Has America Gone Atheist?

[TheGarg]

SamCA:

Oh, we’re certainly in a major moral crisis in this country. The reason being that there are a number of competing religions and ideologies whose moral and ethical values are inherently contradictory.

I don’t think it’s a conflict between atheists and Christians, though. I think it’s a conflict between different brands of Christianity.

the “semi-agnotheist” has just hit the nail on the head

Good Job SamCA, I am glad your semi-open and oneday hope you accept the Fullness of Christ. Peace be to you!

 

[eptatorata]

Gilbert Keith:

Think what you like.

Still evading a direct answer?

So I ask you:

Do you think people who (do XXX) believe in God?

Rather than being straightforward, you imply that belief in god is incompatible with the commitment of crimes. Whether or not an individual believes in God only he or she can answer.

In return, let me ask a direct question - do the pedophile priests believe in God?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

eptatorata

The question you asked in post # 57 I answered in post # 58. Will you please answer the question I asked in post # 60 before I answer your question about pedophile priests?

You have to show good faith by answering questions if you want questions answered.

God bless,
Gilbert

 

[eptatorata]

I don’t see a basis for a good faith exchange, but I’ll humor you anyway. Unless I know another person very well, I cannot venture a guess if he or she believes in God or not.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

I have reviewed all your posts. The average length of your posts is about two lines.

You’re right in saying there is no good faith basis for any further exchanges between us.

God bless,
Gilbert

 

[eptatorata]

You’re right in saying there is no good faith basis for any further exchanges between us.

Just for the record, I answered your question anyway. Tersely, perhaps, but answer I did. It is your prerogative to walk away for any reason, including a lack of perspicuity.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

eptatorata:

Just for the record, I answered your question anyway. Tersely, perhaps, but answer I did. It is your prerogative to walk away for any reason, including a lack of perspicuity.

HAPPY EASTER!

Gilbert

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

I am so tired of hearing this argument from atheists.Do you really think that drug and alcohol use among children, child pornography, child molestation, child rape and murder, murders in the schoolyard, organizations defending sex with children such as Nambla, can all be laid at the door of competing religions?

Please give me the name of any religion that does not condemn these practices.

What, do you think atheists sit around talking about how great child molestation and murder are?

Things like that don’t happen because of atheism. Things like that happen because loads of people are selfish, evil, or deeply sick. And as I think certain recent scandals show, these are things that can happen in any group, religious or not.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Sam

Interesting that you do not answer the question that I asked.

More to the point, I think atheists have a policy of not believing in sin, nor of repenting for their sins since they have no one to repent to.

But they are not alone. The American Catholic bishops have become as tedious a group as the atheists referred to above.

See the following:

seattlecatholic.com/article_20030820.html

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

Sam

Interesting that you do not answer the question that I asked.

Ok. Allow me to answer more specifically – as far as I know, there is no religion that endorses the practices you described. Well, with the possible exception of murder, in certain cases. And some could argue that the ‘marriage’ practices of some religions qualify as rape. But in the general sense, no religion supports these things.

But then, neither does atheism. Despite what some religious people seem to think, atheists don’t immediately throw all their morals and ethics to the wind when they become atheists. I’ve never in my life met an atheist who thought any of those things was acceptable.

More to the point, I think atheists have a policy of not believing in sin, nor of repenting for their sins since they have no one to repent to.

Just because you don’t believe in the Christian conception of sin doesn’t mean you don’t have a sense of right or wrong.

For instance, I do not believe in sin. I don’t feel the need to repent before God if I do something bad. But I do have a conscience, and if I do something that hurts one of my fellow human beings for it, I certainly feel the need to repent to them.

I’m sure there are atheists out there who will happily hurt others without a second thought. There are Christians who do the same. Not good Christians, but you don’t instantly become an atheist the second you decide to start doing bad things.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Sam

… but you don’t instantly become an atheist the second you decide to start doing bad things.

This is true, because you have announced the Catholic teaching on natural law, which says that we have planted in our hearts a natural sense of right and wrong.

Atheists cannot escape that sense any more than anyone else.

The difference is that atheism provides a foundation for the individual to talk himself out of natural and supernatural consequences for wrongdoing (sin). If you don’t think so, read the Marquis de Sade’s famous dialogue between a dying atheist and a priest. This kind of thought process that justifes wrongdoing would be inconceivable to any religious person.

The German philosopher Nietzsche likewise tried to abrogate any supernatural foundation for God when he declared the death of God. It should come as no suprise to anyone in this forum that Hitler greatly admired Nietzsche … since Hitler had a contempt for all religion and persecuted members of every religion … and was evil incarnate.

This is not to say that every atheist inevitably becomes a Hitler. Many atheist were raised in good religious homes, and have thrown off God but were unable to throw off God’s influence in their early lives. Many of these atheists live very good lives and return to God later in life.

But if any atheist is looking for an excuse to commit evil acts with impunity, what is to restrain him when he has thrown off God?

 

[eptatorata]

Gilbert Keith:

But if any atheist is looking for an excuse to commit evil acts with impunity, what is to restrain him when he has thrown off God?

Have the pedophile priests thrown off god? Or will you continue to ask for answers without giving answers yourself?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

eptatorata

As I said before, I’m not exchanging posts with you if you can’t write posts considerably longer than two lines. This hit-and-run tactic of yours has become very tedious indeed.

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

This is true, because you have announced the Catholic teaching on natural law, which says that we have planted in our hearts a natural sense of right and wrong.

Obviously we disagree as to the source, but yes, I agree that most human beings are born with an instinctual sense of empathy and sympathy for others.

I say “most” because a certain subset of the population seem to be born physiologically incapable of empathy or any real feeling of morality; we call these people psychopaths. But they are, I think, the exception that proves the rule.

(I would be interested in hearing the Catholic position on psychopaths as regards natural law, but that’s probably fodder for a different thread.)

The difference is that atheism provides a foundation for the individual to talk himself out of natural and supernatural consequences for wrongdoing (sin). If you don’t think so, read the Marquis de Sade’s famous dialogue between a dying atheist and a priest.

Sure. Once you accept the view that there’s no eternal torture chamber waiting for bad people, you’re pretty much left with your own conscience, and any fear of material punishment, preventing you from committing crimes.

However, you do realize that loads of people who do believe in Hell keep right on sinning, yes? Not to belabor an obvious point, but those pedophile priests – and the members of the Church hierarchy who covered up their crimes – probably believe in Hell. It didn’t stop them.

Furthermore, I would argue that someone who refrains from evil solely out of fear of eternal punishment, or who engages in good only for hope of Heaven, is not acting morally anyway. They’re not hurting anybody, which is nice. But between a Christian who refrains from evil all the time out of fear of Hell and an atheist who does wrong sometimes but tries to be as good as he can simply because it’s the right thing to do, I know which one I consider a better person.

This kind of thought process that justifes wrongdoing would be inconceivable to any religious person.

That particular “There’s no afterlife, I’ll do whatever I want!” thought process, perhaps. There are, however, other thought processes which have led the devoutly faithful to horrifying excesses just as evil as any atheist could commit. The men who flew those planes into the World Trade Center had a deep, committed faith in God.

Many atheist were raised in good religious homes, and have thrown off God but were unable to throw off God’s influence in their early lives. Many of these atheists live very good lives and return to God later in life.

I grew up in an entirely irreligious home. I never saw the inside of a Church unless I was taken to a wedding or a funeral. My mom believes there’s a God, but my dad doesn’t, and it was never talked about much.

I like to think I’m at least an ok person, despite the fact that religion has had no real impact on me.

But if any atheist is looking for an excuse to commit evil acts with impunity, what is to restrain him when he has thrown off God?

1. His own conscience.
2. Everyone else. We have a place for people who commit evil acts with impunity – jail.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Sam

*But between a Christian who refrains from evil all the time out of fear of Hell and an atheist who does wrong sometimes but tries to be as good as he can simply because it’s the right thing to do, I know which one I consider a better person.
*
Why must the Christian who refrains from evil from fear of Hell not also be a person who does something right because it’s the right thing to do? Must the Christian be acting only from one motive?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

But if any atheist is looking for an excuse to commit evil acts with impunity, what is to restrain him when he has thrown off God?

1. His own conscience.
2. Everyone else. We have a place for people who commit evil acts with impunity – jail.

Neither worked with Hitler, Mao and Stalin. And they ceretainly did not work with the ultimate atheist the Marquis de Sade who continued his career of sadism even within the prison walls of France.

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

Why must the Christian who refrains from evil from fear of Hell not also be a person who does something right because it’s the right thing to do? Must the Christian be acting only from one motive?

Of course not. I know many good Christians who do right for just that reason.

But if moral Christians are also the ones who do right simply because it’s right, then why does supernatural reward or punishment matter at all?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Sam

The men who flew those planes into the World Trade Center had a deep, committed faith in God.

How do you know this for a fact? I think many in the Muslim world have denounced the 9/11 gang of thugs as not representative of true Islamic spirituality.

Since you never knew these men, how do you know they had a deep committed faith in God?

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

Neither worked with Hitler, Mao and Stalin. And they ceretainly did not work with the ultimate atheist the Marquis de Sade who continued his career of sadism even within the prison walls of France.

Sure. And none of those things worked on Torquemada, Osama Bin Ladin, or any of the laundry list of historical figures who did evil in the name of God, either.

I’m not saying that atheists don’t commit evil, or that they don’t even manage to get away with it sometimes. But to me, that just means that some people always commit evil – whatever their creed.

 

[SamCA]

Gilbert Keith:

How do you know this for a fact? I think many in the Muslim world have denounced the 9/11 gang of thugs as not representative of true Islamic spirituality.

And the fundamentalist Muslims have likewise denounced the moderates. Religious people are always denouncing each other for not being the true [insert religious group here] when they differ on their interpretation of what God wants.

It doesn’t mean both groups aren’t faithfully convinced that they’re obeying God.

Since you never knew these men, how do you know they had a deep committed faith in God?

It takes a certain amount of faith in your cause to fly a plane into a building. I suppose it’s possible that they were motivated more by their political cause, or what have you.

This specific example is incidental to my point, which is that faithful, religious people have committed terrible crimes throughout history, thinking they were working God’s will. Witch burning, the millenias of strife between Christians, Jews, and Muslims, the similar strife between Muslims and Hindus, and so on, and so on.

My main point is, sometimes religious people do bad things too. Being an atheist isn’t a prerequisite.