Harsh Questions for Catholics and Christians

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To “mikew” : I actually have faith, in a God, as I said in an earlier post, SOME kind of abstract, transcendent God, a Supreme Unity, a force behind all of life and creation. I believe “He / It” has a “will” for us, and wishes to be discovered by us. I believe the last Prophet that Mankind received, the last to whom divine inspiration gave words to speak, was Muhammad (pbuh). And in those words he called all Mankind back towards the purest form of Monotheism as practiced by Abraham. But I do not believe in the divinity of the historical man upon whom the Christ mythology is based. Therefore I could not ever honestly re-embrace my Christian faith, even if I wanted to , because I have an “irreconcilable difference” , if you will, with its most basic tenet; that that man was in any way shape or form divine, and that he died on the cross and rose from the dead to “save” or open the door for salvation for humankind. God will already forgive us all, anyone who honestly repents of anything, without this poor Jewish man having had to die for it to be possible.
 
dsaint:
A Jewish teacher that I had, I believe he was Orthodox, when I was in school, explained this interesting fact to me as well : much of the whole “thing” , so to speak, is , or was, based upon a great (and grave) historical mistranslation or misunderstanding of words. Isaiah 7:14 (Jerusalem Bible). Although it would … stretch the modern imagination… to think that Isaiah, who lived some 750 yrs prior to Jesus, had actually been thinking of Mary and her son when he made his prophecy to King Ahaz, even if he had, by some extraordinary kind of “esp” divined this, he did NOT denote that the “young woman” in question would be a virgin. The word “almah”, this teacher told me, means simply “maiden”, or “young woman”, and nothing more. “…a young woman will conceive and bear a son…” And yet still today we hear this portion of Isaiah being quoted by Christians as “proof” that Jesus was “born of a virgin” in “fulfillment of the Scriptures”.
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If Matthew had cited that verse in Isaiah as the only proof of the Virgin Birth of Christ you and the good rabbi might have a case, but that’s simply not what it was intended to do. Luke also cites Mary’s virginal state with no references to any OT verses of any kind but as a plain fact.

Matthew did not cite Isaiah 7:14 as proof but as a witness that Mary was a virgin. He was perfectly aware of the fact that the word alma can mean a virgin or simply a young woman, either married or unmarried. It is obvious he meant it to mean an unmarried young woman as clearly seen in the context of Mt. 1:18-23.

Isaiah speaks of a sign, which is why Matthew cites Is. 7:14 for he was writing to his fellow Jews in particular, who also knew this verse and its possible meanings. Matthew is simply saying that he is using it in the sense of a virgin, and that’s all, not that it proves Mary was a virgin.

Btw, just so you know I’m not guessing about my analysis or that it is merely my opinion, I have a B. A. in Bible and religious education and am quite familiar with the various ways the Bible may and/or ought to be interpreted. 😉
 
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dsaint:
To “mikew” : I actually have faith, in a God, as I said in an earlier post, SOME kind of abstract, transcendent God, a Supreme Unity, a force behind all of life and creation.
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Hmm…,a force behind all of life and creation, I would think working a resurrection and a virgin birth would be small potatoes.

Think outside of the box!
 
Oh well… before this descends into ugliness… I think this should probably be my last post to this thread that I started.

anova.org/sev/htm/qr/chs/109.htm

Further, I would like to recommend to any readers who are truly confident in their faith ( I don’t wish to be the cause of anyone reading a book which “shakes” their faith or spiritually disturbs them in anyway) :

"Jesus, A Life ", by A.N. Wilson

“Jesus the Jew” , by Prof. Gaza Vermes

(two good basic books with which I found myself to be in total agreement, and which also expound on , clearly in much greater detail than would be possible on any online msg forum, the things we talked about in this thread) .

Also, the film “Kadosh”, should be in your “foreign films” section at your local video store, for a look at (again what I believe) the closest types of Jews today to what Jesus himself and / or his family and disciples might well have been like.
 
When it comes to knowing what Jesus really did or claimed, I do not think it is unreasonable to give more credence to the testimony of those who knew him, as opposed to the testimony of a man who lived six hundred years later. Also, to say that Jesus was just like every other regular Orthodox Jew of His day, or the present day, contradicts what we actually know about Him on a personal level. If His disciples had made up His claims of divinity, Christianity’s many opponents would have immediately shot the claims down. There was considerable opposition from the Jews (and later from the Roman government), after all.

God bless!
 
Ah he is a Muslim! That explains a lot. Wish he had said so to begin with. Such a pity to fall away from Christ.
 
“…pure Christian propaganda. An answer made from faith, not from reason.” Now you’re getting the idea!!!
 
dsaint, take a look at the thread I started on false prophets. Compare Muhammed and Jesus. I assure you Jesus wins out.
 
And I don’t really think he’s a Muslim; he sounds more agnostic.
 
Or, for a non-religious (but not particularly irreligous) study of Jesus and why he, a Jew, was crucified by the Romans, I would recommend:

Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews : A Jewish Life and the Emergence of Christianity by Paula Fredriksen
 
the italian guy neither understands Christianity nor islam…in bocca al lupo fratello, in bocca al lupo. Se hai abbandonado Gesu e’ perche non l’hai conosciuto…mi spiace, ma chissa…the prodigal son 😉
 
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AquinasXVI:
Investigate the beginnings of Islam…check out Belloc’s writings. Islam in a strict sense is an incomplete synthesis of the Judeo-Christian theology. It is difficult for me to believe in Muhammad who is objectively speaking a self proclaimed prophet. His version of God is a dictator. Christ reavealed God as FATHER. Christ resurrected from the dead as a historical fact. Christ fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies way back from Genesis. Muhammad did not fulfill anything. Furthermore, Christ claimed himself as God and gave proof of it. Muhammad demotes Christ as a human prophet. So these two are not reconcilable ideas. True that Christ was man…but no less true that He was God.

A simplified or streamlined religion can be tempting for it takes less effort. The reason the Catholic faith seem complex is because it is imbedded in history and many things Christ revealed are in forms of paradoxes. Many want a simplified Christ…because they cannot stretch themselves to embrace paradoxes.

Lastly, but even more important, pray for illumination. Christ said that He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

God bless your search for you seem to be in your personal LENT right now.

in XT.
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Well said! I wish I could state my thoughts half as clearly… 👍
 
Angel Bradford:
And I don’t really think he’s a Muslim; he sounds more agnostic.
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You first have to learn how muslims would do ANY way to convince us that our faith is wrong and their are right even if they have to lie… this guy is not the only one here… I see some people also do the same, some pretend to be catholic, some pretend to be pc, some really attacking christianity without even bother to explain about his own religion to us. You know, no matter how good they lie to us, we will find out. LIE is not a good thing at all… unfortunately… they still do it. So becareful.
 
inJESUS:
Sì, il mio amico, ma … sono stato nella crisi totale spirituale, recentemente. Non sono sicuro … che … che voglio abbandonare GesuChristu nella mia vida. Ho bisogno di aiuto, aiuto spirituale. Non so che … che sono Musulmano. Sono molto confuso. Il mio padre e nat a la , in Italia, molto vicino della citta di Isernia, en il regione di Molise. E molto rurale a la , dove e da, e … il loro Cattolicismo è molto vecchio, e molto “rurale” nel suo stile. Per esempio, pregano a un “Santa Liberata” a la , il loro “patroness” locale. ( È anche adorata nella Galizia, in Spagna). Mi dispiace molto per mi Italiano, io parlo il dialetto del Molisani / Abruzzese , non l’Italiano proprio. Ma spero che lei capisce. Forse lei pregherà per me? Ho bisogno dell’aiuto da quest’agonia mentale. Vado andare alla Chiesa, questa domenica, pregare. Grazie, e Dio benedici. ~Dino
 
What I said to poster “inJESUS” was, in essence, that I am and have been going through a horrible spiritual “crisis” , a total one, right now, recently. As I said earlier, I did make the Muslim confession of faith (shahadah) in June of '03. Prior to that I had lived in a state of , let’s say “agnosticism” for about eight years or so. Prior to that I had been Roman Catholic, as I said I was born into it, educated in it, and raised in it. I made all the sacraments up to Confirmation. I was “seduced” by Islam, as I put it in an earlier post, during my time in the Arab world. Something about the “mystique” of it. But, the root of the personal crisis has been that , what pains me and yet also … I don’t know… the thing is , is that the Roman Catholic church, particularly the one in which I grew up, still, I must admit, feels most like “home” to me. Perhaps I’ve thought or probed too deeply into what some scholars call “the historical Jesus”, convincing myself for instance that since he was a devout Jew, he would not want Gentiles worshiping him as God, and that what we have here today (Catholicism), should really be called “Paul-ianity” , etc, those kinds of notions. But, perhaps the real “risen Christ” is not to be looked at through eyes of historical inquiry, as the “notion” of it, or him, is basically “beyond” historical inquiry now. It has to be looked at through eyes of faith, if at all. I have been really really struggling lately. I have wavered back and forth in my mind, thinking sometimes I should pursue Islam further, and other times that I should re-embrace (fully) my native Roman Catholicism. I’m in a lot of pain to tell you the truth. I need spiritual counseling or advice. How do you all keep your faith?? And …further… did the fact that I technically took the Muslim confession of faith, and have prayed (on and off) for the past three years or so , as a Muslim prays, in any way “annull” my original Catholic baptism?

Anyone here who can help?? A priest would be most appreciated, but if none is available any educated and sincere layperson who could help me I would really appreciate it.

Thank you.
 
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