Harry Potter - My problem with it

[Transformer]

Oh boy, another Harry Potter thread.

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First, to Nickkname:

Let me begin by addressing the points I find least reasonable. First: the magic in Harry Potter has absolutely nothing to do with the occult. Real world occult magic consists entirely of contacting demons for supernatural help. It is something like an immoral, unnatural alternative to prayer. Magic in Harry Potter has nothing whatsoever to do with demons: it is merely a part of the natural world. “Magic”–as the word is used in the Bible–does not even make an appearance in Harry Potter. Quite literally, all Harry Potter magic has in common with occult magic is the name “magic.”

You are mistaken on a few points about magic in Harry Potter as well. First, love is not magic in Harry Potter; love is love, and magic is magic. Secondly, no distinction is drawn in Harry Potter between “good” magic and “evil” magic: magic is merely a force of the natural world, and how it’s used determines its morality.

Finally, homosexual sex makes no appearance in Harry Potter. The only relationship mentioned in the books that might have involved gay sex ends in murder and one of the books’ most beloved characters living celibately for the rest of his life.

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To address a few other specific points brought up by other posters:

The spells in Harry Potter cannot be actual occult spells. All of them are mangled Latin phrases from the mind of JK Rowling, and I have never in my life seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.

On the topic of Harry using torture (the cruciatus curse): The only instance I can remember in detail of Harry using the cruciatus curse is his use of it on Bellatrix Lestrange at the end of book 5. In that instance, his use of it is certainly portrayed in a negative light. He uses it purely out of anger, he’s egged on by one of the most morally depraved characters in the book, and it turns out he doesn’t “have it in him” (in his loving heart) anyway. Could you refresh my memory on when else Harry uses the curse?

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In my next post I’ll try to address the more general issue of Harry and friends’ disobedience, and I’ll respond to Tantum ergo’s post.

 

[Eliza10]

Reading some of the responses here is just plain scary. These are works of fiction. Good fiction. Not pure evil. My gosh folks, get a grip. Lemme guess; The same folks who are against the HP books are the same one’s who grew up watching Bugs and the Road Runner, and needed some type of psycho therapy once reaching adult hood in order to stay in touch with reality.

?What?

 

[Brendan]

If a person says, “Well, I liked the first books and descriptions of Hogwarts are well written but there were a couple of scenes that I had trouble with”. . .

That is actually where I am. It is an engaging story, and overall, not too bad morally. But there certainly ARE scenes that go clearly against Catholic moral teachings.

That is why I objected so strongly to bpbasilphx when he wrote…

In my opinion, they are the most morally positive books for children ever…

That’s rather extreme in light of what I have pointed out.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
What if Rawlings came out with an additional book.**

Since Roling has make it plain she is NOT writing any more HP books, your scenario has no basis.

 

[Transformer]

I think the arguments about Harry’s disobedience are overdrawn. There are many cases in Harry Potter where Harry disobeys legitimate authority and evil naturally results. Take a look at book 1 in which Harry sneaks off in the night under his new invisibility cloak and starts to get drawn into the seduction of the Mirror of Erised.

There are other cases in Harry Potter when Harry’s disobedience is absolutely warranted and moral. Sometimes following the spirit of the law does necessitate breaking the letter of the law. This occurs in book 3, when the legitimate authority absolutely will not listen to reason and render justice for Sirius Black, and so Harry and Hermione break the rules in response.

To those arguing that Harry Potter advocates using evil means to achieve good ends: could you be more specific? I’m not sure exactly what situations you’re referring to.

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There are situations in Harry Potter in which a character does something morally questionable or even clearly wrong, and the act is not portrayed in a negative light. I can see a few instances of the lead characters’ disobedience that are questionable, and the killing of one character at his request in the end of book 6 could be a stumbling block to someone who struggles with end-of-life moral issues. But for heaven’s sake, these occurrences are so rare and so totally swallowed up in Harry Potter’s overwhelmingly traditional Christian worldview that it’s difficult for me even to find them. I can think of very few sophisticated children’s novels that include fewer morally questionable scenes. I am absolutely convinced that if Harry Potter did not involve “magic,” no orthodox Christian would even bat an eyelash at it in terms of its moral content.

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Tantum ergo:

I see Harry Potter as explicitly Christian. The worldview presented in the books is certainly a reflection of classical Christian morality: good really exists, evil really exists, no compromise between good and evil is possible, good is stronger than evil. The 7th book quotes the Bible twice. The parallels between Harry’s and Christ’s sacrifice are very extensive. Traditional Christ symbols literally saturate the series: there are several in every book. Many more arguments like there are in John Granger’s Looking for God in Harry Potter. Some of his points are overdrawn, but most are dead on, and his fundamental thesis is extremely solid: Harry Potter is explicitly Christian.

I also believe that Harry Potter is excellent literature. Its symbolism is staggering; honestly on the level of Moby D*ck. Its characters are not realistic per se, but they are exceptionally rich and dynamic. Its plots are incredibly tightly woven. The best example of this is the 5th book, in which absolutely everything contributes to Harry’s being spiritually broken down and builds up to the perfect climax of Sirius’ death. All in all, Harry Potter is a spectacular example of what children’s literature should be: it succeeds at presenting a great deal of literary depth in such a way that even children can “see” the brilliance.

Now, of course this doesn’t give me the right to dismiss criticisms of Harry Potter on principle, or to attack people who don’t share my enthusiasm. I should always be ready to take challenges to heart and change my views to match the evidence. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the middle ground is the right ground. Harry Potter seems to me to be explicitly Christian and excellent morally, for the reasons I gave above.

 

[JReducation]

Find a classic with an absence of good and evil.

1. Romeo and Juliet
2. The Man of La Mancha
3. Cinderella
4. Pride and Prejudice
5. Master and Servant
6. Gone With The Wind
7. Dante’s Trilogy
8. Snow White
9. Mother Goose

10.Catcher In the Rye

and the list goes on and on and on.

Maybe, we Catholics are starting to think like Fundamentalist Protestants. No, the Church is not going to come out with an official statement on Harry, because the Church has more important issues to focus on.

Why must we always want the Church to make official statements about everything in the world? Each papacy has its focus, because every pope is human and has his interests and issues that he see that need to be addressed. The current pope is interested in reason and faith. He’s a theologian and a professor. He is interested in a very high level of theologial and philosophical thought and topics. Harry does not fit into high level theology and philosophy.

If we’re going to be comfortable with this papacy and the Church of today, we have to be comfortable with discussing and understanding those concepts and issues at the level of this papacy.

Fraternally,

JR

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Roza]

Maybe, we Catholics are starting to think like Fundamentalist Protestants.

Yeah, I was in the AoG for a time, I was a cradle Catholic left, dabbled, was delivered, and took me awhile but Jesus got me back into the Church He founded.

Being one that was looking at wicca a titch, one that dabbled with spells a titch… how one can compare ‘Catcher in the Rye’ to Harry Potter? I mean, listen to the audio of the woman that came out of this all… ok… IF someone’s faith is strong and well grounded then OK but still, to me, just the 10 mins I saw of one Harry Potter movie it’s Wicca 101. Now, if it was about how to make acid or LSD or how to poison someone everyone would be totally against it but the subtly of new age deceptions, I’m sorry.

Yeah, I guess I qualified as a fundamentalist but I also qualify as an ex-new ager and yeah I did candle spells and read on wicca for the solitary practitioner… so it’s wrong to be opposed to things that can pull those less grounded in their faith away from the Church and God? Maybe a little poison is ok, as long as you don’t take the whole bottle? Ok, that’s exaggerating but can you show me Jesus in Harry Potter? Or Mary? Any lessons that will enhance my growth in my Catholic journey amidst the spells?

 

[JReducation]

Yeah, I was in the AoG for a time, I was a cradle Catholic left, dabbled, was delivered, and took me awhile but Jesus got me back into the Church He founded.

Being one that was looking at wicca a titch, one that dabbled with spells a titch… how one can compare ‘Catcher in the Rye’ to Harry Potter? I mean, listen to the audio of the woman that came out of this all… ok… IF someone’s faith is strong and well grounded then OK but still, to me, just the 10 mins I saw of one Harry Potter movie it’s Wicca 101. Now, if it was about how to make acid or LSD or how to poison someone everyone would be totally against it but the subtly of new age deceptions, I’m sorry.

Yeah, I guess I qualified as a fundamentalist but I also qualify as an ex-new ager and yeah I did candle spells and read on wicca for the solitary practitioner… so it’s wrong to be opposed to things that can pull those less grounded in their faith away from the Church and God? Maybe a little poison is ok, as long as you don’t take the whole bottle? Ok, that’s exaggerating but can you show me Jesus in Harry Potter? Or Mary? Any lessons that will enhance my growth in my Catholic journey amidst the spells?

Harry allegedly has wicca, what does Cinderella have? Romeo and Juliet has social discrimination and suicide. Snow White has attempted premediated murder. Gone With the Wind has love of power over spouse. Man From La Mancha has rape and prostitution. Dante’s trilogy has almost every kind of sin imaginable.

The point is that any book that we read is going to have something that we can call contrary to Christian morals, if we look deep enough. Does that mean that we stop reading? Maybe it means that we take literature at face value and teach people how to read it correctly.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[coleraine]

Yo…its just a book. Its just a fairy tail about wizards and dragons and the such, like LOTR. It has some good values to it, it shows how good triumphs over evil. For me, it was a process of growing up. The series starts of childish, mystical, and adventurous, something little kids like. It gets more serious as the series progresses. And at the end, it is not magic that wins, and defeats an evil. it is love, and i think that is a very good message.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Yeah, I was in the AoG for a time, I was a cradle Catholic left, dabbled, was delivered, and took me awhile but Jesus got me back into the Church He founded.

Being one that was looking at wicca a titch, one that dabbled with spells a titch… how one can compare ‘Catcher in the Rye’ to Harry Potter? I mean, listen to the audio of the woman that came out of this all… ok… IF someone’s faith is strong and well grounded then OK but still, to me, just the 10 mins I saw of one Harry Potter movie it’s Wicca 101. Now, if it was about how to make acid or LSD or how to poison someone everyone would be totally against it but the subtly of new age deceptions, I’m sorry.

Yeah, I guess I qualified as a fundamentalist but I also qualify as an ex-new ager and yeah I did candle spells and read on wicca for the solitary practitioner… so it’s wrong to be opposed to things that can pull those less grounded in their faith away from the Church and God? Maybe a little poison is ok, as long as you don’t take the whole bottle? Ok, that’s exaggerating but can you show me Jesus in Harry Potter? Or Mary? Any lessons that will enhance my growth in my Catholic journey amidst the spells?

It is absolutely, objectively, undeniably true that real-world occult magic is in no way present in the Harry Potter series. As Transformer said, the name “magic” is really all they have in common. It’s pure fantasy with no invocation whatsoever.

And yes, I can show you Jesus in Harry Potter. Many of the books end with a climax in which a symbolic Christ figure (i.e. phoenix, stag, hippogriff, etc.) comes to Harry’s aid.

I recommend the book Looking for God in Harry Potter by John Granger.

 

[Roza]

I never saw Transformer talking about spells. Spells work, I was away from Catholicism for about 20 yrs, not bragging about it, not happy about it but had my days of dabbling in junk I shouldn’t have. Yeah, if someone is well grounded in their faith they should be ok with watching/reading Harry Potter but if someone isn’t… it can be a part of the slippery slope.

Search on Harry Potter on St. Michael’s Call

In my dumb dabbling days, and NO I don’t do this anymore… I did candle spells and YES they worked! I did them several times. I used to give readings. I’m out of that all. My friends from those days I don’t hear from anymore accept for 2, old co-workers of mine and pretty much dont speak to them. I still have family (probably) that are in this junk.

 

[Roza]

The Magical Journey:

Symbols of Transformation and the Occult Foundations of the Harry Potter Books
By Ken McCormick

        Certain Christians have publicly criticized J. K. Rowling’s “Harry Potter” series of children’s books as being founded in occultism.  This charge has met with general incredulity and outright ridicule from literary critics and the vast majority of the public.  I believe it is possible to show, however, that the criticism is not only quite correct, but that the truth of it should be fairly obvious to anyone who will compare the books to the writings of certain occult religions.  Several such religions seem to have gained considerable momentum from a connection with the feminist movement, and so the Harry Potter books might properly be seen in the context of the ongoing “culture wars.”

Visit link above for the rest.

 

[cyberwolf001]

I do not think there is anything wrong with Harry really.

Yes some pagans have done stuff like this I is a linky!

But you know what, Pagans have just as much right to promote there faith as Catholics do theres. After all how many Christian authors write books meant to lead Children to Christ aimed at sneaking the gospel message to children of nonbelievers.

Seems if Christians can write stuff aimed at kids why can’t the pagans?

An if Christians can use pop culture to promote there faith why can’t the pagans?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
But you know what, Pagans have just as much right to promote there faith as Catholics do theres. After all how many Christian authors write books meant to lead Children to Christ aimed at sneaking the gospel message to children of nonbelievers.**

J. K. Rowling is a Protestant Christian. Did you know that?

 

[cyberwolf001]

Why yes, yes I did. Hence the part about Pagans using Pop Culture.

Did you see the link I put and notice that this Grey School which is aimed at teaching young people 11-17 and adults the art of the occult is in it’s founders own words meant to be a Real Life Hogwarts?

That’s why I said there is nothing wrong with Pagans using pop culture to promote themselves or for that using there own stuff.

 

[Roza]

I only saw 10 mins of 1 movie and I had to leave, it was too close to the ‘real thing’ for me.

I was never in a coven but did dabble with spells, did dabble in tarot but never really got into it.

On their site;

The Challenge to Christianity

As to the overall size of the witchcraft or Neopagan movement, it is probably worth considering the fact that Barnes and Noble booksellers estimates that there are about 10 million people who regularly purchase Neopagan literature of one type or another. Anyone who thinks that because these religions do not presently speak for a large proportion of the population as adherents, they are insignificant in their influence ought to consider the example of the history of Neopaganism in Germany. Neopaganism as a major movement was rooted in nineteenth century Romanticism, but was most clearly seen in the Volkisch movement of the 1890’s. By that time, the Romantic fascination with biological heritage, especially in the noble blood or special blood of the individual, had become transmuted into the mystical allegiance to the blood of the whole people, or volk. The Teutonic gods were thought by many to be the proper spirit of the volk. Sun worship, as exemplified by the primacy of Wotan, became a large element of the Volkisch movement and later Neopaganism.

To make it clear, Catholicism never sees the Mother of God, Blessed Virgin Mary, as being a ‘goddess’. That was the one thing that kept me avoiding ‘Christian Wicca’ in my strayed away searching days. Thank God I’m home!

Oh yeah, pagans/iwccans promoting their religion… pentagrams in graveyards now, recognized by our armed forces as a valid religion… do you think 100+ years ago Catholics would have accepted such occult nonsense let alone let children watch it and claim it safe?

Yeah, spells work but where is that power from ? Definitely isn’t God.

 

[Roza]

And sorry for my comment regarding the URL or hyperlink, I pasted this. URLs do show fine here. I apologize for that. Maybe 100 yrs ago wasn’t going back far enough, maybe 200, 300 years ago, would Catholics have accepted things like Harry Potter… or think of the saints. Could you picture St. Therese having anything good to say about casting spells? Just a little poison is OK? I don’t think so. Or is it more a stance of show the kids what they can do with occult powers and let them figure it out on their own?

 

[Roza]

Early Church Fathers, were they fundamentalists in 400 A.D.?
Quotations from the Early Church Fathers on Abortion

The Apostolic Constitutions
“Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . *f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed” (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400] )*From Athanasius

§48. Further Facts. Christian Continence of Virgins and Ascetics. Martyrs. The Power of the Cross Against Demons and Magic. Christ by His Power Shews Himself More Than a Man, More Than a Magician, More Than a Spirit. For All These are Totally Subject to Him. Therefore He is the Word of God.

Now these arguments of ours do not amount merely to words, but have in actual experience a witness to their truth. 2. For let him that will, go up and behold the proof of virtue in the virgins of Christ and in the young men that practise holy chastity(150) , and the assurance of immortality in so great a band of His martyrs. 3. And let him come who would test by experience what we have now said, and in the very presence of the deceit of demons and the imposture of oracles and the marvels of magic, let him use the Sign of that Cross which is laughed at among them, and he shall see how by its means demons fly, oracles cease, all magic and witchcraft is brought to nought.

1. Who, then, and how great is this Christ, Who by His own Name and Presence casts into the shade and brings to nought all things on every side, and is alone strong against all, and has filled the whole world with His teaching? Let the Greeks tell us, who are pleased to laugh, and blush not. 5. For if He is a man, how then has one man exceeded the power of all whom even themselves bold to be gods, and convicted them by His own power of being nothing? But if they call Him a magician, how can it be that by a magician all magic is destroyed, instead of being confirmed? For if He conquered particular magicians, or prevailed over one only, it would be proper for them to hold that He excelled the rest by superior skill; 6. but if His Cross has won the victory over absolutely all magic, and over the very name of it, it must be plain that the Saviour is not a magician, seeing that even those demons who are invoked by the other magicians fly from Him as their Master.

1. Who He is, then, let the Greeks tell us, whose only serious pursuit is jesting. Perhaps they might say that He, too, was a demon, and hence His strength. But say this as they will, they will have the laugh against them, for they can once more be put to shame by our former proofs. For how is it possible that He should be a demon who drives the demons out? 8. For if He simply drove out particular demons, it might property be held that by the chief of demons He prevailed against the lesser, just as the Jews said to Him when they wished to insult Him. But if, by His Name being named,all madness of the demons is uprooted and chased away, it must be evident that here, too, they are wrong, and that our Lord and Saviour Christ is not, as they think, some demoniacal power. 9. Then, if the Saviour is neither a man simply, nor a magician, nor some demon, but has by His own Godhead brought to nought and cast into the shade both the doctrine found in the poets and the delusion of the demons and the wisdom of the Gentiles, it must be plain and will be owned by all, that this is the true Son of God, even the Word and Wisdom and Power of the Father froth the beginning. For this is why His works also are no works of man, but are recognised to be above man, and truly God’s works, both from the facts in themselves, and from comparison with [the rest of] mankind.

I guess my concern would be, since wicca is becoming more accepted and seemingly ‘normal’ to run into these days, as long as children KNOW, spell casting is forbidden and wrong.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t understand the preocupation with Harry Potter. In my long life, I have encountered less people engaged with spells and encantations and many more involved in adultery, violence, theft, discrimination, sex outside of marriage, power struggles, injustice and more.

These are all present in adult and children’s literature. I don’t see anyone saying that we should take these classics off the shelves or that they should not be read in literature classes in schools.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Roza]

Not preoccupied but showing caution against witchcraft existed long ago. I have friends still in the NAM and I’m praying for them to leave it all behind. I think about things that drew my attention before I left home and stopped going to Mass… all of it was new age related and I didn’t see it being talked about as a big problem. So, I went with new age. Hoping to prevent another child going through a 20 yrs sidetrack of wanting to dabble… or perhaps it’s best to just let them make their own mistakes like we all do and find out for themselves? Perhaps