Harry Reid: We’ll shut down government before we shut down Planned Parenthood funding

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gamewell45 said:
Its not relevant since the KKK historically has not provided anything to the public other then racial bigotry. The same goes for the neo-nazi’s. Both you and ishii will have to come up with better examples that are relevant to the topic at hand.
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In their wildest dreams the KKK could not have done more harm to minorities than PP has.

I am sure that no example will suffice for you as you seem to subscibe to the “greater good” theory-that is free PAP smears for poor women outweighs 400,000 dead children a year. And of course Planned Parenthood also provides sterlizations and contraceptives to further advance their goal of limiting the number of undesirables born into this workld.
 
Suudy said:
Hypothetical examples demonstrate principles. If the principle is sound, it applies even to hypotheticals. Your refusal to address the principle involved only points to your selective thinking.
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Unfortunatley your principals on this particular issue are, in my view,unsound.
 
gamewell45 said:
Unfortunatley your principals on this particular issue are, in my view,unsound.
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How so? Can you give details?

Edit: I’ll restate it concisely and you can tell me where I’ve gone wrong.

Providing government funding to any organization that performs any evil practice, even if they have any other neutral or good practices, is wrong. This is because of the fungible nature of money that diverts funds from neutral or good practices to the evil practices.
 
gamewell45 said:
I think that there are numerous people who would vehmently disagree with you on this.
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Only those who did not realize that 40% of the children Planned Parenthood kills are African-American. Planned Parenthood kills more African Americans in a month than the KKK has killed in his entire existence.

Were you not aware that 40% of the children aborted in this country are African-American? Are you not aware that Planned Parenthood was formed specifically to limit the number of black people in the country? How many free Pap smears will they have to give to mitigate this?
 
Suudy said:
How so? Can you give details?

Edit: I’ll restate it concisely and you can tell me where I’ve gone wrong.

Providing government funding to any organization that performs any evil practice, even if they have any other neutral or good practices, is wrong. This is because of the fungible nature of money that diverts funds from neutral or good practices to the evil practices.
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I think you went wrong where you’ve maintained that the funds would be “fungible”; I don’t believe this to be true; furthermore I’m looking at this from a practicable standpoint, as opposed from a religious standpoint. Some here have stated that they are viewing it as a moral standpoint; thats fine but unfortunatley I believe that cutting funding will hurt and possibly in some cases cause deaths.

In the case of funding for abortions, what I have maintained all along is that the government should mandate that no federal funds are to be used for abortions; rather, let the person or insurance companies pay for it. The government can regulate and approve how the fundings are paid out.

Many people in here want the organization to simply evaporate; its not going to happen, especially since, aside from abortions (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try), they do a lot of good for society. Better to get rid of government-paid abortions and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are pregnant.

Finis
 
estesbob said:
Were you not aware that 40% of the children aborted in this country are African-American? Are you not aware that Planned Parenthood was formed specifically to limit the number of black people in the country? How many free Pap smears will they have to give to mitigate this?
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To me race is not relevant; an aborted child is an aborted child regardless of race.

FYI; the KKK not only killed African-Americans, they also attacked and killed Jews, Catholics as well as sympathic Caucasians.
 
I see the old “agree to disagree” and trying to understate facts as subjective “opinions” have both quickly been invoked. When the only criteria for evidence is the strength of your emotions, suddenly anyone can be correct in their own minds. Typical last resort of a regressive attempting to debate.
 
gamewell45 said:
To me race is not relevant; an aborted child is an aborted child regardless of race.

FYI; the KKK not only killed African-Americans, they also attacked and killed Jews, Catholics as well as sympathic Caucasians.
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As does PP. T

Again how many free PAP smears does it take to migiate killing 400,000 children a year?
 
gamewell45 said:
I think you went wrong where you’ve maintained that the funds would be “fungible”; I don’t believe this to be true;
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How so? It is part of the nature of money. My example of the party shows exactly how this is done. You give me $20, I promise not to spend it on beer, but that just frees up $20 of my own funds that I can now spend on beer.

You can’t get away from it. Right now PP has a $1+ billion dollar budget. It gets about $350 million from the government. Right now, PP can spend up to $650M on abortion services (the remaining $350M cannot, since it comes from the government). Take away its $350M subsidy, and now PP has to choose. Can it keep spending $650M on other services, or will it choose to reduce those services so it can keep its abortion business.

Give PP $350M, and that is $350M of its own money it can now spend on abortion.
gamewell45 said:
furthermore I’m looking at this from a practicable standpoint, as opposed from a religious standpoint. Some here have stated that they are viewing it as a moral standpoint; thats fine but unfortunatley I believe that cutting funding will hurt and possibly in some cases cause deaths.
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I don’t get your point. This doesn’t address anything about the principle of funding organizations that perform evil acts with government dollars. Well, except to ignore the nature of any act as evil, neutral, or good. But in doing that, you’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and there’s no reason to even judge what PP is doing. You can’t ignore the moral standpoint, otherwise this argument is meaningless.
gamewell45 said:
In the case of funding for abortions, what I have maintained all along is that the government should mandate that no federal funds are to be used for abortions; rather, let the person or insurance companies pay for it. The government can regulate and approve how the fundings are paid out.
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This still gets to the fungible nature of money. So, PP doesn’t use government dollars. But dollars are dollars, regardless of the source. It’s not like Uncle Sam has specially printed dollar bills that can only be used for non-abortion related services. All it does it allow PP to use more dollars from their general fund for abortions without having to consider any sacrifice to their other services.

PP can choose: have $1T to spend on non-abortion related services or have $650M to spend on abortion and other services. It’s their choice. Don’t blame Uncle Same because PP chooses to cut funding to non-abortion related services.
gamewell45 said:
Many people in here want the organization to simply evaporate;
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Only insofar as their abortion and contraceptive services. I know I’d be fine with PP if all they provided were pap smears, hormonal treatments, OB exams, etc. It’s the evil of abortion that makes many want them to go away. Get rid of abortion and I guarantee you opposition to PP would drop dramatically.
gamewell45 said:
its not going to happen, especially since, aside from abortions (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try),
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… aside from rape (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

… aside from murder (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

… aside from theft (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

PP doesn’t derive any special protective status just because it is providing a service which will “never stop no matter how hard [we] try”.
gamewell45 said:
they do a lot of good for society.
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So did Stalin. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been run out of town for killing millions.

The point is that no good that PP does can ever offset the evil of abortion. PP could provide universal healthcare, free food, clean water, free housing, and a free college education to every man woman and child on earth and it wouldn’t offset the horror of killing millions of children.
gamewell45 said:
Better to get rid of government-paid abortions and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are pregnant.
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Yeah.

Better to get rid of government-paid murder and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are bloodthirsty.

Better to get rid of government-paid slavery and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are slave holders.

Better to get rid of government-paid rapists and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are horny.

Better to get rid of government-paid theft and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are greedy.

See how that works?
 
I’m a little surprised to find she was against “professional prostitutes”. 🤷
 
Suudy said:
How so? It is part of the nature of money. My example of the party shows exactly how this is done. You give me $20, I promise not to spend it on beer, but that just frees up $20 of my own funds that I can now spend on beer.

You can’t get away from it. Right now PP has a $1+ billion dollar budget. It gets about $350 million from the government. Right now, PP can spend up to $650M on abortion services (the remaining $350M cannot, since it comes from the government). Take away its $350M subsidy, and now PP has to choose. Can it keep spending $650M on other services, or will it choose to reduce those services so it can keep its abortion business.

Give PP $350M, and that is $350M of its own money it can now spend on abortion.

I don’t get your point. This doesn’t address anything about the principle of funding organizations that perform evil acts with government dollars. Well, except to ignore the nature of any act as evil, neutral, or good. But in doing that, you’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and there’s no reason to even judge what PP is doing. You can’t ignore the moral standpoint, otherwise this argument is meaningless.

This still gets to the fungible nature of money. So, PP doesn’t use government dollars. But dollars are dollars, regardless of the source. It’s not like Uncle Sam has specially printed dollar bills that can only be used for non-abortion related services. All it does it allow PP to use more dollars from their general fund for abortions without having to consider any sacrifice to their other services.

PP can choose: have $1T to spend on non-abortion related services or have $650M to spend on abortion and other services. It’s their choice. Don’t blame Uncle Same because PP chooses to cut funding to non-abortion related services.

Only insofar as their abortion and contraceptive services. I know I’d be fine with PP if all they provided were pap smears, hormonal treatments, OB exams, etc. It’s the evil of abortion that makes many want them to go away. Get rid of abortion and I guarantee you opposition to PP would drop dramatically.

… aside from rape (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

… aside from murder (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

… aside from theft (which you’ll never stop no matter how hard you try)…

PP doesn’t derive any special protective status just because it is providing a service which will “never stop no matter how hard [we] try”.

So did Stalin. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been run out of town for killing millions.

The point is that no good that PP does can ever offset the evil of abortion. PP could provide universal healthcare, free food, clean water, free housing, and a free college education to every man woman and child on earth and it wouldn’t offset the horror of killing millions of children.

Yeah.

Better to get rid of government-paid murder and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are bloodthirsty.

Better to get rid of government-paid slavery and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are slave holders.

Better to get rid of government-paid rapists and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are horny.

Better to get rid of government-paid theft and let the responsibility fall into the hands of those who are greedy.

See how that works?
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Unfortunatelly I really don’t know how to make my position any plainer then I have. Either way you have your position and I have mine. We’ll have to leave it at that.
 
gamewell45 said:
Unfortunatelly I really don’t know how to make my position any plainer then I have. Either way you have your position and I have mine. We’ll have to leave it at that.
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Then let’s start at the beginning. Either money is fungible or it isn’t. Why do you think money isn’t fungible?

Let’s start with a definition (from here):


  1. *](finance and commerce) Able to be substituted for something of equal value.
    *]Interchangeable.

    Now, where in my argument that PP’s government funding is fungible am I wrong?
 
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