Has a church ever officially said whether or not someone went to hell?
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whichwaytogo47
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The church teaches us to avoid mortal sin to avoid being danger of Hell and being repentant of such sin. Being excommunicated from the Church is not an assertion by the Church that the person’s going to Hell - quite the contrary, excommunication is done with the hope that the individual will have a conversion and thus avoid Hell. I’ve even heard of miracles where people, including a priest, had a near death experience having a taste of Hell and this brought about their conversion. God and the saints rejoice more over one sinner whom converts and perseveres to the end than 99 righteous people with no need of repenting. It would be nice if we could all avoid Hell, but our free-will can place us at risk of going to Hell.
We know there are people in Hell because of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man and that 2/3 of the angels are risen angels and 1/3 are fallen.
The thief on the cross is a prime example of how someone can convert at the moment of death and go to Heaven. Paul is an example of someone that murdered Christians yet went to Heaven because he repented of his ways and followed God. A wonderful conversion story!
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Timeflies2me
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The church has never condemned anyone to hell.
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midori
Guest
Anecdotes abound-- I can think of Hitler, (Lenin?), Judas, plus various people who had afterlife visions where they encountered family members in both places.
But official church teaching? No.
I used to date a guy who was Baptist. I’d gone to a few of their services, and I remember the preacher talking about how important it is to follow Christ in your lifetime, because by the time you get to your death, it’s too late. And he explained how deathbed conversions were totally unacceptable to God.
I agreed that waiting that long to repent is an unpleasant gamble… but I was a bit indignant that there was a preacher who was coolly dishing out “sorry, your repentance isn’t good enough, go to hell”.
Because, you know, eternal separation from God is serious business. And it’s not something I want to be on the judge-y side of things on… because we all know how we get judged with our own measure.
So rather than worrying about Hitler, or Mao, or Lenin, or Judas— I worry about me, and what I do, and what I fail to do, and the people God has given to me. Because God’s not going to compare me to Hitler, or Mao, or Lenin, or Judas… he’s going to compare me to Jesus, and I know I’m going to fall short.
But official church teaching? No.
I used to date a guy who was Baptist. I’d gone to a few of their services, and I remember the preacher talking about how important it is to follow Christ in your lifetime, because by the time you get to your death, it’s too late. And he explained how deathbed conversions were totally unacceptable to God.
I agreed that waiting that long to repent is an unpleasant gamble… but I was a bit indignant that there was a preacher who was coolly dishing out “sorry, your repentance isn’t good enough, go to hell”.
Because, you know, eternal separation from God is serious business. And it’s not something I want to be on the judge-y side of things on… because we all know how we get judged with our own measure.
So rather than worrying about Hitler, or Mao, or Lenin, or Judas— I worry about me, and what I do, and what I fail to do, and the people God has given to me. Because God’s not going to compare me to Hitler, or Mao, or Lenin, or Judas… he’s going to compare me to Jesus, and I know I’m going to fall short.
No …
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Dan_Defender
Guest
No. Such things are left to God’s judgment.
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Aquinas11
Guest
Lady of Fatima showed souls falling into hell like snowflakes
Jesus said in Matthew 7 that the “wide gate” leads to destruction “and many enter through it”
Regarding Judas , Jesus said it would have been better for him that he had never been born. Take from that what you will but it sure doesn’t sound promising. In Dante Inferno, the bottom level of hell is for those engaged in Betrayal and Satan is chewing on Judas’ torso.
Jesus said in Matthew 7 that the “wide gate” leads to destruction “and many enter through it”
Regarding Judas , Jesus said it would have been better for him that he had never been born. Take from that what you will but it sure doesn’t sound promising. In Dante Inferno, the bottom level of hell is for those engaged in Betrayal and Satan is chewing on Judas’ torso.
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Aquinas11
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Yes that’s why all I said is doesn’t sound promising. Agree it’s not definitive but will say I’m not sure what else “better he never had been born” could mean.
Yes also agree on Dante, although I wouldn’t call it fictional since that genre ignores the theological/scriptural elements. Suppose it’s more theological/scriptural poetry? Not sure
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CRV
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Indeed. Luke 16:19-31
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Wampa
Guest
I’ll offer the same potential Yes answer I’ve offered in two previous threads (here and here):
Possibly Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta. Wikipedia says (and I am unable to confirm beyond the wiki page):
Pope Pius II, who considered him guilty of treachery towards Siena arising from his long-running feud with Federico da Montefeltro, Duke of Urbino, excommunicated him, declaring him a heretic and attributing to Sigismondo a series of sins (incest, sodomy against his son Roberto and others) which smeared his reputation for centuries. In a unique ceremony, he was canonized into Hell with the curse, “No mortal heretofore has descended into Hell with the ceremony of canonization. Sigi shall be the first deemed worthy of such honor.” The art critic and historian Robert Hughes contrasted Sigismondo’s patronage of art with the story that his excommunication was “a distinction he earned by trussing up a Papal emissary, the fifteen-year-old Bishop of Fano, and publicly sodomising him before his applauding army in the main square of Rimini”.
When I was looking through The Spectator online to find the listed source (The Spectator, 7 August 2012), I came upon this additional bit of info:
“…Sigismondo was so famed for his cruelty that the Catholic Church made him (for a time) the only man apart from Judas Iscariot officially listed as being in hell…”
Possibly Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta. Wikipedia says (and I am unable to confirm beyond the wiki page):
Pope Pius II, who considered him guilty of treachery towards Siena arising from his long-running feud with Federico da Montefeltro, Duke of Urbino, excommunicated him, declaring him a heretic and attributing to Sigismondo a series of sins (incest, sodomy against his son Roberto and others) which smeared his reputation for centuries. In a unique ceremony, he was canonized into Hell with the curse, “No mortal heretofore has descended into Hell with the ceremony of canonization. Sigi shall be the first deemed worthy of such honor.” The art critic and historian Robert Hughes contrasted Sigismondo’s patronage of art with the story that his excommunication was “a distinction he earned by trussing up a Papal emissary, the fifteen-year-old Bishop of Fano, and publicly sodomising him before his applauding army in the main square of Rimini”.
When I was looking through The Spectator online to find the listed source (The Spectator, 7 August 2012), I came upon this additional bit of info:
“…Sigismondo was so famed for his cruelty that the Catholic Church made him (for a time) the only man apart from Judas Iscariot officially listed as being in hell…”
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MiserereMeiDei
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Poor St. Dismas. He’s going to be so disappointed.
Crusader13
New member
From my understanding no Pope has ever dogmatically defined that any specific person is in hell.
However, the scriptural evidence along with some writings and documents of some early church fathers would support the belief that Judas was damned to hell.
I personally haven’t found any evidence from Scripture that suggests Judas was saved or even went to purgatory.
However, the scriptural evidence along with some writings and documents of some early church fathers would support the belief that Judas was damned to hell.
I personally haven’t found any evidence from Scripture that suggests Judas was saved or even went to purgatory.
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Elias
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I am just going to leave this here without comment
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Oh and this passage from the epistle to Jude
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Oh and this passage from the epistle to Jude
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HeDa
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Not only that but his feast day is also on March 25th. The Annunciation of Our Lord is vastly more important than his feast day, and I guess, that is why we hear so little about him.
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SPONP4US
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Great question.
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Mintaka
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Artistic works and private revelations are not the same as official legal, infallible teachings.
Same thing for the “hell canonization.” If it ever happened, and is not just tabloid reporting, it had no legal or moral force. (Same thing with the “Corpse Synod.”) You can say stuff and make up ceremonies all you want, but you cannot make that stuff legal or sanctified. It was just disgusting street theater.
And yes, Church history includes some very nasty people temporarily in power. No matter what bad stuff happens in our modern world, somebody in the past already has done something similarly dumb and yucky.
Same thing for the “hell canonization.” If it ever happened, and is not just tabloid reporting, it had no legal or moral force. (Same thing with the “Corpse Synod.”) You can say stuff and make up ceremonies all you want, but you cannot make that stuff legal or sanctified. It was just disgusting street theater.
And yes, Church history includes some very nasty people temporarily in power. No matter what bad stuff happens in our modern world, somebody in the past already has done something similarly dumb and yucky.
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Inquiry
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Strictly speaking, that’s a parable. It would convey the truth even if even if the rich man in question never existed. Indeed it would convey the truth even if no human has actually gone to hell yet.
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Mintaka
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The Church teaches that there are people in Hell. She does not definitively declare who those people are. (Other than the Devil and his crew. We know about them for sure.)
And yes, lots of modern theologians try to get around this. But it is a heresy to say that nobody, or no human, can go to Hell forever or do anything bad enough to warrant eternal punishment, or that those condemned to Hell are only there temporarily.
We can hope that everybody died repentant, somehow; but Jesus does teach us that He will be separating the sheep from the goats, and that there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth, and so on. And He should know.
It is not a heresy to hope that God has a way around this, which is why folks like Von Balthasar don’t count as heretics. If you keep it speculative instead of teaching stuff as certain, you can say a lot of things as a theologian.
But given the wicked impenitence of many, the odds do not run that way. If you don’t want people to go to Hell, pray for them to repent and make amends. Pray for the souls of the dying.
And yes, lots of modern theologians try to get around this. But it is a heresy to say that nobody, or no human, can go to Hell forever or do anything bad enough to warrant eternal punishment, or that those condemned to Hell are only there temporarily.
We can hope that everybody died repentant, somehow; but Jesus does teach us that He will be separating the sheep from the goats, and that there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth, and so on. And He should know.
It is not a heresy to hope that God has a way around this, which is why folks like Von Balthasar don’t count as heretics. If you keep it speculative instead of teaching stuff as certain, you can say a lot of things as a theologian.
But given the wicked impenitence of many, the odds do not run that way. If you don’t want people to go to Hell, pray for them to repent and make amends. Pray for the souls of the dying.
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Inquiry
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I wasn’t saying that nobody goes to hell, I was saying that the parable wasn’t an example of someone who had. I very much accept the existence of Hell and its state as a possible destination, but it is my fervent prayer that it is empty (except for the fallen angels).
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