Has Anyone anything to say about the Adoremus Hymnal

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Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings FrDavid96,

I sure would appreciate it if you do happen to run across anything.

I understood what you are describing and this makes sense to me. I had another question, have you heard of the gradual and do you use this? [Oh anyone else is welcome to chime in on this by the way.]

I was thinking maybe of doing the Psalms from the gradual since those do sound like what they are supposed to, but I had wondered if they had English versions of it or if everthing was still done in Latin. I don’t think it would be helpful to do the responsorial psalm in Latin for Masses as most of the Congregation does not understand it, even though they have expressed a desire and interest for more Latin in the services in regards to music, hence this having to look for a new hymnal, of which I am very glad to comply. 😃

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Same problem here.

I have not seen a gradual in English. Doesn’t mean they’re not out there, only that I haven’t seen any. Maybe I just haven’t been looking in the right place?
 
Greetings FrDavid96,

Well if you find anything that meets these criteria of which I am of similiar and like mind, do please let me know.

Oh do you have any thoughts on the Respond and Acclaim arrangements of the Pslams and the Gospel Acclamation? What do you use presently in your parish?

Thanks.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Greetings FrDavid96,

Perhaps I can ask on musicsacra forum and if I get anything, I will be glad to pass that information on to you.

I notice that you do not accept personal messages, so I will post what ever I do find in this thread. My problem is that my new computer is in the shop getting repaired, so I won’t be able to log onto that forum for awhile. [My computer I am using is running Windows98 and dial up, it takes forever to load that forum.]

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
FrDavid96 said:
The Vatican II hymnal: still looking at it. I’ve heard their versions of the R. Psalms. I don’t like them at all—very difficult to sing. The end of the lines is exactly what someone would expect them “not” to be. The do-not-at-all flow like proper chant.
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I have to disagree. I find them extremely easy to sing by sight-reading — and I’m not a professional singer either. I’m not an expert on chant, so perhaps they are somewhat irregular, I don’t know. I do know that I find them much, much more natural to sing than stuff found in Respond and Acclaim - which is what many parishes around here use.
 
The Vatican II hymnal: still looking at it. I’ve heard their versions of the R. Psalms. I don’t like them at all—very difficult to sing. The end of the lines is exactly what someone would expect them “not” to be. The do-not-at-all flow like proper chant.
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I have to respectfully disagree. I’ve been using the Chabanel Psalms since 2008: my priest, choir, and congregation LOVE them. At first, I would just play the melody once on the organ, and the people would somehow “instantly” remember the tune. Now, we have the Vatican II Hymnal, which has the Chabanel Psalms inside them, so the congregation can look at the melodies (which is not necessary, but is very nice). I also love that all the Propers, Readings, Alleluias, Hymns, etc. are all inside the Vatican II Hymnal, and I love all the English settings (we have not used many of the Latin/Greek settings, but there are like 60 pages of these). In short, I agree with every word of this priest:
holyrosarylander.com/November132011.html
 
Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings FrDavid96,

Well if you find anything that meets these criteria of which I am of similiar and like mind, do please let me know.

Oh do you have any thoughts on the Respond and Acclaim arrangements of the Pslams and the Gospel Acclamation? What do you use presently in your parish?

Thanks.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Respond and Acclaim is something with which I’m not familiar.

I’ve had a lot of help in considering new hymnals, and my “committee” knows not to bother with any of the modern sounding stuff. Now, I’m not saying it is, only that IF it is, that would explain why it never came up.
 
Depending on what you are looking for, here are some other titles to consider:

Parish Book of Chant

English Gradual (this is for the Anglican Use within the Roman Rite, but still usable)

Gregorian chant resources at GIA(missals, libers, etc)

Motecta Trium Vocum (This is more for Communion meditationals sung by the choir)

The men’s Gregorian chant group I sing in uses the MTV, and the parishes we sing at LOVE it. At the most recent Mass we sang for (a TLM wedding Mass), the priest came up afterwards to the choir loft and told us it was heavenly. i’m not bragging, I’m just saying the music is outstanding, even when done by amateurs.

If you are wanting to go really far out, then you can always consider the Gregorian Missal (soon to be reissued) that has the Propers of the Mass (Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion chants) instead of the Entrance Hymn, Responsorial Psalm,Offertory hymn, and Communion Hymn respectively (note, the Propers are part of the Mass, the hymns are secondary substitutes). That is on the GIA site linked above. It does not have the readings (just a reference for each reading) because it assumes you will listen to the readings at Mass in the vernacular.
 
Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings to Catholic Answers Forum,

I am considering getting the Adoremus Hymnal as it is more traditional and has a great deal of Latin in it. What I am concerned with does it have Responsorial Psalms in the hymnal. I am going to be getting the organ edition. Has anyone used this hymnal before? What do you have to say about this? Is the the only hymnal out there that is mainly traditional with a less emphasis on contemporary music?
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I will never again use the Adoremus hymnal, because they designed it so that each hymn requires a page turn. Even if the hymn is only three lines long, it still requires a page turn.

The Church Music Association of America has done a comparison between hymn tunes in 3-4 books:
musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/5738/

I prefer the Vatican II Hymnal not only because the hymns are BETTER and more Catholic (the St. Michael’s has St. Louis Jesuit hymns), but mainly because it has the complete readings for years A, B, and C. You are right that Vatican II and Adoremus are the only “traditional” hymnals, but what is nice about Vatican II is that it has three times as many Masses as Adoremus.
 
FrDavid96 said:
At the risk of derailing the thread…

Not necessarily. I’d be happy to find any source that has all the psalms of the year in an easy to learn, “natural sounding” chant form. The kind of thing that people can use the missallettes to read the words but just follow along with the chant without needing to have the notes (the cantor can do that alone).

I would rather not get parish hymnals that have the lectionary readings in them, because there’s too much possibility that the Lectionary will change. I want more “permanent” hymnals that we don’t have to think about replacing every few years, or that have lectionary readings that just “don’t apply anymore, so ignore the whole section.”
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I see. I really don’t know of anything besides the Chabanel psalms.
Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings YoungTradCath,

Thank you so much for replying to my inquirires yesterday.

I am looking for Latin hymns too. I may have to just order one of these these just to look it over.

Oh and thanks for the other links. I am a member of musicsacra forums, it has been awhile since I have logged back in.

Okay option 4 in the GIRM have not read the new GIRM what is that?

And one more question, if you were to say what are the drawbacks of Vatican II hymanl what would they be? I just want a full picture, thanks.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit*
Option 4 is how the music got the baby thrown out with the bathwater. It’s what allows anything and everything music-wise at mass.

Drawbacks? Not lots of Latin hymns, but the classics are there, and LOTS of ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, etc.) settings in Latin/Greek.
Anathama Sit;8912130:
Greetings FrDavid96,

I sure would appreciate it if you do happen to run across anything.

I understood what you are describing and this makes sense to me. I had another question, have you heard of the gradual and do you use this? [Oh anyone else is welcome to chime in on this by the way.]

I was thinking maybe of doing the Psalms from the gradual since those do sound like what they are supposed to, but I had wondered if they had English versions of it or if everthing was still done in Latin. I don’t think it would be helpful to do the responsorial psalm in Latin for Masses as most of the Congregation does not understand it, even though they have expressed a desire and interest for more Latin in the services in regards to music, hence this having to look for a new hymnal, of which I am very glad to comply. 😃

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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There are no responsorial psalms in the Roman Gradual. They are the graduals (which is where the RG got its name), which the responsorial psalms take the place of. The gradual is not responsorial at all, it is sung completely by the choir. They are quite beautiful although not used often at all in the OF, although the Pope has been using them as of late.
FrDavid96 said:
Same problem here.

I have not seen a gradual in English. Doesn’t mean they’re not out there, only that I haven’t seen any. Maybe I just haven’t been looking in the right place?
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GREGORIAN MISSAL. Read the quote below and follow the instructions from Windmill. The Gregorian Missal is a direct English translation of the Latin Roman Gradual of 1974, and is free online. Please note, however, that no Gradual contains responsorial psalms, only the graduals (Gradual is the book that contains the graduals and other antiphons, hard to keep it straight); resp. psalms are only a replacement for the “first option,” which is the graduals.
Windmill said:
Depending on what you are looking for, here are some other titles to consider:

Parish Book of Chant
Click to expand...
English Gradual (this is for the Anglican Use within the Roman Rite, but still usable)

Gregorian chant resources at GIA(missals, libers, etc)

Motecta Trium Vocum (This is more for Communion meditationals sung by the choir)

The men’s Gregorian chant group I sing in uses the MTV, and the parishes we sing at LOVE it. At the most recent Mass we sang for (a TLM wedding Mass), the priest came up afterwards to the choir loft and told us it was heavenly. i’m not bragging, I’m just saying the music is outstanding, even when done by amateurs.

If you are wanting to go really far out, then you can always consider the Gregorian Missal (soon to be reissued) that has the Propers of the Mass (Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion chants) instead of the Entrance Hymn, Responsorial Psalm,Offertory hymn, and Communion Hymn respectively (note, the Propers are part of the Mass, the hymns are secondary substitutes). That is on the GIA site linked above. It does not have the readings (just a reference for each reading) because it assumes you will listen to the readings at Mass in the vernacular.
Good advice.
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Greetings Windmill,

Thanks for providing those links. I will take a look at them. Do you have a link for the Gregorian Missal to be released?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Greetings ClementMcKay,

With the Vatican II Mass settings are they contemporary sounding? I want more traditinal sounding things. What is the price I am looking at for this book? I may go ahead and get three hymannals and take out what sounds good and use those.

If the Mass settings in the Vatican II book are traditional sounding, I may just go ahead and get the Vatican II hymanl just for the Mass settings.

Do they have a site where I can listen to an MP3 of these? If you have time, can you list the Mass settings the Vatican II book uses?

Thanks.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Okay so my next question, and so sorry I have so many questions. I would rather use the gradual at Mass, Father is open to this.

Can this be done and kept within the dictates of GIRM?

If So where can I find the gradual accompanient book?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Greetings ClementMcKay,

I guess what I am going to do is to expose some ignorance. HOw would I use that in Mass in a practical setting. I am new to the gradual and kind of need a basic run down.

If you have time I so would appreciate the help and pointers.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings ClementMcKay,

I guess what I am going to do is to expose some ignorance. HOw would I use that in Mass in a practical setting. I am new to the gradual and kind of need a basic run down.

If you have time I so would appreciate the help and pointers.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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You just start chanting it after the first reading. It’s one whole unit of music, there are no refrains/responses, no one has to respond to anything. It would be just like singing a random hymn after the first reading, except, well, it isn’t a hymn. But on a technical level, it would be the same. After the gradual, the second reading commences.
 
Anathema,

The Gregorian Missal still needs to incorporate the new translations. However, the Latin Propers are (of course) still appropriate for Mass. The Ordinary of the Mass and prayers are also in need of translation, but the Latin would still be appropriate. This book is mainly for the people to follow along with throughout the whole Mass.

The Graduale Romanum has all the propers for each day (feasts, ferials, and solemnities). It also has the chants for all the Masses (I-XII) (Ordinary parts). It is more for the schola/choir. It has the sung parts in Gregorian neumes.

If you wanted to use the Graduale Romanum, what you’d need to do is provide some sort of worship aid for the people to follow along in the vernacular since they would likely not be singing it. You shouldn’t buy a ton of Gregorian Missals because they contain the old translation. You might as well wait for those.

You’d sing the Introit during the procession/incensation, the Gradual after the First reading, the Offertory just after the people sit following the Credo, the Communion Hymn just after the Priest’s Communion at the altar.

If you want an organ accompaniment, I’d try this:

Nova Organi Harmonia

These accompaniments composed by some Belgian seminarians during WWII are far superior to the discordant organ parts of the Adoremus Hymnal. I cringe just thinking about some of the AH’s bad arrangements to classic Latin Ordinaries. These are also free.

I also wouldn’t buy any of Solesmes’s organ accompaniments. They are inferior, IMHO.
 
Anathama_Sit said:
Greetings ClementMcKay,

With the Vatican II Mass settings are they contemporary sounding? I want more traditinal sounding things. What is the price I am looking at for this book? I may go ahead and get three hymannals and take out what sounds good and use those.

If the Mass settings in the Vatican II book are traditional sounding, I may just go ahead and get the Vatican II hymanl just for the Mass settings.

Do they have a site where I can listen to an MP3 of these? If you have time, can you list the Mass settings the Vatican II book uses?

Thanks.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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The settings in the VII hymnal are NOT contemporary sounding in any way. They are the same settings as are in the Roman Gradual itself, actually.

The pricing can be viewed here, as it’s on a sliding scale: ccwatershed.org/vatican/order/

The VII Hymnal contains he ICEL setting, along with lots more like Mass I, Mass VIII, Mass IX, Mass X, Mass XI, Mass XII, Mass XIII, Mass XVII along with bits of other numbered settings. All of the numbered settings are right out of the Vatican edition of the Roman Gradual, so they are completely legit. The rest of the music can be seen here: ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/11/08/16/18-20-45_0.pdf

Please do go through that PDF; many of your questions will be answered.
Anathama_Sit said:
Okay so my next question, and so sorry I have so many questions. I would rather use the gradual at Mass, Father is open to this.

Can this be done and kept within the dictates of GIRM?

If So where can I find the gradual accompanient book?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
Click to expand...
The gradual, actually, is the first choice for the music after the first reading. The responsorial psalm replaces the gradual. The gradual never replaces the psalm. The psalm is always the second choice.

There is no gradual “accompaniment book.” The graduals are in the Graduale Romanum in Latin, and the English and Latin versions can be found in the Gregorian Missal, which is essentially the Graduale Romanum with an English translation of it included.

You see, this is how the ideal mass works as far as music goes:

Introit, from Graudale or an equivalent source
Kyrie
Gloria
Credo
Offertory chant, from the Graduale or an equivalent source
Sanctus
Agnus Dei
Communion chant, from the Graduale or an equivalent source.

The Graduale Romanum is entirely in Latin. The Gregorian Missal was written by the monks of Solesmes Abbey in France, which includes the Latin as set to music (exactly the same as it appears in the GR), with an English translation on the side not set to music.

The Gregorian Missal: musicasacra.com/books/gregorianmissal-eng.pdf

If you want the English translation of the Graduale Romanum set to music, try the Simple English Propers: musicasacra.com/books/simple_english_propers.pdf

I know this is all very confusing at first, but it will make sense eventually.
 
If you wanted to use the Graduale Romanum, what you’d need to do is provide some sort of worship aid for the people to follow along in the vernacular since they would likely not be singing it. You shouldn’t buy a ton of Gregorian Missals because they contain the old translation. You might as well wait for those.
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Actually, if you choose the Vatican II Hymnal, all the Propers are included (Introitus, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion) in Latin/English in addition to Responsorial Psalm, all the readings, etc. No other hymnal that I’ve ever seen has this. The St. Michael’s does not, nor does Adoremus, nor does GIA Worship IV, etc. Remember, if they encourage the Propers to be sung, they cannot sell you their modern garbage! For years, we printed out translations of the propers. We no longer do this, thanks to the Vatican II Hymnal. Anathanma Sit, why not watch the promo video? ccwatershed.org/YouTube/
 
FrDavid96 said:
I would rather not get parish hymnals that have the lectionary readings in them, because there’s too much possibility that the Lectionary will change. I want more “permanent” hymnals that we don’t have to think about replacing every few years, or that have lectionary readings that just “don’t apply anymore, so ignore the whole section.”
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http://musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/63230
**
Date: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:24 AM

There is no plan to do a major revision of the Lectionary at this time. There are some minor adjustments that will be made to the Lectionary texts, but those will not result in anything more than a reprint of the current edition, and parishes will only need to purchase them when they are ready to replace worn-out volumes, which happens with all liturgical books at some time.

Msgr. Rick Hilgartner
Executive Director
Secretariat of Divine Worship
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
3211 4th St. NE
Washington, DC 20017
**
 
Greetings YoungTradCath,

Thanks for this simple explanation. This does help.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
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