J
- Status
B
blessedstar
Guest
carmelite.org/mesters/mesters4.htm
III TEN POINTS FOR PERSONAL LECTIO DIVINA
The attitude of the faithful disciple:
The Lord God has given, me the tongue of those who are taught, that I may know how to sustain with a word the one that is weary. Morning by morning God wakens, wakens my ear to hear as those who are taught. (Is 50:4)
1 Opening prayer, an invocation to the holy Spirit.
2 Slow and attentive reading of the text.
3 A moment of interior silence, to recall what I have read.
4 Look at the meaning of each phrase.
5 Bring the word into the present, ponder it, in relation to life.
6 Broaden my vision by relating this text to other biblical texts.
7 Read the text again, prayer giving a response to God.
8 Formulate my commitment to life.
9 Pray with a suitable psalm.
10 Choose a phrase which captures the meaning and memorise it.
This is the way to practise Lectio Divinia which leads to contemplation God willing.
III TEN POINTS FOR PERSONAL LECTIO DIVINA
The attitude of the faithful disciple:
The Lord God has given, me the tongue of those who are taught, that I may know how to sustain with a word the one that is weary. Morning by morning God wakens, wakens my ear to hear as those who are taught. (Is 50:4)
1 Opening prayer, an invocation to the holy Spirit.
2 Slow and attentive reading of the text.
3 A moment of interior silence, to recall what I have read.
4 Look at the meaning of each phrase.
5 Bring the word into the present, ponder it, in relation to life.
6 Broaden my vision by relating this text to other biblical texts.
7 Read the text again, prayer giving a response to God.
8 Formulate my commitment to life.
9 Pray with a suitable psalm.
10 Choose a phrase which captures the meaning and memorise it.
This is the way to practise Lectio Divinia which leads to contemplation God willing.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
There are two forms of Lectio Divina, one is Scholastic, which is basically what you describe above, the other is Monastic.
In the monastic way of doing Lectio Divina, the first two steps are done as above, but we then listen to how God is addressing us in a particular text of scripture.
When we come to the meditation part of Lectio, the Scripture is repeated and reflected upon and in silence, as we rest in the presence of Go.
This is the basis of Centering Prayer.
Jim
D
DBT
Guest
Yes, John, I knew you’d see the heart of the matter.
What frustrates me in these discussions is that we’re focused on the wrong thing and fail to see the forest through the trees.
Everyone is looking at the “means” . . . God cares about the “end” – union with Him. Any means can bring a soul to the true emptiness (i.e. contemplation) described in my previous post just as any means can bring one to false emptiness (i.e. pseudo-contemplation or navel gazing).
What matters is:
- the intention of the soul
- the grace by which God leads it to a specific way of prayer
- and the effects/fruits/virtue produced by that way of prayer
Dave.
B
blessedstar
Guest
Hi DaveYes, John, I knew you’d see the heart of the matter.
What frustrates me in these discussions is that we’re focused on the wrong thing and fail to see the forest through the trees.
Everyone is looking at the “means” . . . God cares about the “end” – union with Him. Any means can bring a soul to the true emptiness (i.e. contemplation) described in my previous post just as any means can bring one to false emptiness (i.e. pseudo-contemplation or navel gazing).
What matters is:
If the rosary leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If lectio leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If vocal prayer leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If simple gazing on Him before the tabernacle leads a soul to union; God rejoices. And yes, dare I say it, if CP leads a soul to union; God rejoices.
- the intention of the soul
- the grace by which God leads it to a specific way of prayer
- and the effects/fruits/virtue produced by that way of prayer
Dave.
Can I ask you wny then in that case would the Church forbid the use of certain prayer methods like that of ‘Quietism’, which was a grave error in prayer. There are erroneous ways of praying aren’t there?
In the Living Prayer of my life
B
blessedstar
Guest
The elements are four: 1) lectio itself, which means reading, understood as the careful repetitious recitation of a short text of Scripture; 2) meditatio or meditation, an effort to fathom the meaning of the text and make it personally relevant to oneself in Christ; 3) oratio, which means prayer, taken as a personal response to the text, asking for the grace of the text or moving over it toward union with God; and 4) contemplatio, translated contemplation, gazing at length on something. The idea behind this final element is that sometimes, by the infused grace of God, one is raised above meditation to a state of seeing or experiencing the text as mystery and reality; one comes into experiential contact with the One behind and beyond the text. It is an exposure to the divine presence, to God s truth and benevolence
How is this centering prayer?
How is this centering prayer?
B
blessedstar
Guest
On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God; he is deeper and greater than you. "I look for his substance in my soul and I do not find it; I have however meditated on the search for God and, reaching out to him, through created things, I have sought to know ‘the invisible perfections of God’ (Rom 1:20)."2 “To remain in oneself”: this is the real danger. The great Doctor of the Church recommends concentrating on oneself, but also transcending the self which is not God, but only a creature. God is "deeper than my inmost being and higher than my greatest height."22 In fact God is in us and with us, but he transcends us in his mystery.23
and…
While he raises us up, God is free to “empty” us of all that holds us back in this world, to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love. However, this gift can only be granted “in Christ through the Holy Spirit,” and not through our own efforts, withdrawing ourselves from his revelation .
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM
and…
While he raises us up, God is free to “empty” us of all that holds us back in this world, to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love. However, this gift can only be granted “in Christ through the Holy Spirit,” and not through our own efforts, withdrawing ourselves from his revelation .
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM
B
blessedstar
Guest
*Moreover, it (contemplative prayer) can even be achieved through experiences of affliction or desolation. Contrary to the view of the Messalians, these are not necessarily a sign that the Spirit has abandoned a soul. Rather, as masters of spirituality have always clearly acknowledged, they may be an authentic participation in the state of abandonment experienced on the cross by our Lord, who always remains the model and mediator of prayer.10. Both of these forms of error continue to be a “temptation for man the sinner.” They incite him to try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as “superior knowledge” or as “experience.”
Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church’s prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God.11*
and
23. Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27
I re-read the same document from the Cogregation of the Doctrine of Faith again and this stood out to me (above).
Why would we be able to enter into ourselves and there have access to the Indwelling God who is hidden and do this because we follow a method and take our rest in Him there at will?
God hides and allows His children to endure the darkness in order that they may come to Him, to me this is the authentic route of contemplation. Lack of perfection does not make God perceived to withdraw from the soul, He constantly seeks us, but as the soul is drawn deeper in prayer so aridity grows, the soul cannot find God in himself nor outside of himself.
I am utterly convinced centering prayer will not lead to contemplation.
In my Living Prayer of life.
Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church’s prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God.11*
and
23. Without doubt, a Christian needs certain periods of retreat into solitude to be recollected and, in God’s presence, rediscover his path. Nevertheless, given his character as a creature, and as a creature who knows that only in grace is he secure, his method of getting closer to God is not based on any “technique” in the strict sense of the word. That would contradict the spirit of childhood called for by the Gospel. Genuine Christian mysticism has nothing to do with technique: it is always a gift of God, and the one who benefits from it knows himself to be unworthy.27
I re-read the same document from the Cogregation of the Doctrine of Faith again and this stood out to me (above).
Why would we be able to enter into ourselves and there have access to the Indwelling God who is hidden and do this because we follow a method and take our rest in Him there at will?
God hides and allows His children to endure the darkness in order that they may come to Him, to me this is the authentic route of contemplation. Lack of perfection does not make God perceived to withdraw from the soul, He constantly seeks us, but as the soul is drawn deeper in prayer so aridity grows, the soul cannot find God in himself nor outside of himself.
I am utterly convinced centering prayer will not lead to contemplation.
In my Living Prayer of life.
D
DBT
Guest
Absolutely there are erroneous ways of praying and Quietism was the specific heresy Bl. John Ruusbroec was addressing in the post I made that defined “false emptiness.” We need to note, however, what these specific Quietists were professing: mass and confession are unnecessary, acts of virtue unimportant . . . all that matters was pursuing the quasi-stupor of the absorption of the faculties. In today’s terms we’d call this an altered-state of consciousness; completely man-made and un-spiritual. St. Teresa spoke of this at some length as well.
Contrast that with what John Ruusbroec says about “true emptiness” which, imo, is precisely what St. Teresa describes as the Prayer of Union in the 5th Dwelling of Interior Castle and ecstacy/rapture in the 6th Dwelling. These are completely licit forms of emptiness and are entirely spiritual. It is union with God; fleeting of course, but union nevertheless.
The only point I was trying to make . . . and I’m not trying to take sides one way or the other . . . is that any “means” that will lead a soul, so far as is possible through human effort, to the type of union described by the saints as the spiritual betrothal and spiritual marriage is a good thing. By definition these souls will be in complete conformity with all the doctrines of the Church and not like the Quietists.
God is the driver in all this and the “means” the soul employs is at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, of course, no means at all will be necessary when God takes over in passive recollection. However, methods of active recollection (of which CP can be considered one of many) can be highly beneficial to form the “Holy Habit” (in Brother Lawrence’s terms) of habitually seeking God in every moment of the day.
Terms can be very confusing in all of this and I’ll admit I’m not personally drawn to CP; but I also accept the stated intention of those posting here in it’s defense and acknowledge their sincere belief that CP is simply a form of active recollection and not at all like how it is presented far to often here on these forums.
Hope that helps explain some what I mean . . .
Dave.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Dave, exactlyYes, John, I knew you’d see the heart of the matter.
What frustrates me in these discussions is that we’re focused on the wrong thing and fail to see the forest through the trees.
Everyone is looking at the “means” . . . God cares about the “end” – union with Him. Any means can bring a soul to the true emptiness (i.e. contemplation) described in my previous post just as any means can bring one to false emptiness (i.e. pseudo-contemplation or navel gazing).
What matters is:
If the rosary leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If lectio leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If vocal prayer leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If simple gazing on Him before the tabernacle leads a soul to union; God rejoices. And yes, dare I say it, if CP leads a soul to union; God rejoices.
- the intention of the soul
- the grace by which God leads it to a specific way of prayer
- and the effects/fruits/virtue produced by that way of prayer
Dave.
In fact I will add, “intention of the Soul,” is what divides Christian forms of prayer from others. What is the intention of the soul, in the various prayer forms, whether it be CP, the Rosary or Lectio Divina? Its union with Jesus Christ.
Jim
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
B
blessedstar
Guest
Yes it is a form of prayer that led to a doctrine. A set of spiritual teachings that advocated a way of praying and disposing oneself to God to achieve union.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Not really;
St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of Cross, were at first accused of practicing Quietism.
Of course they were not.
Jim
B
blessedstar
Guest
Another thing to consider. God uses all that man is to communicate with him, so indeed God may allow the mind of a soul to have a thought during prayer, a given light, or series of thoughts and in CP these are told to be letten go of. These thoughts are often a source of grace to the soul and a deepening of the truths of faith that the soul already believes in but which is enriched in the soul during prayer. To this end in cp the person is conducting prayer and God is not. Prayer is a gift we are to be led in by the Holy Spirit and not to control it ourselves.
Prayer removes us from our comfort zone, it changes us and that is never comfortable nor is it something we can control. Of course we can restrict prayer and make it as we want but then God is not creating, we are creating for ourselves within the ‘self’.
Quietening the mind of all thought is a pointless exercise, this becomes the focus of prayer and even if a Sacred word is used the purpose of the word becomes a mere tool to empty the mind, when a Sacred word holds a whole world of meaning and many an hour of pondering and depth can be found. Jesus, everything in the world is contained in that name. Holy Spirit, who ever has delved into the depths of God’s Love and who can utter that name and not be drawn to think and have thoughts even if during those thoughts one might think of doing the shopping. It makes no difference, the holy lights that come to people are worth the wrestling with distraction.
I don’t want anyone to take this the wrong way when I say this because I would apply this first and foremost to myself, but who is so spiritually advanced that they can discern for themselves whether they are moved by the affections of their own self or moved by the Spirit of God. How do people know they are immersing themselves in the Indwelling God. Satan often comes to souls who seek God with an avid love of God, he comes as an angel of light producing all forms of consolation within the soul and none of it is of God. Satan would like to keep us immersed in this consolation he induces in souls because here he can stunt the spiritual development of the soul. If the soul does not cast away what has gone before and be detached even from methods the soul will constantly tread water and does not move forward. It is easy for satan to work here on the soul, man is by nature tempted to many things especially in respect of the self.
This is all wholly possible as in even in vocal prayer satan will be so rude as to intrude upon the prayer between man and God.
continued
Prayer removes us from our comfort zone, it changes us and that is never comfortable nor is it something we can control. Of course we can restrict prayer and make it as we want but then God is not creating, we are creating for ourselves within the ‘self’.
Quietening the mind of all thought is a pointless exercise, this becomes the focus of prayer and even if a Sacred word is used the purpose of the word becomes a mere tool to empty the mind, when a Sacred word holds a whole world of meaning and many an hour of pondering and depth can be found. Jesus, everything in the world is contained in that name. Holy Spirit, who ever has delved into the depths of God’s Love and who can utter that name and not be drawn to think and have thoughts even if during those thoughts one might think of doing the shopping. It makes no difference, the holy lights that come to people are worth the wrestling with distraction.
I don’t want anyone to take this the wrong way when I say this because I would apply this first and foremost to myself, but who is so spiritually advanced that they can discern for themselves whether they are moved by the affections of their own self or moved by the Spirit of God. How do people know they are immersing themselves in the Indwelling God. Satan often comes to souls who seek God with an avid love of God, he comes as an angel of light producing all forms of consolation within the soul and none of it is of God. Satan would like to keep us immersed in this consolation he induces in souls because here he can stunt the spiritual development of the soul. If the soul does not cast away what has gone before and be detached even from methods the soul will constantly tread water and does not move forward. It is easy for satan to work here on the soul, man is by nature tempted to many things especially in respect of the self.
This is all wholly possible as in even in vocal prayer satan will be so rude as to intrude upon the prayer between man and God.
continued
B
blessedstar
Guest
Moreover in order to be drawn into contemplation it is not purely an internal journey, yes it is necessary for man to be alone with God, but if we are to live the Living Prayer of our lives we must with all our faculties and with all our body be at one with God in all we do. This is not an habitual silence, this is not entering into oneself to find God, this is the deep permeating of God’s peace within a soul that from morning to night they are in Him and He is in them though every external action is undertaken and love of brother and sister is the primary focus in order to love God. They do not enter within to find Him and they do not look up to the clouds to find Him, but see Him in everything He has created and yet acknowledge that He is ‘other’ to all of this and transcends their own soul and eveyrthing He has created. God is not a bigger version of ourselves, that we may find Him within ourselves with an internal glance. Yes God has humbled Himself that He is so small to indwell a soul in the state of grace. This is not a greater energy nor higher force, but the source and summit of everything. God is not simply within our soul and limited to this small core because He is entirely ‘other’ to it whilst taking up residence within it.
Rather when He indwells us it is not that we may enter into the centre of our soul, but that we may be drawn to Him. God desires our soul we do not desire our own soul, we desire God, but if I seek Him within myself I am immediately forced to look outward from myself. This is a mystery that cannot be contained by an inward seeking of the Risen Lord. Jesus constantly forces so gently as it seems to be guiding me out of myself until I am forgetful of the self God willing.
Contemplative prayer is not a foreign land we cannot go to, it is infact our home. What God gifts of Himself here on earth is nothing compared to the Beatific Vision where He may be truly contemplated day and night keeping watch for all eternity. Here we may only keep watch as God gifts.
I have often thought in earlier years, should I be so bold as to desire to be united to God. Yes I should be so bold, this is what God created me for, this is what God created us all for, to be united to Him. It is right and proper then to seek union with God and it doesn’t depend on itellect, nor does it depend on method, nor does it depend on material goods. It all depends on the right disposition of heart and the will of God.
What would be the right disposition of heart? It would be to desire God, but not to make the desire a god. By this I mean first of all we obey God, the first sin against God was disobedience and this disobedience arose out of pride ‘you shall be like God’. Who are we deserving of nothing that we have any right to bridge the space between man and God? To push and strive and attempt to force ourselves into heaven. No such soul is fit for heaven, it lacks meekness and humility. The disposition of soul is to watch day and night for the work of God, this soul is forever watching and waiting knowing it can do nothing for itself but avail itself of God’s mercy as everyday its sins are before it knowing all to well it is nothing like God.
Mary did not make herself perfect, she was created a perfect human being and she was firstly obedient in word and deed to God thus remaining without sin. So when He came to her to indwell her womb He became Incarnate in her because she watched and waited and was mindful of everything God was doing for her ‘regarding the lowliness of his handmaid’.
United then not only in spirit but also in flesh Mary and God went about everyday together and do so for all eternity. She had no method, her disposition of heart was of humility.
I don’t know how much of this is relevant and I am sure you are thoroughly sick of my posting, it would be far better if I just go away and stop being a fly in the cp ointment, but this prayer methods grates on me and it does so because while it is good to avail ourselves of God’s grace as everything is grace, I am left perplexed by a method that purports to allow a soul to enter in on itself and access the Eternal God, method just cannot do this.
In my Living Prayer of life.
Rather when He indwells us it is not that we may enter into the centre of our soul, but that we may be drawn to Him. God desires our soul we do not desire our own soul, we desire God, but if I seek Him within myself I am immediately forced to look outward from myself. This is a mystery that cannot be contained by an inward seeking of the Risen Lord. Jesus constantly forces so gently as it seems to be guiding me out of myself until I am forgetful of the self God willing.
Contemplative prayer is not a foreign land we cannot go to, it is infact our home. What God gifts of Himself here on earth is nothing compared to the Beatific Vision where He may be truly contemplated day and night keeping watch for all eternity. Here we may only keep watch as God gifts.
I have often thought in earlier years, should I be so bold as to desire to be united to God. Yes I should be so bold, this is what God created me for, this is what God created us all for, to be united to Him. It is right and proper then to seek union with God and it doesn’t depend on itellect, nor does it depend on method, nor does it depend on material goods. It all depends on the right disposition of heart and the will of God.
What would be the right disposition of heart? It would be to desire God, but not to make the desire a god. By this I mean first of all we obey God, the first sin against God was disobedience and this disobedience arose out of pride ‘you shall be like God’. Who are we deserving of nothing that we have any right to bridge the space between man and God? To push and strive and attempt to force ourselves into heaven. No such soul is fit for heaven, it lacks meekness and humility. The disposition of soul is to watch day and night for the work of God, this soul is forever watching and waiting knowing it can do nothing for itself but avail itself of God’s mercy as everyday its sins are before it knowing all to well it is nothing like God.
Mary did not make herself perfect, she was created a perfect human being and she was firstly obedient in word and deed to God thus remaining without sin. So when He came to her to indwell her womb He became Incarnate in her because she watched and waited and was mindful of everything God was doing for her ‘regarding the lowliness of his handmaid’.
United then not only in spirit but also in flesh Mary and God went about everyday together and do so for all eternity. She had no method, her disposition of heart was of humility.
I don’t know how much of this is relevant and I am sure you are thoroughly sick of my posting, it would be far better if I just go away and stop being a fly in the cp ointment, but this prayer methods grates on me and it does so because while it is good to avail ourselves of God’s grace as everything is grace, I am left perplexed by a method that purports to allow a soul to enter in on itself and access the Eternal God, method just cannot do this.
In my Living Prayer of life.
D
DBT
Guest
I really wasn’t intending to post anything more but I just opened my book to this passage which I think is appropriate to the discussion in several ways:
Abandonment to Divine Providence:
Abandonment to Divine Providence:
Dave
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
blessedstar
The rest of your post is nothing more than your own personal opinion and not what Centering Prayer is about.
If you refuse to learn about Centering Prayer as Father Keating teaches it, and experience it for yourself, there’s no way you’re going to be accurate in describing what it is.
God Bless
Jim
Not exactly. When we become aware of distracting thoughts or even lofty thoughts of God, we are to let go of them. However, thoughts from God, once we become aware of them, they too we should let go rather than attempting to grasp onto them. St. John of the Cross teaches this. Whatever grace we receive from God, is given to us in full, and we don’t need to dwell on the thought any further. In fact to do so, we will generally add our own commentary to the thought and distort it.
Really, you need to stop telling us what Centering Prayer is. I’m not trying to be rude, but comments like this only prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
The rest of your post is nothing more than your own personal opinion and not what Centering Prayer is about.
If you refuse to learn about Centering Prayer as Father Keating teaches it, and experience it for yourself, there’s no way you’re going to be accurate in describing what it is.
God Bless
Jim
B
blessedstar
Guest
No they weren’t and nor were they practising centering prayer.
B
blessedstar
Guest
Again I am ignorant and you are not.
You’re only argument is to say I don’t know what centering prayer is, to everything I say you say ‘la la la, you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about’
You know I have the ability to read which I thank God for, and He did give me a mind to use and not to eradicate thoughts from.
It is thorougly reasonable that methods that claim as cp does be rigorously scrutinised.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Dave,
isn’t he actualy addressing “Quietism?”
Jim
isn’t he actualy addressing “Quietism?”
Jim
- Status