. It is the equivalent of adult fiction writers, such as Phillipa Gregory the historical fiction author, including sex scenes in their pages to keep the readership interested. It is a literary trick that I have absolutely no respect for–you have nothing better to keep me interested than a couple of 17-year-olds all over each other like eels around every corner? On top of the constant cursing, kissing, bickering, and flicking each other off, there is plenty of underage drinking (which at several points in time is expounded upon to make it sound even more attractive). Keeping in mind that it was clearly written with the goal of being turned into a movie, it disturbs me even more the visual pictures she created.

When it comes down to it, this was the worst installment yet in the series. I do feel a need to continue through to the end, and will most likely read the seventh book within days of its release as well. My advice to any parents out there who have children in the middle of the series that feel just as called to continue through to the end: read it with them. Every page, every snog, every drink, every argument. Use the opportunity to discuss your family values compared to society’s current acceptance, to ask your child how closely this portrays his or her school day and classmates, to explain the underlying reasons that we must respect our bodies and each other, ways to work on conflict, people they can trust, and so on. Don’t make them lose the love of reading that brought them to this point! It isn’t lecture time! But do make sure that they aren’t left alone to work it out on their own. You might get some insight into your children’s minds that you never had before. Hopefully they will get some insight from yours as well.

 

[rocklobster]

Harry Potter is fiction presented as fiction. That’s why I have no problem with it. The Da Vinci Code however, is fiction presented as fact. That’s why I despise it. That’s the difference!

 

[Ruthmary]

Remember that the fruit Eve ate appeared to be very innocent and sweet, but it brought with it pain, death, and misery for the whole rest of humanity. Read about King Saul’s consulting of the witch of Endor. When the devil tempts us he doesn’t appear as evil. He doesn’t want to scare us away. We’ve been conditioned by our culture to accept too much as “innocent” and we don’t have consideration for how things affect others. If nothing else, perhaps Harry Potter will act as an innoculation against the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I recommend an audio tape set “There’s Something About Harry” – a discussion between Patrick Madrid, Toni Collins and Michael O’Brien. One thing Toni Collins points out is that people start out taking drugs “just for fun”.

As Catholics we need to remember that we look to the Pope for a proper interpretation of events in light of the Bible and Jesus’ teachings. We should not take lightly any recommendation he makes.

God bless,
Ruthmary

 

[rocklobster]

Ruthmary:

As Catholics we need to remember that we look to the Pope for a proper interpretation of events in light of the Bible and Jesus’ teachings. We should not take lightly any recommendation he makes.

I’d take it more seriously if he’d actuallyread the books. And btw, it’s not like it’s an ex cathedra statement. Geez, the way some of you act, it’s almost like the Pope reinstated the Index.

 

[Ruthmary]

rocklobster:

I’d take it more seriously if he’d actuallyread the books. And btw, it’s not like it’s an ex cathedra statement. Geez, the way some of you act, it’s almost like the Pope reinstated the Index.

Sometimes I think he should. We could use some guidance on what is true to Catholic doctrine.

…and how do you know the Pope didn’t read the book? If you want to blow his opinion away, I can’t stop you. But where did you get that idea that people can’t have opinions on things they haven’t personally experienced? Would eat an arsenic sandwich in order to find out for yourself it it’s really poisonous, or would you be willing to take someone else’s opinion on it?

 

[rocklobster]

Ruthmary:

Sometimes I think he should. We could use some guidance on what is true to Catholic doctrine.

…and how do you know the Pope didn’t read the book? If you want to blow his opinion away, I can’t stop you. But where did you get that idea that people can’t have opinions on things they haven’t personally experienced? Would eat an arsenic sandwich in order to find out for yourself it it’s really poisonous, or would you be willing to take someone else’s opinion on it?

So I take it you would favor excommunication and burning people at the stake too?

 

[Emly]

The turth is, you do not have to read the books. Someone can tell you what their like. I however, ahber ead the books, and I rather liked them.

I think a eprson is intittled to their opinion… adn I beleive they are both structured on both sides. nOw, once someone did say thaat Harry Potter did nto have coniquences, well Harry’s brakeing the rules in book 5 did cause someones death.

IHas anyone reas the article “Harry Potter vs. Gandalf
An in-depth analysis of the literary use of magic in the works of J. K. Rowling, J. R. R. Tolkien, and C. S. Lewis”

It is an in depth look at Harry’s trubles. Its kind of long but the arthur knows what he is tlaking about. It does comaprea lot of stuff with Mr. Lewis and mr.Tolen, but it does give some insights to Harry’s “hidges”. But it is a matrue aticle in the since…well you’ll have to read ti.

decentfilms.com/commentary/magic.html

 

[bquinnan]

mlchance:

Here’s an apparently well-kept secret: There isn’t a single bit of actual magic* anywhere in a single Harry Potter book. As an example of what really happens when people think material such as Harry Potter provides “delicious short cuts to power,” I submit the following website: Spellcasting 101: Don’t Try This at Home.

Your write-up is hilarious!

 

[bquinnan]

the_nuge:

First let me say that it’s not the “magic” the “witches” or the “wizards”. It has to do with Harry and the increasingly dark tone of the novels.

There is no redemption in the Harry Potter books. There is only rivalry and revenge. Harry to me seems to be not about justice but about getting even. And Harry is always right to do what he does, no matter what rules are broken, and no matter who gets hurt. All authority in the books (including, ultimately, Dumbledore) is wrong. The trust Dumbledore had was proven misguided and the one character that could have provided Rowling with a theme of redemption and forgiveness has been proven evil after all. These “themes” I can handle and digest properly. I don’t think my kids can, at least not until they are older.

I have related concerns about the series. When it comes to magic, it is basically understood in the books that you are either born a wizard or a witch or aren’t – magic power is not something the reader is led to believe they can seek out, as long as they tap into the right sources.

On the other hand, Harry accomplishes his objectives with power and deceit. He does show courage and loyalty, but he will lie to teachers – even the just ones – sneak around with his Marauder’s Map (which requires him to state, “I solemnly swear that I am up to no good”) and spy on people from under his invisibility cloak.

I’ve been reading “The Chronicles of Narnia” to my kids, and one thing that has struck me is how much more character matters in the Narnia books than in Harry Potter.

Still, I do think the negative aspects of Harry Potter can be worked out with thoughtful discussions about the book, if parents make a point of it, and the children are old enough.

 

[bquinnan]

rocklobster:

So I take it you would favor excommunication and burning people at the stake too?

How on earth do you jump from the idea that a person can have an opinion on a book they haven’t read (based on what they’ve been told about the book from sources they trust) to presuming that they favor burning people at the stake?

Further, do you even know what excommunication means? The Church will still excommunicate people as deemed appropriate, and it doesn’t require that anyone be physicaly harmed in any way.

 

[Emly]

I am only guessing, but young peoples appeal to the boosk mihgt be because it does in some parts like relations between girls and guys, relate to peopels problems in everyday life. I am not defending anything, but thats jsut an idea

I for one read the first story of Cs. Lewis’ series. It was kind of intersting in the beginning, and it was great how they dealed with character but apart of me jus sighed and said, “nothing happned” lol. Its not Tolken, but its decent work of ficten, and more mroal then Harry.

 

[surfinpure]

Emly:

I am only guessing, but young peoples appeal to the boosk mihgt be because it does in some parts like relations between girls and guys, relate to peopels problems in everyday life. I am not defending anything, but thats jsut an idea

I for one read the first story of Cs. Lewis’ series. It was kind of intersting in the beginning, and it was great how they dealed with character but apart of me jus sighed and said, “nothing happned” lol. Its not Tolken, but its decent work of ficten, and more mroal then Harry.

Keep in mind that Narnia targets a younger audience than Harry (although I believe we will see a very good turnout of all ages when the first Narnia movie is released in December).

I have not read any “professional” literary criticism comparing the works of Lewis to those of Rowling, but I have read enough of each author to draw some decent conclusions. I agree entirely with “bquinnan” in that character matters so much more in Lewis’s writing. While I find very admirable role models in the four siblings of Narnia, I am often sorely disappointed in how Harry and his friends treat each other and respond to authority. I am currently in Goblet of Fire and have found that no matter what Harry’s past is, I don’t like the kid very much. He sulks, he’s selfish, he snaps at his friends, he longs for revenge, and he has very little regard for authority. I’ve often wondered why his friends happen to like him at all. Hermione, I am thankful to find, shows a great degree of selflessness, care, concern for rules, and hard work. Ron seems to be loyal, but also petty and mischievous.

I don’t personally see how people can find any connection between the Rowling books and the masterpieces of Lewis and Tolkien. *One of these things is not like the others… *

 

[Emly]

The article was responding to the problem when people say taht CS Lewis and Tolken salso used magic. The arthur was tring to explan how Tolken and Lewis use it in completely different contexts such as in Potter, they do illegal things or somthing such asa that.

To go back to the question of redeeming, in book 3, I would point out, one of the characters actions in not forgiving. Snape can’t get over what happened 20 eyars ago, thsu showinghow ahte and recenge I supose, can make you go crazy.

 

[rocklobster]

Emly:

The article was responding to the problem when people say taht CS Lewis and Tolken salso used magic. The arthur was tring to explan how Tolken and Lewis use it in completely different contexts such as in Potter, they do illegal things or somthing such asa that.

To go back to the question of redeeming, in book 3, I would point out, one of the characters actions in not forgiving. Snape can’t get over what happened 20 eyars ago, thsu showinghow ahte and recenge I supose, can make you go crazy.

Yeah it sure is interesting that people will let CS Lewis and Tolkien get away with it but not Rowling. It’s like Welborn said, it’ll be VERY ironic when Harry Potter is seen in the same contexts.
And the reason I said that line about being burned at the stake was to “demonstrate absurdity by being absurd” (to quote Rush Limbaugh). I wanted to show just how extreme book burning is. It’s like the old saying posted elsewhere “After burning books comes burning people.” It’s no different.
I grew up reading Lewis and Tolkein. I also watched Thundercats, a cartoon brimming with magic. I read Hans CHRISTIAN Andersen, who also used lots of magic. The point: I’m still a Catholic.