Has any diocese banned centering prayer?

[JimR-OCDS]

Again I am ignorant and you are not.

You’re only argument is to say I don’t know what centering prayer is, to everything I say you say ‘la la la, you’ve got no idea what you’re talking about’

You know I have the ability to read which I thank God for, and He did give me a mind to use and not to eradicate thoughts from.

It is thorougly reasonable that methods that claim as cp does be rigorously scrutinised.

Again, I’m not trying to be rude. But you continue to post inaccurate statements about what Centering Prayer is, so yes, your information is flawed.

Your reading on Centering Prayer, obvioisly does not come from Father Thomas Keating, nor does it line up with my 30 years of experience, or others who do this method of prayer.

At this point, its like trying to explain what chocolate taste like, to a person who not only has never tasted chocolate, but refuses to.

Have a nice day
Jim

 

[blessedstar]

blessedstar

Not exactly. When we become aware of distracting thoughts or even lofty thoughts of God, we are to let go of them. However, thoughts from God, once we become aware of them, they too we should let go rather than attempting to grasp onto them. St. John of the Cross teaches this. Whatever grace we receive from God, is given to us in full, and we don’t need to dwell on the thought any further. In fact to do so, we will generally add our own commentary to the thought and distort it.

God Bless
Jim

St John of the Cross would not be so ungrateful for a gift from God for to contemplate God is to ‘know’ Him and at the same time to not ‘know’ Him hence ‘nada’. It is always the case that when we think we know sdomething of God we actually know very little and there is always more, hence we know Him and do not know Him.

Herein lies the paradox St John speaks of he does not say do not accept what God gifts to you, but what he says is do not cling to it and make a god of the gift, it is not God, God is the giver of the gift in prayer.

But to simply ignore it without at least acknowledging it and thanking God for it and making prayers of thanks and praise is beynd me. To me that is just plain ungrateful.What sort of method teaches God’s children to be ungrateful.

What has been distorted is the teachings of St John of the Cross.

I know what chocolate tastes like and I also have read both arguments for and against cp including Fr Keating. My conscience is as it is.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St John of the Cross would not be so ungrateful for a gift from God for to contemplate God is to ‘know’ Him and at the same time to not ‘know’ Him hence ‘nada’. It is always the case that when we think we know sdomething of God we actually know very little and there is always more, hence we know Him and do not know Him.

Herein lies the paradox St John speaks of he does not say do not accept what God gifts to you, but what he says is do not cling to it and make a god of the gift, it is not God, God is the giver of the gift in prayer.

But to simply ignore it without at least acknowledging it and thanking God for it and making prayers of thanks and praise is beynd me. To me that is just plain ungrateful.What sort of method teaches God’s children to be ungrateful.

St John of the Cross says that if we even receive a vision of Christ, we are to ignore it, return to your prayer. For once you become aware of the vision, you have already received the fullness of grace that God was giving you. At that point, to continue to dwell on it, will only add your own commentary and distort it.

Jim

 

[blessedstar]

St John of the Cross says that if we even receive a vision of Christ, we are to ignore it, return to your prayer. For once you become aware of the vision, you have already received the fullness of grace that God was giving you. At that point, to continue to dwell on it, will only add your own commentary and distort it.

Jim

True man is flawed and if a soul receives a vision words and expression of it distort as do processing it over and over in the mind, however its essence is never lost, as you say once it has been seen the grace has been received. What I am extremely perturbed by is that the soul does not thank and praise God. You say go back to prayer, that is true, but what prayer will that be?

No wonder Mary and Jesus appear to little children, they don’t make such a complex situations for themselves and are ready to be grateful to God and those around them, this is true humility.

Wasn’t St John of the Cross so grateful and enamoured with God it exploded into poetry? Wasn’t this his thanks and gratefullness to God?

Didn;'t Mary give her Magnificat to thank and praise God?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t know how Centering Prayer could ever be banned if no one agrees on what it is.

 

[DBT]

Dave,
isn’t he actualy addressing “Quietism?”

Jim

To be honest, I really don’t know what anyone is talking about anymore and I’m not really sure why I keep chiming in

Here’s the bottom-line for me:

1. The degree to which anyone uses a method of any kind to seek an altered state of consciousness strictly for the felt sensation and devoid of any active participation in the sacraments of the Church is, imo, practicing Quietism. By nature, these souls deny mortification, purgation and growth in the practice of virtue . . . which is precisely what true contemplation brings. This is the pseudo-contemplation St. Teresa warned against and what I lovingly refer to as navel gazing.

I think there is a risk that CP could lead some souls down this path if pursued wrongly as a means to take the gift of contemplation rather than lovingly receive what is given. I have to admit that I was at one time susceptible to this which is why I reflexively recoil anytime I hear a poster around here ask “How do I begin a prayer life” and someone responds “Do centering prayer.” St. Teresa speaks at great lengths that there is a time and place in the spiritual life to seek inner stillness . . . the beginning isn’t that time. I know that first hand from the school of hard knocks.

1. However, turning away from thoughts as a means of active recollection . . . of habitually placing oneself in the presence of God . . . is a big part of the teaching on the interior life. If this is what one is doing with CP, then I see no problem with it.

St. John of the Cross speaks of this at great length in the Ascent of Mt. Carmel, Book 3, chapters 1-15. I tend to view these chapters as the theology behind what the author of the “Cloud of Unknowing” taught. We can think of it as praying without ceasing . . . but in a highly simplified, often wordless way.

1. Going back to what was said a long time ago, intent is everything and authenticity in one’s way of prayer is proved by growth in virtue and transformation in love. That’s the real test.

I’m sure this probably confused the matter even more

Dave

 

[blessedstar]

I don’t know how Centering Prayer could ever be banned if no one agrees on what it is.

wonderful!

Advice has been given by the Congregation of the Doctrine of faith as to how far to pursue the depths of this cp. If it is used to simply place oneself in God’s Presence and then let God conduct the prayer thereafter with the soul participating in this ‘loving conversation between friends’ or as can be said between ‘lover and Beloved’ , or ‘servant and Master’ then this is a level that is acceptable, but when it is practised to the exclusion of participating in conversation this opens the door to error and the floodgates open and this is not acceptable, so on the whole it is not acceptable as it relies on the individual soul who may or may not have a spiritual director, who may or may not be advanced in prayer, who may or may not be physcologically adept to this method, who may or may not be led into serious humanistic error believing they experience God and on the list goes of dnagers and problems.

At the end of the day cp will not lead to contemplation, the disposition of the heart and the will of God will determine that.

It is enough for me to hope to see it cease, but I am not the Pope and so I await the Majesterium, until then I am free to believe as I do as is Jim free to believe as he does.

In my Living Prayer of life

 

[blessedstar]

To be honest, I really don’t know what anyone is talking about anymore and I’m not really sure why I keep chiming in

Dave

Neither do I Dave i feel like I’m chasing my tail up a tree! What you posted made me laugh so much. I truly dislike intellectualism that takes ones own self knowledge too seriously. I have to laugh at myself otherwise I would be far too serious. I have to laugh ta others also otherwise it would be the case that we would disappear up a spout. You are great Dave and everytime you post I have to smile.

Great post by the way

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[TOP]

wonderful!

Advice has been given by the Congregation of the Doctrine of faith as to how far to pursue the depths of this cp. If it is used to simply place oneself in God’s Presence and then let God conduct the prayer thereafter with the soul participating in this ‘loving conversation between friends’ or as can be said between ‘lover and Beloved’ , or ‘servant and Master’ then this is a level that is acceptable, but when it is practised to the exclusion of participating in conversation this opens the door to error and the floodgates open and this is not acceptable, so on the whole it is not acceptable as it relies on the individual soul who may or may not have a spiritual director, who may or may not be advanced in prayer, who may or may not be physcologically adept to this method, who may or may not be led into serious humanistic error believing they experience God and on the list goes of dnagers and problems.

It is enough for me to hope to see it cease, but I am not the Pope and so I await the Majesterium, until then I am free to believe as I do as is Jim free to believe as he does.

In my Living Prayer of life

This is kind of freaky. Have anyone of you prayed for weeks at a time? What happened to you? Tim

 

[blessedstar]

This is kind of freaky. Have anyone of you prayed for weeks at a time? What happened to you? Tim

I pray , but I also pray with my life in everything I do, so that is constant prayer without ceasing. Good things have happened to me whether that be the cross or reprieve from the cross.

What do you mean Tim?

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[TOP]

I pray , but I also pray with my life in everything I do, so that is constant prayer without ceasing. Good things have happened to me whether that be the cross or reprieve from the cross.

What do you mean Tim?

In the Living Prayer of my life

You mentioned “floodgates opening”. It caught my interest. I lack the discernment to know what comes through the gates. I got beatup pretty bad. Tim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Beautiful

By the way I don’t think there is anything wrong with your mind or your concentration. A mind likes yours goes at a hundred miles an hour and from time to time needs to slow down only to rev up again to a hundred miles an hour! There is a time for everything, slow and fast.

In the Living Prayer of my life

Agreed… there is nothing wrong with my mind. It is not unusual for me after a heavy day of mental concentration to find that my reasoning mind just starts to close off and grind to near halt. I can accept this; however it can sometimes disconsert others:juggle: which is entirely understandable if I just cannot concentrate on a conversation for example. No big deal really.

Cheers! Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_5.gif iHs

 

[blessedstar]

You mentioned “floodgates opening”. It caught my interest. I lack the discernment to know what comes through the gates. I got beatup pretty bad. Tim

Well I don’t think you do lack the discernment. You know what forces through the gates, the ‘self’ and also satan.

Prayer is where the battle is thrashed out by God’s grace and in prayer God creates the Victory by the merits of His Cross and Ressurection.

 

[TOP]

Well I don’t think you do lack the discernment. You know what forces through the gates, the ‘self’ and also satan.

Prayer is where the battle is thrashed out by God’s grace and in prayer God creates the Victory by the merits of His Cross and Ressurection.

It was so clever, to make me believe my offering was lacking and not worthy. That I had been judged on the matter. I had thought I was in communion for days. It still bothers me. Tim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Yes, John, I knew you’d see the heart of the matter.

What frustrates me in these discussions is that we’re focused on the wrong thing and fail to see the forest through the trees.

Everyone is looking at the “means” . . . God cares about the “end” – union with Him. Any means can bring a soul to the true emptiness (i.e. contemplation) described in my previous post just as any means can bring one to false emptiness (i.e. pseudo-contemplation or navel gazing).

What matters is:

• the intention of the soul
• the grace by which God leads it to a specific way of prayer
• and the effects/fruits/virtue produced by that way of prayer

If the rosary leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If lectio leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If vocal prayer leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If simple gazing on Him before the tabernacle leads a soul to union; God rejoices. And yes, dare I say it, if CP leads a soul to union; God rejoices.

Dave.

Hi Dave…I agree with your comments…St. Teresa of Avila and I think it was in the Interior Castle warned her nuns that what she wrote about, the different mansions, should not be considered the be all and end all of prayer and that in “my Father’s House there are many mansions”. St. Teresa wrote of a way that she had observed as the most common way and of her own personal experiences in the ‘higher mansions’. Can a person be led any other way than outlined by the great classical spiritual writers…of course, for “nothing is impossible to God”.
I dont really understand all about CP although I have read about some of it. I think that perhaps the objection of The Church lay with any notion that an effort to 'blank the mind" without an active spirituality and all it implies, is simply a blank mind which any person at all can achieve - even athiests and pagans. The “Jesus Prayer” to my mind follows CP in that the word “Jesus” is spoken in the mind repetively, also to a lesser degree the Rosary and Chaplet of Mercy.
The Church, I think, wants people to understand that any form of prayer or going aside to pray or meditate, without an active spiritual life will not, in all probability in the normal course, raise one to contemplation which is a sheer gift of God. It cannot be precipitated/earned etc. in any way. It is gift. And that a blanking of the mind, is simply a blank mind. The stillness of the senses and of memory and understanding, or their suspension as it is termed, is another matter altogether and is accompanied by growth in virtue and love of God and neighbour and is an ‘action’ of Graced Faith.

But I really am not conversant with CP, although I know a couple of people who practise it who are to my mind very holy and actively living a rich spiritual life daily.

Also, when not speaking ex cathedra, The Church in the past has needed to amend her statements at times having initiallly arrived at an incorrect conclusion. The statements made re CP were never ex cathedra and I think were simply a warning by The Church and a condemnation of certain understandings and concepts connected connected to CP…from what I understand and limited.
“The Jesus Prayer” which The Church advocates could be called the repitition of a mantra…the mantra being the Name of Jesus.

Blessings and regards…Barb
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_14_5.gifJMJ

 

[the_phoenix]

ON ACCEPTING GOD’S GIFTS AND INSPIRATIONS DURING PRAYER

True man is flawed and if a soul receives a vision words and expression of it distort as do processing it over and over in the mind, however its essence is never lost, as you say once it has been seen the grace has been received. What I am extremely perturbed by is that the soul does not thank and praise God. You say go back to prayer, that is true, but what prayer will that be?

No wonder Mary and Jesus appear to little children, they don’t make such a complex situations for themselves and are ready to be grateful to God and those around them, this is true humility.

Wasn’t St John of the Cross so grateful and enamoured with God it exploded into poetry? Wasn’t this his thanks and gratefullness to God?

Didn;'t Mary give her Magnificat to thank and praise God?

Here is how the Blessed Mother handled gifts of God:

“But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart.” – Luke 2:19

And the men to whom Our Risen Lord appeared on the road to Emmaus:

“And their eyes were opened, and they knew him: and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in this way, and opened to us the scriptures? 33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them, 34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.”

I’m glad they went and witnessed, because now I have an awesome Bible passage to read.

As well, the three Fatima children Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta could have simply ignored Our Lady of the Rosary’s request to return to the Cova da Iria on the 13th of every month.

And St. Faustina could have put out of her mind the wish of Our Merciful Savior to have an image of the Divine Mercy painted … “Divine Mercy Sunday?” A devotion encouraging reception of the Sacraments? Now where did THAT idea come from? If it came as a Divine Interruption of St. Faustina’s prayer experience, well, just imagine the consequences of dwelling on such a thing! And the Chaplet of Divine Mercy that was granted as a mystical gift … She could have simply been content with the Rosary, eh?

But wait, wasn’t the Rosary shown to St. Dominic during a mystical experience in which he was called on to spread devotion to it? He could have shaken his head to recollect his thoughts and proceeded on back to trusty old Lectio Divina …

And the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the form it is known today inspired by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque’s vision? Couldn’t she have just forgotten or ignored what she had seen and settled for a more tried-and-true prayer method instead?

~~ the phoenix

 

[blessedstar]

ON ACCEPTING GOD’S GIFTS AND INSPIRATIONS DURING PRAYER

Here is how the Blessed Mother handled gifts of God:

“But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart.” – Luke 2:19

And the men to whom Our Risen Lord appeared on the road to Emmaus:

“And their eyes were opened, and they knew him: and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in this way, and opened to us the scriptures? 33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them, 34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.”

I’m glad they went and witnessed, because now I have an awesome Bible passage to read.

As well, the three Fatima children Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta could have simply ignored Our Lady of the Rosary’s request to return to the Cova da Iria on the 13th of every month.

And St. Faustina could have put out of her mind the wish of Our Merciful Savior to have an image of the Divine Mercy painted … “Divine Mercy Sunday?” A devotion encouraging reception of the Sacraments? Now where did THAT idea come from? If it came as a Divine Interruption of St. Faustina’s prayer experience, well, just imagine the consequences of dwelling on such a thing! And the Chaplet of Divine Mercy that was granted as a mystical gift … She could have simply been content with the Rosary, eh?

But wait, wasn’t the Rosary shown to St. Dominic during a mystical experience in which he was called on to spread devotion to it? He could have shaken his head to recollect his thoughts and proceeded on back to trusty old Lectio Divina …

And the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the form it is known today inspired by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque’s vision? Couldn’t she have just forgotten or ignored what she had seen and settled for a more tried-and-true prayer method instead?

~~ the phoenix

A true gift from God cannot be forgotten, nor put out of the mind and praise and thanksgiving follow as a natural movement of the heart. Moreover God persists where men give up.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[TOP]

A true gift from God cannot be forgotten, nor put out of the mind and praise and thanksgiving follow as a natural movement of the heart.

My Priest reminded me that St. Paul took 3 years before he acted. Tim

 

[blessedstar]

My Priest reminded me that St. Paul took 3 years before he acted. Tim

Yes God works with us not against us; 3 years is a blink of an eye for God, for St Paul it took that time for him to discern what had been gifted to him and that took thought, prayer and recalling. It al;so took repeated graces from God.

In the Living Prayer of my life.

 

[ncjohn]

If the rosary leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If lectio leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If vocal prayer leads a soul to union; God rejoices. If simple gazing on Him before the tabernacle leads a soul to union; God rejoices. And yes, dare I say it, if CP leads a soul to union; God rejoices.

Dave.

Exactly Dave. And as you noted in your quote from Abandonment to Divine Providence:
Abandonment to Divine Providence:

We must hold fast to what he chooses and make no choice for ourselves, yet be eager to revere and love whatever he fixes upon for other people.

Unfortunately, what I see happening here is the same phenomenon I see in other areas of this site. People take on their particular preferences as the “one right way” as if it were doctrine. We see it in thread after thread on topics such as receiving in the hand/on the tongue; preferring Mass in Latin or the vernacular; receiving standing or kneeling; from the priest or from an EMHC; whether or not ALL women are called to wear headcoverings; ad infinitum.

The opinions on these subjects of preference, and how we feel called by God to express our devotion, instead become matters of great division as we make judgments about each other’s devotion and piety. Where the Church calls us to charity and a recognition that we are a people bound to unity even in our diversity, many feel strongly that that unity can only be with perfect lockstep and a “one size fits all” spirituality. I find that sad, but continue to know that in the end God recognizes the intent of our hearts and that He will make strong even what we unknowingly weaken in our best but frail attempts to please Him.

As I leave this topic, I wish peace to all here.